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Starzen posted 7/14/2020 19:40 PM

BShusbandWI, Hello. I have followed your story and I feel for you. My only advice to you, after going through my own experience, is never be surprised at the Devil they can become. I tried so many different routes with my wayward, had such a belief in him because of our 18 years together. He played the reconciliation part like a master. My good years with him did not really allow me to see what I had standing before me. I couldn’t, didn’t, and still can’t believe it two (2+?, I don’t know anymore) years later. Trying to save “US” proved to be way more damaging to me in the end, as he was just setting up to bolt, fully taking advantage of my love, my belief, my support, and my hope. As hard as it is, really, really, try to look at the situation outside of the past goodness of your relationship and see what stands before you. I happened to have an Academy award winning actor standing in front of me. It was the most absurd thing I have ever witnessed. So be cautious. I hope this turns out however you wish it to turn out. Another offering to you is, just like putting on oxygen masks on a plane, you always put your own mask on first and save yourself. Only you can decide what saving yourself means to you. There’s a good thread on this site, called something like “what would you do different”. It might be worth a look to see how posters answered after they were past their acute pain phase. In my case, the two lovebirds lasted just a bit over one year together. If I just would have sent him on his merry way back in 2014, that would have been saving myself. But everything is always easier with hindsight.

Wishing all things good for you and your family.

Starzen

paboy posted 7/14/2020 19:46 PM

Divorce still seems your best, if not your only option to save some sense of normality. Although she is finally being open, it sounds as if she is doing this to clear the floor so to speak, not so much to reconcile.

Of course remorse may eventually arrive, but then it may not.

So far, you are still leading any reconciliation processes.

If you do divorce, knowing who the AP is will diminish sooner then if you stayed.

If you do stay, you are fully aware that she needs to be all in.. As a poster posted in a previous thread about his wife's commitment.. 'I broke it, I'll fix it'.

Some thoughts for you to consider.

squid posted 7/14/2020 19:48 PM

WW has suggested that if we want to go to mediation we can and if we want to battle it out in court we can and she's not sure if she has it in her for years of work to repair something that was in such disarray for 4 years or more.

This pretty much says it all. You're beating a dead horse. I think you are realizing this. When your heart fully catches up with your head, you will know.

Peace.

Bigger posted 7/14/2020 20:03 PM

Did the OMW use the OM burner-phone to send the message?
I doubt your WW and her toxic friend had the foresight to do some elaborate secret messaging to set up your scenario.

Do you believe your wife when she says she doesn’t know his name and/or can’t contact him?

Look – with this being a local number (from our area as you put it) learning who OM becomes even more important IMHO if there is to be reconciliation.
Ask her to take a poly on the issue of OM name. Her response will tell you what you need to know.

fareast posted 7/14/2020 20:17 PM

Take care of yourself. Give yourself a break. Focus on finding employment. Do something you enjoy. You have to be emotionally exhausted. You’ve got time. Good luck.

GoldenR posted 7/14/2020 20:36 PM

You got the thickest pair of rose-colored glasses on that anyone on SI has ever had.

- she won't give you his name. You know she knows it. YOU KNOW. Stop trying so hard to believe her.

- she wants out. She said as much.

She's remorseless. Whatever negative happens now in regards to R is 100% on you.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 8:36 PM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/14/2020 20:41 PM

As hard as it is, really, really, try to look at the situation outside of the past goodness of your relationship and see what stands before you.

I am. TBH, I'm becoming more numb about all of this. I feel like for the most part I've been a duck. Calm and smooth on the top of the water and paddling furiously under the water. Mostly. I know that at some point I'm going to have to deal with everything below the water, but for now I'm just trying my best to look at it like another work project.

When your heart fully catches up with your head, you will know.

It is catching up little by little.

Do you believe your wife when she says she doesn’t know his name and/or can’t contact him?

She could contact him, but I honestly would be worried that OMW would come after her. I actually pointed that out. That he used a burner phone and we can't find him but WW used her regular phone number and they could easily find us. I told her I was concerned about the boys and our safety of us personally and our property. She said I don't think he would ever do anything like that. Said you don't know this fucking guy. She said, "Yeah I just don't think he's that kind of person" I said what the fuck do you know about him you've told me nothing! you barely talked to the guy- all you did was fuck him. He's a kind of guy that's perfectly okay to ruin two marriages just to get some pussy. I did also talk to her about how he's not a good person - "if you think of what he did and how he went after you and how you're probably not the only one - he's not a good person" and she got kind of sad looking and said "yeah I guess he's not", real quietly while looking down.

AND I THINK I DO BELIEVE that she does not know his last name.

learning who OM becomes even more important IMHO if there is to be reconciliation.

Yes that's true, but regardless, I need to know who he is even if it's D.

[This message edited by BSHusbandWI at 8:43 PM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/14/2020 20:47 PM

And GoldenR:

You got the thickest pair of rose-colored glasses on that anyone on SI has ever had.

I don't know you and you don't know me.

But if you think that I have posted everything that's going through my mind and all the facts of everything that is going on, then you're the one with the rose-colored glasses.

It's perfectly okay by me if you refrain from posting in the thread about MY life. Of course, you can continue to post. Any additional posts by you will simply be ignored.

Take care of yourself.

RocketRaccoon posted 7/14/2020 21:08 PM

BSH,

I guess you could start looking for clues here...

What I got out of that was that her new (single, sub 30 years old) girlfriend from work that she was spending so much time with and late into the night often, was on Tinder for some time. My wife's girlfriend posted a pic on Instagram of them "cheers-ing" a drink. The story goes that some dude that the girlfriend matched with saw the pic and showed up to say hi.

And am not too sure if I missed, it, but is your WWs enabling friend still around? She could be another source of info....

ChamomileTea posted 7/14/2020 21:31 PM

What went through my mind was... it is possible her friend or WW came up with this scheme... To have me not worry about everything by using an app or burner number to text her something. Have her delete it so that then she can say it was from the wife and that I wouldn't worry anymore. And maybe not even need his name anymore because now it's really done. That shows you first of all how fucking paranoid and messed up I am. If this ruse were true it's some pretty crazy next level espionage so to speak. So, I told her that I probably have more questions and I still need her help in finding this guy's name. She showed what looks like genuine concern that we'd be fucking in their lives if I reached out to him and it could end up problematic.

I don't know that your supposition is all that terribly farfetched. Did you compare the timestamps of the texts to ones from any friend or family member who could have helped her set that up? If she gave you the "deer in the headlights" when you still wanted to find him, that could be a possible indicator that something's amiss. All that said, it could be that the OBS has indeed found something and either isn't brave enough to contact you or doesn't know how. Try leaving one of your social media platforms open. Maybe she'll reach out to you.

This is going to sound ludicrous, but we've been together over 22 years - almost half my life!!!!! And despite how shitty this is and how shitty she is and how her shitty choices have impacted me and the boys, at this moment right now i'm really not sure what to do.

You don't have to make a decision right now. I think it's perfectly okay to work both plans, R and D, while remaining noncommittal until you have your equilibrium again.

I don't have a great deal of hope for R in your case though, I'm sorry to say. Already, your WW is saying that she can't imagine a healing process that takes YEARS... but it does. In fact, it's two-five years in most cases. And like you, I'm beginning to think she simply doesn't know who the hell she slept with, and that's its own can of worms to deal with. She threw away everything for absolutely nothing; some adrenaline and thrills. Also, and this is just me being completely frank with you, I think asking for sexual details was a mistake. I get it, I really do. I spent months in a frenzied state, searching for every last detail I could get my hands on. I saw their messages, I saw videos of him fucking one of them, smiling at her, cuddling in bed together. I did learn to pass my questions through the lens of "Does knowing this answer help ME?" after that. I learned to curb morbid curiosity, because what did I really need to know.. that he fucked some people? Yeah. He fucked some people. But now, thanks to my earliest knee-jerk reaction, despite the therapy, the EMDR, the years which have passed since DDay, I will NEVER forgive him. We had a pretty good R going for awhile, but when he stopped working all that rage came back. There are REASONS why therapists admonish us to be careful what we ask. The answers aren't as important as the willingness to be honest.

Anyway, like I said, I think it's okay to work both plans until you know what you want. You're keeping your options open and that's getting a lot more done than some at your stage. As you work both sides, your fear of the unknown should alleviate as you imagine an alternative to your current lifestyle; gathering information, putting together resources. And on the other side of the coin, your WW may (or may not) start showing more remorse and possibly a work ethic. TIME tells all tales. Do try not to get pigeonholed too early though.


ETA: In terms of your healing, try looking up information on Mindfulness and Four-Square Breathing this week. Maybe like a little healing goal, since you're not in IC currently. Four-Square Breathing is a technique emergency responders and military personnel are taught in order to restore calm and lower blood pressure. Learning it can serve as a precursor to Meditation, but for right now, look at Mindfulness. It's helpful to pull your brain into the present, so you can hopefully prevent a habit of rumination from forming. Bear in mind that I'm not a therapist, but these techniques have helped me to alleviate trauma symptoms. You'll find loads of information online. As you progress, you can even find apps which will help you learn more Meditation techniques. There's something very appealing about the Buddhist approach to trauma, very comforting.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 10:03 PM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

EllieKMAS posted 7/14/2020 21:41 PM

BSH it took me time to get fully to this thought but the bottom line is: You DO owe yourself. You owe yourself peace, no matter which path it takes to get you there. You owe your boys a healthy happy dad. Her? You owe her nothing at this point.

CT is right, you don't have to make a decision right this second. But I will challenge you to really stop and think about what YOU want and need going forward. And to get real in yourself whether she adds to those or not. Only you can say with any certainty. But don't let 22 years (by your own words the last 4-5 of which haven't been particularly good) keep you in a situation giving up more precious time trying to regain something that's gone. I'll echo other prayers that false R is its own kind of hell that I would not wish on anyone.

TheGuy123 posted 7/14/2020 21:46 PM

Speaking of being ignored.... I know I suck but I just wanted to let you know you are not alone man.

Been there done that and I know for a fact you will get through this shyt sandwich! Make a plan and work your plan.

It looks phucked up now, but it does get better.....you will find your way! Just make a plan!

It's not what knocks us down that counts....it's how we get back up that counts!

So get up, dust your ass off and get to it!


TheGuy123 posted 7/14/2020 21:54 PM

I think you are at point were it is time to drop a few hundred bucks on a polygraph.

#1 question...do you not know the OM's name?
#2 question... do I know the phucker?

And if you want to really mess with you old ladies head....the #3 question.... are the kids mine? Throw this one in just to send the point home that she screwed up 20yrs! God only knows if you get the head down silent WW or the pissed off/defensive WW.

Seriously...your old lady could get phucked up by some chick and she still protects the OM's ID...WTF!
I think it's a bullshyt or she would bring you in to this mess if it was real?
I think she is phucking with you or this would scare the shyt out of her and get you involved.

Or

The OM's old lady whacks your chick and you get pinched for it?

How serious does it have to get before your old lady brings you into the know?
At the end of the day... your WW story about contact from OM's old lady does not help at all.

[This message edited by TheGuy123 at 10:13 PM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

HellFire posted 7/14/2020 22:04 PM

Hmmm. Two numbers that texted her phone, six hours apart,both with the same area code as yours. And both are already disconnected.

Ya know. There are all kinds of spoofing websites online. You visit their website..they ask what number you want them to call,or text,and what number You Want displayed on the caller ID. You can provide them with a partial number (like the area code), and they will provide the rest. They will ask what you want the spoof text to say. If you want them to call, they will ask if you want it to be silent when answered, or if you want them to say something. They even ask if you want them to speak with a female, or male voice. Oh, and guarantee if you,or anyone, tries to call the number back,after they have spoofed the call,or text, the number will no longer be in service.

So,yes. She could have gone online, told them whatever, and tested if it worked, then had them text her later. She could even tell them what time to send the text.

Just FYI.

Never underestimate a woman trying to cover her ass, and protect her boyfriend.

Stevesn posted 7/14/2020 22:32 PM

BSH

I understand what you are doing and can support it as long as you are being truthful with yourself. Your wife is still a long long way from remorseful. She’s still playing games even if she’s giving you some details.

As I said in my last post, I still don’t understand what’s in it for her. It seems like she hasn’t enjoyed life with you for years. You said it in your very first post.

our sex life has been non existent for a long time (years). Quite a long time ago, she essentially turned into a prude and that any sexual comment or advance was met with disdain and disgust.

Why does she want to stick around if she hasn’t been happy in the relationship for a long time. You can’t tell me she all of a sudden has seen the light. If she has, she’s still trying to be the one “on top”. If she’s feeling regret it’s to me because of the position she’s in right now, not in any way because of the empathy she feels for what she has done to you.

So if for the reasons you describe you are gonna hang out and see what happens for a while and try and get more info, fine. As long as you don’t start falling for what she is dishing out right now. We can tell when a WS finally “gets it”. Even when they do, reconciliation is a long shot.

When she starts taking the lead on rebuilding, in a purely selfless way, you’ll know. I’m not sure if you’ll ever see that, probably not, but if it somehow does happen, you’ll know, we’ll know.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:01 AM, July 15th (Wednesday)]

KingofNothing posted 7/15/2020 00:12 AM

AND I THINK I DO BELIEVE that she does not know his last name.

Okay, how did they meet? She knows that much. Was it online, via Tinder or something like it? Or was he a friend of a friend? Or was he in a bar and picked her up?

I'm asking because I'm going through scenarios where you meet someone and don't tell them your name.

Interesting thought.. if he met her in public, he went there with a burner phone ready, because I presume he gave her his number that night.

Also interesting-- his wife had access to his burner phone to text threats with, or was that a different number? Yet, both of them are now disconnected? One of them, I presume, being her (the OM's wife's) everyday cellphone number. Sounds awfully convenient. Perhaps the wife never saw anything and never suspected anything, and this was the OM sending her bogus texts to exit the affair without a trace. If all of this makes sense, of course.

Has she identified every repeat phone call in the cell phone records? I get it, one was a burner, but were ALL of them burners?

Did they use protection, btw? She probably mentioned that.

So... she never saw where HE lived.. but apparently knows where YOU live? Or could, possibly. The Hotels are really a dead end? He never used a credit card even one time.

She has to have a moment of clarity at some point and realize.. "A guy who puts that much thought and effort into not getting caught obviously runs the risk of getting caught constantly" ergo, she isn't his only side piece. Did she think they had a future?

I'm sorry if I'm asking dumb questions, when these threads get past ten pages, I forget things.

Buffer posted 7/15/2020 02:42 AM

Brother, you are doing the best you can.
One day at a time
Buffer

masti posted 7/15/2020 02:48 AM

BSHusband it is possible that he did not give her his name and even if he did it was possibly fake. I think the guy is a total player, probably wealthy and your WW is not his only rodeo. She has to do the entire STD tests for being so idiotic. This is his modus operandi, befriending wayward wives and doing them till it’s time to move on or they start getting attached. That text was his way of cutting ur wife off. Whether she learns anything is upto her. You probably need to out her to family now.

Bigger posted 7/15/2020 04:02 AM

Friend

When posters comes along and posts comments like this being the toughest situation ever witnessed here on SI, you have no vision or are totally blind to what’s happening, you are weak and so on it’s sometimes beneficial to look up their older posts on other threads. You often see a pattern of the same this-is-the-worst-case-ever-seen, you-are-weak, kick-her-to-the-curb advice offered as a cure-all to all situations.

Fareast and Buffer have both given the excellent advice that you can pace yourself and that you need to focus on the main character in this drama: Yourself. There are few things that hold completely true in marital problems but this one is: If you take time away from your problems they will still be there when you get back. If you use the time away wisely YOU are in better shape to deal with the problems.

I don’t know if this situation is recoverable or not. Frankly I’m not too hopeful it can be done CORRECTLY. I put great value in marriage, I think it’s the most important relationship we enter purely of free choice and stay of free choice in our lives. To me as I see it a marriage needs to be built on truth and trust. IF she’s holding back on OM name – IF – then it shows she doesn’t trust you and there is no truth. IF you don’t believe she knows OM name then that too shows you don’t trust her and there is no truth.
Reconciliation is tough. Going at it with THAT albatross around your neck is like setting off on a cross-country road-trip with a bad car-battery and leaky tires.

The KEY ISSUES right now to me is this:
Is she telling the truth about OM name?
Do you believe her that she doesn’t know OM name?
Is she willing to share all info that might give you OM name? Not just allow you to search her info, but actively contribute to the search.

We have offered some suggestions on how you could establish if WW knows his name or not. I’m sticking to the poly suggestion.
Present this as her tool to help YOU move on from her not knowing the name.
If she refuses then suggest hypnosis and/or ask her for suggestions on how she can help you move on from this issue.

Her reaction will tell you a lot. A lot. In fact, if she right away offers to take the poly then to me that would be enough.

The issues in her story that make me take a step back and think?
Well… I can understand getting a burner phone once an affair has started, but are we to believe the OM already had a burner when he met WW? That his wife then got a burner to send WW a message? What level of experience does he have to a) already have a burner dedicated to this affair b) keep his name hidden all the time? If he’s a played does he have one phone per affair partner? Does the man walk around with 4 phones in his pants marked Wife, Jane, Cindy and Sue? It’s too CSI, too clean and sanitized for me. Too convenient. Too unbelievable.

The fear of OMW reaching out to your wife? That is classic, happens-all-the-time fear here on SI. In my many years I have heard that fear mentioned several times each month. I recall less than 100 instances where the other spouse has harassed the AP and then usually with a call or text or two. There are maybe 2-3 over the last 10 years where it’s gotten any further than that. It’s an empty threat, especially considering the benefits of knowing OM name and ensuring his wife knows (and the “message” from OMW being a lie).


Finally. What I fear the most for you is this:
We had a poster here some years ago. He still posts occasionally. His wife insisted she “only” had an EA. Yet he had posts describing their sex, OM and WW having spent nights together in a hotel room and so on and so on. This poster wanted to reconcile, and his wife wanted to stay married. Eventually she agreed to a poly and if I remember correctly completely failed twice. Not just failed but more like broke the needle failed. Yet she insisted it was only an EA. They are still together as husband and wife, but IMHO his posts reflect a growing despair. To me it’s not the actual events that took place in an affair that will kill his marriage, but rather the lack of knowing. This is what I fear for you.

Freeme posted 7/15/2020 07:39 AM

What if you refused to slow down/stop the divorce process until you got the guys name. Give her two choices 1. Pay for a poly (to build trust) and then help you get the guys name. 2. Help you get the guys name now.

Everyone may advise you to run but it's because we've gone through similar and didn't run. You need to find your own way.

I do find it odd that the OBS texted your WW ad she deleted all evidence of the message. That both OM and OBS have burner phones? If she really wanted to convence you that it was over between her and OM. If she wanted you to see that OBS knew, if she wanted to gain your trust back....

If she is telling the truth about OBS texting I'm guessing the message said more than your WW wanted you to see.

My guess is that OM got a second burner phone to contact your WW so they could get their stories straight.

Has WW given you access to the phone records? It would be interesting to see if both burner phone numbers are listed on her account. Has she given you complete access to her phone?

It also bothers me that she feels like you should have to give her access to her phone... YOU didn't cheat. Whatever.

What bothers me the most is that she doesn't seem to be all into fixing the marriage.

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