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Buffer posted 8/4/2020 00:03 AM

Well said Old Truck.^^^^ The children do need to now the truth, but not the sex acts or the rebuttal.
One day at a time
Buffer

Bigger posted 8/4/2020 06:12 AM

First off: Arguing like that in front of the young adults is a definite no-no.
Second: Details of the sex has no place at all in front of the young adults. No place at all.

Do they deserve to know? Well… yes. Definitely. They are stakeholders in the marriage and this marriage is being threatened by what’s going on. They deserve to know, but a) they don’t need the details and b) they don’t need to take sides. Plus, as stakeholders they can possibly influence your WW to do right, or even help you with your decisions.
This is the second time you have said things in front of the boys that you yourself acknowledge were not appropriate. I think you need to talk to them and make it clear that you know that what you said wasn’t appropriate.

I think we are dancing around the hot porridge here…
Why are you so frustrated and angry?

I think I know why: There hasn’t been any development in the one area that really matters. There is no progress. Your wife thinks that what she has already told you is enough and thinks that if she simply waits you will calm down and learn to live with the big pink elephant in the room. You on the other hand can’t move on without knowing OM name…

We have already given you tools to find his name OR to confirm your WW doesn’t know his name.
Might not be tools you like or want to use (poly, hypnosis…) but they beat hands-down blowing up in front of your kids.

What is it you fear? What’s holding you back?
Pressing for resolve might actually press you further towards divorce, but its also IMHO the ONLY WAY you have a chance to reconcile. The moment your wife is there in front of you totally devoid of secrets and holding nothing back on the infidelity is the moment your marriage finally has some chance of survival. It’s also the moment you can decide on R or D on the correct basis.

keptmyword posted 8/4/2020 17:11 PM

As several have already said, unhinged arguments in front of the kids is not healthy for them - or for you.

Your anguish, pain, and anger are well understood and all of us here have felt what you are feeling.

Your wife, if she even has the ability, should be able to understand your anger, pain, and lashing out with those detailed comments that are meant to expose and embarrass her.

They are the result of the pain you feel from being betrayed, being deceived, being lied to, and her using your trust in her to get away with it all.

The willing betrayal of trust is the greatest sin of all sins and the greatest wrong of all wrongs.

And it hurts beyond words when that betrayal is from the very one who gave the greatest vow of trust to our very eyes.

The barbed comments she made to you about the sex with the POS guy were said out of her anger for the following reason:

She got caught.

She got caught by the very person who was never supposed to find out.

She got caught doing and being the very opposite of the most solemn vows she ever gave in her life.

And by betraying the greatest vows one ever makes in their one life they have here, she now feels even more empty and invalidated than ever before.

The fact that her affair with this person was nothing more than a hopeless attempt to garner some sense of validation-thru-sex-for-praise is now exposed as an empty, pathetic, and humiliating act.

That is an immense amount of personal failure to face for some one who does things like this so they don’t have to face themselves and their personal failures.

Based on reading this thread, I can confidently say my XWW acted almost identically to how your WW is acting.

I wish I was able to give you advice to somehow get her to “See the light”.

Unfortunately, there is no such advice.

There isn’t any because none of what she has done has anything to do with you or your marriage.

There is really nothing you can do to “open her eyes” or have a “come to Jesus” moment where she clearly sees how horrifically she has been acting and how it has affected the very people she vowed to care for and protect the most.

Only she can do that.

Now, you must ask yourself how long you want to wait or if you are willing to wait at all for her to “come to reality” and see what she has done.

Some realize it right away after being caught, some take a while before they see the truth of themselves, and some will cling to excuses and blameshifting for the rest of their lives.

I’m seven years from divorce being final, my XWW is remarried, and she is the same contempt-filled, blameshifting, emotionally-immature victim she has always been.

She has never even apologized to our children for anything.

There is nothing within her that will ever get her beyond the excuses, blaming, and reactionary anger when in a position where she has to face herself and her behavior.

It was much easier for me to think of mine and my kids future and make decisions when I came to the realization that there was simply nothing I could do to get my XWW to see herself because she did not want to see herself.

My suggestion is to start thinking in those terms where your WW’s irrational attitude is not something you can change.

The ONLY thing you CAN change is what YOU are willing to tolerate or accept or not tolerate or accept.

All the arguments and hurtful words are not going to make you, or her, feel any better nor get you anywhere outside of this.

JS84 posted 8/5/2020 00:07 AM

I don't understand why you keep engaging with her at all. And almost adults or not, neither one of you should be acting like that in front of your kids.

If you know you're not going to reconcile then there really aren't more than a handful of topics you should even be discussing with your wife. And even those discussions should be at a minimum.

I don't remember all the specifics of your story, but you should file by now if you haven't. Let the lawyers do more of the talking for you.

KingofNothing posted 8/5/2020 14:22 PM

The last argument (that was in the presence of the kids) I was VERY angry and so was she and I said something along the lines of "maybe if you hadn;t fucked this guy and swallowed his cum..." So, yes - those are facts, and I can't either stop envisioning that or take back that I said that with the kids right there, but she is saying that me doing that is hurting the kids.

To repeat a statement I've made in this thread before: that could have gone better.

I know money is tight and you may not have benefits at the moment, but IC must be in your future. You, sir, as much as I am on your side and think you are being abused, have an anger management problem. I know this-- I've been there myself. You are becoming your own worst enemy in these exchanges. Every time you have an explosion with her (like this one), you give your wife ammunition to use against you. This was no exception.

How to tell your children what's going on? Do you meant to say they don't know NOW? Sounds like people in the next county might have heard that last exchange. Still, I DO think it is appropriate to sit the children down and say, without any bullshit and provocation:

Mom has stepped out of the bounds of matrimony.

Mom had an affair with a person, and is still protecting him by not naming him (unless this has changed).

The affair was of a sexual nature, and likely emotional as well.

Mom has received some terrible advice and encouragement from people she thinks are her friends, and that has sabotaged this marriage.
We are working on resolving this, but it has been almost impossible.

Be prepared for the worst, hope for the best.
This problem we are having together does NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU AT ALL.
.
Both of us love you to death, will always support you, no matter what happens between us.

Things are moving slowly because of A) Jobs and B) COVID. I can't change that.

All these things above are true, from what I have read. Your wife can't deny this (except for the "protecting him" and "She has terrible friends" bullet points which she will deny).

congratulations on the encouraging leads, and reducing the booze. That was NOT helping.

redwing6 posted 8/10/2020 18:12 PM

BSHWI,
How are you doing? been a week since your last post. Hope you're holding up OK.

BSHusbandWI posted 8/22/2020 10:57 AM

Hi.

So we've had some family medical issues on "my side" of the family. Nothing to do with WW or me or the adultery.

WW has periodically been coming to be asking how things are going and then diving into details by trying to have a conversation.

I've been cold, disconnected. And then she gets angry about how I respond. The way I see it, is that she's not a part of "my family" any more. Except where the kids are concerned. That connection will be there for the rest of our lives. Since she's not interested in doing any of the work to R, most especially providing a way to rebuild trust - then I have my life and she has hers with (hopefully) as few intersecting parts as possible.

And the truth is, that's what has been going on since at least February. She had a totally separate life that she concealed with her toxic friend out at the bars flirting and hooking up with at least one guy. While I don't have proof that there was more than one, I have realized that it may have been multiple men over a long period of time. Again, no proof, just my intuition.

So, it makes me angry that I don't have a good answer for her when she says, "We had almost 25 years together where our families were one. No matter what happens, you can't take that away and I care about your Mom, sister blah blah" etc...

The way I feel is that she took actions and the consequences of those actions are that she is now estranged her from me and my family. I'm not sure that I owe her an explanation, but other than being a grey rock (which is difficult over a long period of time), I was hoping that I could get some advice for what to say to her so that it increases the chances that she just stops talking to me about it.

Any ideas?

BSHusbandWI posted 8/22/2020 11:05 AM

Oh and for those of you that are thinking -just file already!!

Save your fingers from typing that. I need to be able to support myself before I add divorce proceedings to the mess that is my life. Right now I'm STILL unemployed.

[This message edited by BSHusbandWI at 11:06 AM, August 22nd (Saturday)]

DictumVeritas posted 8/22/2020 11:08 AM

This may be overly simplistic, but I am a direct person under certain circumstances.

Tell her: "I was brought up to reject adulterers by a family who rejects adulterers."

I told that to my first Wife when she was suggesting we try work things out on DDay, except I used a term far more spicy than adulterer and reject is also much softer than how I put it.

ETA:

The Afrikaans terms I used do not translate well into English, but Afrikaans is a rich language to swear in.

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 11:19 AM, August 22nd (Saturday)]

Stevesn posted 8/22/2020 11:19 AM

“What you did affected not just me, in a very painful way, but everyone in my family, and I know they would not want me to share their personal information with someone who would not only betray me, a family member they care deeply about, but also someone who chooses not be honest and forthcoming about those awful choices once you made them. You have shown you’re more interested in protecting virtual strangers more than the man you vowed to love honest and cherish, so I am now choosing to protect my family from you. Why you are choosing this path is completely a mystery to my, but my only choice is to insulate those I love from the pain it has caused.”

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:21 AM, August 22nd (Saturday)]

ShutterHappy posted 8/22/2020 11:39 AM

Shorter version:

“We had 25 years together” ->

“I’m sorry you feel that way. I wish you luck in your future endeavors”

How can you just ignore me? ->

“I’m sorry you feel that way. I wish you luck in your future endeavors”

It’s all your fault! ->

“I’m sorry you feel that way. I wish you luck in your future endeavors”

They are forecasting rain tomorrow->

“I’m sorry you feel that way. I wish you luck in your future endeavors”

Etc...

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 11:40 AM, August 22nd (Saturday)]

WilliamM posted 8/22/2020 11:48 AM

Say, "After cheating on me, treating me like crap, why would you think my family would want to have you around? You destroyed your relationship with them because of how you treated me."

Buster123 posted 8/22/2020 12:20 PM

"There's a rule in my family, when you betray one of us, you're betraying ALL of us". These are just consequences of your huge betrayal.

Oh and for those of you that are thinking -just file already!!
Save your fingers from typing that. I need to be able to support myself before I add divorce proceedings to the mess that is my life. Right now I'm STILL unemployed.

As for the D, you of course know more about your situation but let me tell you that regardless of what it is chances are we've seen much worse, we just had another poster claiming the something similar (broke, no money at all) and within a week or so he came up with the money to file for D, you can still seek employment and file, they're not mutually exclusive, if there's a will, there's a way, call different attorneys, some may even take your case on a contingency basis, some posters have even borrowed some money or actually downloaded the forms and gone to the courthouse and filed themselves (not that uncommon). Stop engaging her and "keep an eye on the ball", focus on filing for D and the separation of assets.

steadychevy posted 8/22/2020 12:58 PM

BSHusband, I downloaded the forms, filled them out myself and took them to the Courthouse to register it. The form was to indicate to the court and my XWW that I intended to D.

The actual Separation Agreement, title transfers and splitting the partnership was done by a lawyer as was the Divorce document. It was over 2 years from my filing the intent until the actual D was signed off by a Judge.

Some places you can actually serve the intent to D yourself. Where I am you can't so I did have to pay for a process server. That cost me a little bit - less than $200 for his pay and mileage and XWW lives out of town.

You can get the ball rolling and look for a job at the same time, IMO.

ChamomileTea posted 8/22/2020 13:36 PM

"We had almost 25 years together where our families were one. No matter what happens, you can't take that away and I care about your Mom, sister blah blah" etc...

How about... "My mom and sister have quite enough drama in their lives right now without you getting in their business." But the better course of action, as always, is not engaging with an unrepentant cheater. They just twist up anything you say to fit their own narrative, so why give them the ammo?

Tempocontour posted 8/22/2020 17:12 PM

Simple, you tell your stbxw "I didn't destroy 25 years,YOU destroyed 25 years because of your cheating. You chose to have sex with OM. It's all on you".

ShutterHappy posted 8/22/2020 17:25 PM

They just twist up anything you say to fit their own narrative, so why give them the ammo?

I agree. Anything you say will get more replies, justifications etc...

No matter what you say, she’ll believe what she wants to believe, it’s a waste of time.

You don’t need that. What you need is to move on.

Did you ever deal with a persistent telemarketer? Time share sell pitch? If you say anything else than “not interested”, you get more time wasted.

“Not interested” = “I’m sorry you feel that way”. It’s generic, non-committed, and hard to argue with.

keptmyword posted 8/22/2020 19:12 PM

I was hoping that I could get some advice for what to say to her so that it increases the chances that she just stops talking to me about it.

When you marry someone, you marry their family as well.

When you make those most sacred vows, you make them to their family and you make them to the children you have and will have.

When you betray that person, you betray them, their family, and, worst of all, your children.

When you betray those sacred vows you made, you betray your integrity, your dignity, and your honor.

You choose to live with your betrayal - I will not.

JadedByItAll posted 8/22/2020 20:49 PM

So, it makes me angry that I don't have a good answer for her when she says, "We had almost 25 years together where our families were one. No matter what happens, you can't take that away and I care about your Mom, sister blah blah" etc...

Your response: "It is no longer any of your concern."

If she keeps badgering you after that...

Your continued response: "It is no longer any of your concern."

Or, if you really want to drive the point home: "Where was this consideration for our 25 years together while you had another man inside you?"

[This message edited by JadedByItAll at 9:01 PM, August 22nd (Saturday)]

Bigger posted 8/24/2020 05:29 AM

BSH
I think your frustrations are due to you knowing that without the truth R isn’t possible.

I think this argument over who deserves to be friends with your mom or aunt Edna if you divorce is a diversion and totally of no relevance. I have yet to see a divorce settlement that outlines who gets what friends.

Your message to your wife should be consistent:
Without me believing I have the truth there is no way I believe reconciliation is possible. Therefore divorce is the only path I have to my own recovery.

The big truth factor is that she expects you to believe she doesn’t know OM name and to-date hasn’t offered any realistic path to either (a) prove or support she doesn’t know his name and/or (b) any offer to help find his name. THIS is the deal-breaker more than anything else. If you wanted to try then you could R from her past behaviors, but you definitely cant reconcile while there is no basis for trust.

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