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Hostile

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ChamomileTea posted 7/9/2020 18:14 PM

I agree with Bigger, btw. I think you should go. That said, as soon as she refuses to give up the last name, I'd look her in the eye and tell her to call him right there on the spot and ask. When she refuses and tries to fob you off, it's "let me know when you're serious", and out the door.

That... and file. Because damn. It just shouldn't be THIS hard to get one honest answer.

20yrsagoBS posted 7/9/2020 19:43 PM

You know, ne of US could contact the POS's spouse for you.

Once you get his name.

I know several of us would do that for you.


You're a great Dad. Don't sell yourself short. You're also teaching your son's not to stifle their emotions. That's a great thing

Buster123 posted 7/9/2020 19:53 PM

I think you're still dancing too much around this issue, this is no time for "negotiations" it makes you look weak and lowers your status. You need to DEMAND answers.

Tell her she's got 30 seconds to give you his name and commit to NC FOREVER with OM or you're filing for D the next day, and that's it, if she refuses, follow through and file, no more negotiations, D takes a long time and can be stopped if she comes around, or NOT ! by that time you may not even want her back.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/9/2020 20:07 PM

You know, ne of US could contact the POS's spouse for you.
Once you get his name.

I know several of us would do that for you.

I'm not sure what that would do. (I kinda already tried that, but without his name)

Stinger posted 7/9/2020 20:19 PM

Trying to force someone to love and respect you will not work. She does not love or respect you.

Bigger posted 7/10/2020 07:58 AM

Having slept on this issue I have some issues.
Simply due to the fact you are talking to WW and MC indicates to me that if you had the option you would want to reconcile. This post is totally based on that stance, but with the realistic premises that R requires the truth.

OK – best case scenario the affair is over. Let’s just for a moment use typical WW/AP reaction to evaluate what their last couple of conversations were like. Based on her reluctance to name him and sex in hotels and cars I’m assuming he’s married (he could also be from out-of-town, but the secrecy makes me lean towards married).

The rule-of-thumb is that when a WW tells her OM that the husband knows the OM tries to cut off contact. It’s usually done with some “we need to take time off” speech rather than a “goodbye, I will never contact you again”. The OM might have no intention of contacting your wife again, but he still gives her a gentle break-up and/or leaves a slight opening.

Your wife is also probably thinking that it’s best to let things cool off and maybe it’s over. But she probably also thinks that sometime in the future she can meet OM and they can decide to focus on their marriages “despite what we had”. Sort of end this like a Hollywood movie.

What experience also tells us is that with time there is the real and serious risk of a relapse. Your WW might be trying to reconcile but still has some opening to OM. In some ways it’s comparable to the recovering alcoholic who removed all booze from his home, but still keeps that special $$$ cognac that he has no intention of drinking but cant get himself to flush down the drain. Maybe even opens the bottle every now and then to sniff (looks up OM FB page) but has no intention of drinking. Well… maybe dip the tongue in it (hi – how are you text)… The simple fact the bottle is there shows the commitment, and the chances of a relapse multiply with it in the house. While there is ANY contact or ANY time-limit on NC and no way for you to monitor contact… there is no sobriety. There is ongoing infidelity, albeit maybe inactive infidelity.

There could be an innocent “how are you doing” from OM. Or they talk at the end of the meeting at work when everyone else has left. Or she goes to his store that you both frequent. Or the next time she goes for an oil-change and meets him again. Or at the corner of your street when he’s mowing the lawn. Or he talks to her in the kitchen when you two as a couple are having dinner with him and his wife. Or he meets her by the Alpine machine at the gym… WHILE YOU DON’T KNOW WHO HE IS YOU CANT MONITOR THIS!

What I think is the best approach is for the OMW to know about the affair so the OM has to decide if he wants his marriage or he wants your wife. Experience tells us that in the vast majority of cases the OM dumps his OW. A clear: GET OUT OF MY LIFE. I was only using you for the sex! Is something that tends to clear away the White Knight, eternal love riding into the sunset fantasy.
If your WW tells her OM that she had decided to divorce you and now they can go ride unicorns into the sunset and if his wife knows of the affair… the odds are 19/20 that he will be sending her a get out of my life message.

I also think a clear: I’m OK with divorce if you cant meet my requirements is also something that tends to wake a WS to reality fast. If you remove all her objections to why D isn’t a good idea: The boys? They are old enough so we can talk about this with them. The finances? We can afford to divorce, yes it’s a change in lifestyle but we can deal with it. The social stigma? Not an issue, people will talk for a couple of months and then it’s fine. People divorce all the time. The house? We will solve that issue in the process. It’s like an onion where you remove each layer until there is only ONE reason left to be married: She wants you as her husband.


What if OM really does leave his wife or isn’t married? Well… IMHO it’s better for you right now that your WW and OM commit to each other rather than having an ongoing affair.
But the odds of that are extremely low.

I think that once your WW is standing there emotionally naked with NO EXCUSE to not go to OM or to leave this marriage is the moment true reconciliation has a chance. When she cant hide behind what could have been or in another life they would be eternally happy or some other fantasy. Plain, hard simple: I can live without you from you and I don’t want you from OM.

The contract is to establish a protocol for behavior while you two decide what to do. Basically it’s a non-commitment agreement that is relatively looped to her advantage. It says that for the next three months you will decide on if you want to separate, divorce or reconcile. It basically is deciding a PATH rather than a DESTINATION. For the next three months you two are going to be pacing back-and-forth along two realistic paths and one I don’t personally understand (separate). The destination is out of infidelity and YOU already have a good route-plan on how to get there. You don’t need the three months of limbo.

There are some niceties in there to sweeten it:
Talking to the boys together… Even if they didn’t know what was going on then that doesn’t take three months… But the fact is they know what’s going on. They are old enough to handle divorce and you two are mature enough to tell them jointly or together of your decision. You could do that tomorrow.
Being civil. OK – I get it that being called a whore isn’t constructive, but I am hoping that once you get your focus you will keep this civil. It’s to everyone’s advantage to be civil. Being called an asshole doesn’t help either…

But everything else is non-enforceable for the simple reason you can’t verify anything. She can verify if you contact OM, but you can’t verify if she contacts OM. She can tell you they met 6 times and only had sex twice and it was bad. You can’t verify without having access to her e-mails, texts and so on. That in turn gives you OM, something she refuses. Ergo: can’t verify.
Since you already know your destination then I don’t see any real advantage in a three month period to decide the path there.

Look – In some ways I’m OK with the no contact with OM clause because even if you know his name I would be suggesting you ignore him. We can assume he knows you know. In fact if he doesn’t I would suggest the MC sends him an e-mail or text informing him that you know and that he shouldn’t be in any contact. But he knows…
What the contract doesn’t exclude is that you contact his wife and/or his job if this is business related. THAT is what I would be telling you to do.

I keep going back to my post on page 2 on this thread. I would initiate the meeting with MC and WW with the following:

“Wife. I envisioned us being married forever. This affair was an immense shock, but I think our past deserves that we try to reconcile. However, I have made an immense, liberating realization: As much as I fear losing this marriage then I fear even more SHARING you.
I don’t share my wife, nor do I intend to. I don’t intent to keep you in this marriage against your will. If you don’t think a monogamous marriage built on honesty and mutual respect is attainable for us or if you think our marriage demands too much sacrifice, then that’s OK.
You are totally free to spend time with OM, meet OM, go to his seedy hotel-room, talk about him with your friends… whatever… BUT NOT AS MY WIFE.
Until and unless you tell me in a very clear and unequivocal way that you want me as your husband I’m simply assuming you have still chosen your affair over our marriage. I release you from your obligations and expectations as my wife, just like I resign my role as your husband.
That’s OK. I’m fine with that. It’s not what I want, but definitely better than remaining in infidelity.”

And then add that the contract is useless as it is. If she meets your reasonable demands about transparency and commitment then you would be willing to agree to some concessions:
Being civil, trying to find a productive way to settle your issues (MC) and maybe even committing to reconciliation for 90 days before evaluating if it’s worth carrying on. But that’s it. She doesn’t need 3 months to decide if you will do or if she still pines for OM.

IMHO she already has done that and the fact she’s at that MC meeting at all tells me a lot. She’s trying to find a way back into the security of the marriage without having to admit she was wrong. Do not step down from your demands. They are the requirements that are best for both your marriage IF this gets to R and more importantly for YOU.

Westway posted 7/10/2020 08:57 AM

I think your WW is playing you. This MC stuff is all smokescreen so that she can tell everyone "I did everything I could to save the marriage and he still divorced me! Boo hoo! Sob sob." The very fact she refuses to give up his name tells you all you need to know about her intentions. It's all about her controlling the narrative and protecting her ass.

beenthereinco posted 7/10/2020 09:20 AM

If she stays with the "I only know his first name" story I would say "Fine, just give me his phone number and I'll find his name. Show it to me right now on your phone." Do this in front of the MC if you are going to go. Expose there that she really doesn't want to tell you and she knows who he is. Of course she knows who he is. You do know of course that whatever first name she gives you is not going to be true and since she is saying you cannot contact him and not really giving you any transparency you have no way to know. This whole thing stinks for you.

shareonhearts posted 7/10/2020 09:31 AM

Hostile
I agree with Westway. She is protecting the OM over your marriage even after all of this and biding her time. She has no remorse except for the fact that she got caught. I too believe you may know her affair partner. I wish you the best in your decisions going forward...

KingofNothing posted 7/10/2020 13:17 PM

BSH: She's stalling for some reason. You know this. She doesn't want to give up the name because there's something in the works that benefits her that she's stalling this procedure to wait on.. is he leaving his wife? Maybe? You don't know of course.. Anyway anyone protecting the lover over the hubby in this way is doing something akin to the old tried and true "Gee, I don't KNOW what I want.. give me some time to process this" tactic. That's almost always a stall while the cheater waits for an advantage that he/she thinks is forthcoming.

Don't fall for this. Go to the session, confront her. I think the bit about asking for his number is solid gold. She can't NOT do that without having her duplicity be laid bare in front of the MC at that moment.

Decimated posted 7/10/2020 13:39 PM

Buster123 posted 7/9/2020 19:53 PM

I think you're still dancing too much around this issue, this is no time for "negotiations" it makes you look weak and lowers your status. You need to DEMAND answers.

Tell her she's got 30 seconds to give you his name and commit to NC FOREVER with OM or you're filing for D the next day, and that's it, if she refuses, follow through and file, no more negotiations, D takes a long time and can be stopped if she comes around, or NOT ! by that time you may not even want her back.

These are the only words you should be speaking to her right now!

nekonamida posted 7/10/2020 14:11 PM

BSH, I actually think you're doing right by yourself by playing nice for MC in order to get the info you need to move on. I don't see this as a black and white situation where you have to either do everything to get the truth and keep the door open for R or give up on getting the truth and go for D. I can see why you need to know who OM is even if you're going to file the second you have his name. Because otherwise, you will be left wondering if you're passing by him at any given time and don't know it. I can see why that would be bad for your mental health even if you have no real desire to R with your WW.

I believe posters are jumping on you about this because we see it all the time that a BS who has a WS still actively in the A, still lying to them, and no where near R material back peddles on D at the last second when their WS gives them crumbs. What happens next is a long, painful power struggle for months where the BS spends all this time and energy trying to force their WS into R and it's sad because they end up D anyways. WSes who have to be poked, prodded, and dragged kicking and screaming into R unsurprisingly don't make great candidates for R. I think posters are worried that you're using the need for OM's name as a smoke screen to hide the hopium you're smoking. I don't get that impression though because you've successfully taken many steps with the help of your lawyer to get to the point where all you need is to drop the final word and file. That's farther along than the BSes who fell into this trap. It's clear to me that you're ready to get out of infidelity after this disclosure session unless your WW becomes a completely different person worthy of R. So stand strong, hold your ground, and proceed with D even if all you do get is the first name. This is her one and only chance.

ShutterHappy posted 7/10/2020 14:58 PM

She is protecting the OM over your marriage

Exactly. She protects him because she cares for him. You don’t need a WW that’s in love with another man.

Let us know when she throws the OM under the bus.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 2:59 PM, July 10th (Friday)]

MickeyBill2016 posted 7/10/2020 16:36 PM

Even if her affair is over or on hold I think the main reason he won't tell is because he is a mutual friend of the family a neighbor or like Bigger says maybe the dentist.
It is evil for her to keep this info from BSH, but if he knows who, there is 1000% chance of divorce. And she knows it.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/10/2020 16:40 PM

BSH, I actually think you're doing right by yourself by playing nice for MC in order to get the info you need to move on.

If nothing else, I am my own man. I read every post. Consider what it says and even the reasons behind why they are saying what they are saying.

nekonamida, I think you are the first person to put into words how I feel:

Because otherwise, you will be left wondering if you're passing by him at any given time and don't know it. I can see why that would be bad for your mental health even if you have no real desire to R with your WW.

And for the record, I'm not sure what I want right now in terms of R or D. I'm too fucked up at the moment and don't think I should be necessarily deciding that right now.

[This message edited by BSHusbandWI at 4:42 PM, July 10th (Friday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/10/2020 16:43 PM

The meeting is done.

I can't talk about it now...

Maybe later tonight.

Thumos posted 7/10/2020 16:57 PM

It’s been a long time since I commented on one of these threads. I used to give thoughtful long plan for people to carry out, but nothing really came out of that most of the time because few people are clear-headed enough to take action on good advice

So I’ll just say this: You’ve got an remorseless woman playing games with your head who lacks transparency and has been hostile you about her willful sin that cuckolds you.

This is a shitshow and you need to be done with it. Nothing to salvage here. Stop playing her games and stop dancing to her tune. Walk away.

Do you really want to spend the rest of your life saddled with such a dysfunctional entitled person? I don’t think you do. Stop falling prey to the sunk costs fallacy.

This is who she is. Faithlessness is as natural to her as eating.

Proverbs 30:20 - "This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth and says, 'I've done nothing wrong.'“

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:01 PM, July 10th (Friday)]

The1stWife posted 7/10/2020 17:47 PM

Hope you are ok.

We are all supporting you — reach out if you need your SI group

ChamomileTea posted 7/10/2020 18:24 PM

It sounds like the meeting was pretty difficult. Just remember that whatever is happening, you WILL be okay. Feelings, no matter how difficult, are temporary. Pain is finite. All of us here have been victimized by betrayal... AND WE'RE STILL STANDING. You will too.

Strength to you.

Newlifeisgreat posted 7/10/2020 19:23 PM

Take time to process the meeting.

Relax

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