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EllieKMAS posted 7/7/2020 17:48 PM

Hey BSH. Just a food for thought. But what your therapist said to you is exactly why MC isn't ideal at this stage. MC's job is to work on the M. Buuuutttt... If she is unwilling to give you any transparency at the mo, then really there isn't much M there to work on. You can't be expected to deal with working on the M when you still have no real idea what ww has even done to screw it up yet!

If I went to my dr and said "I think I have cancer so let's get me started on chemo. Scans? Tests? Nah, don't need em." That's nuts, right? Cus that is what MC with no transparency is. Also just my experience was awful. My MC (who didn't have experience or training in infidelity/trauma) actually told me (in front of my cheater) that the only way to move forward was for me to "put it in the past and not being it up" oh, and my favorite, that I "needed to really dig in and explore my issues that would make my husband seek someone outside the marriage". Yeah. 5 weeks from dday that was the MCs 'advice'.

Until ww gets real and you know and can verify she is NC, then imho talking about the relationship is a big fat Nope. Also, I wouldn't recommend contacting posom either, but you do not have to promise to ba good boy and let him have a pass. At the very least you can (and should) contact the douche's wife if there is one.

And last? I would also suggest adding to your must have list that ww cut ties with her 'friend' that has encouraged all this.

fareast posted 7/7/2020 17:48 PM

I think what you told the 16 year old about why you did not make her lunch was just fine. No need to expound further. Just IMO.

ChamomileTea posted 7/7/2020 18:06 PM

I think you're going a great job with your boys. Honestly. You've got a great line of communications open with them.

While I think the BEST course of action is not to engage, I wonder at the merit of possibly calling her on her bullshit when she drags the children into her drama?? On the one hand, you can't go wrong with grey rock. On the other, if she's dragging you in anyway, the response should be to the point and shaming. Something like, "If you're having a hard time leaving the boys out of your drama, maybe you should consider moving out. You already know that I am NOT going to continue in the role of Husband to a wife who continues choosing dishonesty over honesty. This is not news to you, nor is it stimulus for daily drama. YOU made this choice, you fired me from my job as Husband, and if you can't live with it, maybe you should leave." Then, disengage and walk away.

Take it with a big 'ol grain of salt, BSH, because any engagement invites more. But damned if it's not hard seeing your kids put in the middle without responding.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 6:10 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/7/2020 18:32 PM

the only way to move forward was for me to "put it in the past and not being it up" oh, and my favorite, that I "needed to really dig in and explore my issues that would make my husband seek someone outside the marriage".

Ellie, did you tell that fuckface "therapist", to eat your ass??!?! Jesus! (sorry for those that are religious) That is fucking CRAZY!!!

Above all, one thing I have done is gotten it straight in my mind that MC is to see if we can begin a dialog. And that alone is fine. I'm even prepared to talk a bit about the relationship to be brought into the light a bit. BUT, YES... deal with adultery first to consider R, not the other way around! and Ellie, LOVE your cancer analogy. PERFECT! I am putting that one in my pocket for the first 3-way session if it happens (did I just say 3-way?... I'm sure slutty WW would be fine with that)

I'm in sales, and it's kinda like working a deal... First you do some initial research to see if it's worth pursuing. When you say yes, then it's discovery with the prospect to see if we have a reason to continue discussions (what problem do you have and might we be able to help you with it), then into more details. At the end we come up with the solution and how it helps you achieve your goals. We don't jump to our product and say look at this... We seek to understand first.

ChamomileTea:

I think you're going a great job with your boys. Honestly. You've got a great line of communications open with them.

Thank you. Above me, it's my single largest concern. I've read quite a few stories how these situations have colored kids views for their future relationships and fucked everything up. I hope I'm evening the scales for them and their future relationships. Whatever happens to me, happens, but them... It brings me to tears thinking that they would choose poorly based on these experiences and end up in my circumstances. I look at my relationship with my dad and I'm sure I've upgraded to Dad 2.0 for my boys. My only hope is that they can do the same not only in the dad category, but also in the partner category.

and ChamomileTea it is some food for thought. what you outline is something that I would say to her individually and not in front of the boys for sure. I'll ponder about that.

And Thank you fareast, I'm trying to be purposeful and thoughtful when it comes to them inside the scope of dealing with WW.

My overriding thoughts are to be factual, honest about my feelings and be a good role model to the boys. I hope I'm doing that and can continue to do that.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/7/2020 18:34 PM

Oh, Ellie:

And last? I would also suggest adding to your must have list that ww cut ties with her 'friend' that has encouraged all this.

Yes, but that doesn't matter if we're not R. There's NO WAY that will happen if she's not truly R material...

So, it's for another day, if at all. Right now, I'm quite sure that's as much as a no starter for her as a nameless OM is for me.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/7/2020 18:44 PM

On a total side note or T/J...

How do you all do it? I am in the process of reading through Wallops journey (only page 12 of 50.. FUKKING 50 PAGES!!) and so much of this is so depressing. So many humans are SOOOO FUCKED UP!! How do you keep coming back here to read and post? It's incredibly depressing.

I dunno maybe it's the human condition, but Holy FUCK! What is wrong with people!?!?! On BOTH SIDES.. Those that trust to a point only to be fucked in the ass with no lube to the point that you need to stuff a few rolls of toilet paper in there just to stop the bleeding, to those mother fuckers that selfishly do what they do and then seemingly enjoy watching the aftermath of the intrusion, just watching it bleed all over and they're on to the next victim?? Honestly, I'm disappointed in humanity in general.

PS... don't let this distract from giving your opinions on my recent updates that I desperately want to hear and consider.

EllieKMAS posted 7/7/2020 18:54 PM

I kinda go through SI phases. Sometimes it is a bit too bleak. But I keep coming back for two reasons. 1. Sooooo many people on here helped me on my journey. Hugs, understanding, 2x4s, the whole shebang. If I can pay that forward and help others on their path, I will. And the second reason. It is depressing sometimes. But then there are such incredible stories of people thriving after infidelity. THAT part gives me hope for my own future.

My mom is a recovering alcoholic amd is very active in AA. They say in there that they go to "share their experience, strength, and hope". I like to think of my SI time like that.

redwing6 posted 7/7/2020 18:58 PM

As far as D, I spoke with lawyer, have a path forward for next Monday. We will either have a mediation session on the books by Tuesday morning or her firm will become my lawyer and I will file.

You need to state this firmly to your WW. THEN FOLLOW THROUGH!!!! No more waffling, because that is showing weakness. Your WW doesn't think you have the back bone to do it.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/7/2020 19:01 PM

"share their experience, strength, and hope". I like to think of my SI time like that.

That's inspiring, Ellie

redwing6 posted 7/7/2020 19:01 PM

How do you keep coming back here to read and post?

Because each of us, who have been through what you're going through, hope to be some small part of the collective wisdom here. We, collectively, hope that we can help others avoid the stupid fuck ups that we did while we were stumbling through our bouts with unfaithful spouses.

ChamomileTea posted 7/7/2020 19:02 PM

I think maybe that in reading and posting to other people who aren't quite as far along in their journey, we're still understanding our own. I know that's true for me. I look at someone else's story, and as I consider it, I find bits which apply to my own. And because it's someone else's story and not your own, you're able to be more clinical about it. Your perspective is so different on the outside than on the inside when it's happening to you. But those lessons, the growth in your own logic, still apply to whatever has happened in your own life. SI reminds me to keep moving. It reminds me to have empathy. It reminds me to step back and change my perspective now and then. But mostly, it reminds me that just because we were victimized, doesn't mean we have to live our lives as victims. We're stronger than we know.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/7/2020 19:04 PM

redwing:

You need to state this firmly to your WW. THEN FOLLOW THROUGH!!!! No more waffling, because that is showing weakness. Your WW doesn't think you have the back bone to do it.

I don't think i need to say anything to WW. Just do what I've set my mind to.

I guess, I didn't clarify. If WW has reached out for mediation by Monday then great we'll proceed down that more financially acceptable route.

If not, the mediator (a woman - and I think she's a very good human as far as I can tell so far), is going to reach out to WW on Monday to inquire about mediation. If that 's a go then great if not, she's my lawyer and we file.

So, no need to tell WW. Just move forward.

MAN IS THAT FREEING!!!!

This0is0Fine posted 7/7/2020 19:07 PM

You only need one request to get what you need from you larger list of demands.

1) Complete transparency (the willingness to answer any question) and honesty.

You are asking for it piecemeal and it will never work.

Furthermore, my guess is that your WW will argue that every time you ask for a new piece of information that, "You just keep making new demands".

You can offer her the same in return. You can offer to ask one question each back and forth forever. She'll be out of questions after maybe five or six honest issues she had with you. After that you'll be asking her about whatever bullshit she did with him and she'll ask you why you forgot to take out the trash a few weeks ago.

That said, your list is still too small since it doesn't include NC with AP forever.

She can have a relationship with just you. If she can't accept that, it's time for a D. Then she can have a relationship with her AP and as many other men as she wants.

redwing6 posted 7/7/2020 19:08 PM

So, no need to tell WW. Just move forward.

Onward and upward then. I suspect that you'll feel the burden lighten a bit with each new day. Start a hard 180 from here on out. Be that Gray Rock! Only discuss children & finances. Good luck & G-d speed!

BSHusbandWI posted 7/7/2020 19:12 PM

This0is0Fine:

That said, your list is still too small since it doesn't include NC with AP forever.

This only matters if R is on the horizon. And it's not right now. And I agree about the piecemeal stuff. But those initial items i'm needing to know are killing me and I'll negotiate to get those.

After that, I agree... either you get a question and then I get a question... OR more likely, just shut down and say no more until you agree to complete honestly because that's what builds trust. AND... WHY WOULD WE HAVE A REALTIONSHIIP NOT BASED ON HONESTY???!?! ARE YOU BOTH OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MINDS?!?!!

Based on recent conversations and actions, that's not going to happen.

RocketRaccoon posted 7/7/2020 21:48 PM

BSH,

MAN IS THAT FREEING!!!!

It is the feeling of having control of your life back again.

Yes, you are under no obligation to tell your WW what you are up to, and no need for any information on her A if you are heading towards D.

On the off chance that your WW has a light-bulb moment, is to get your list, and add the items that other posters have suggested. Have this list ready regardless (I hate the word 'irregardless'), and if she suggests R, then straightaway, put that list in front of her, just say answer these now, or there is no way you would even consider R.

Do not let her have any time to 'think about it'. The answers start flowing immediately. If she hesitates, then you say 'Okay, have a nice life', and walk away. Don't even contemplate answering any questions she will throw at you.

The premise behind that is that you are giving your WW a choice. The choice is to follow you on your path to the rest of your life, or not. It should not be that hard if a person is truly committed.

Buster123 posted 7/7/2020 22:33 PM

I don't think i need to say anything to WW. Just

do what I've set my mind to.

I guess, I didn't clarify. If WW has reached out for mediation by Monday then great we'll proceed down that more financially acceptable route.

If not, the mediator (a woman - and I think she's a very good human as far as I can tell so far), is going to reach out to WW on Monday to inquire about mediation. If that 's a go then great if not, she's my lawyer and we file.

So, no need to tell WW. Just move forward.


I completely agree with this, no need to talk anymore as long as the situation remains the same, NEVER telegraph your moves, it's time to act and you're doing just that. If and that's a big IF something changes and she comes around sometime during the process and you can verify it, then and only then should you just CONSIDER delaying/stopping the D process, or NOT !!, cheaters are not owed a 2nd chance and by that time you may not want to R at all, but again that's a big IF and not something you should consider at this point.

ShutterHappy posted 7/8/2020 07:45 AM

BSHusbandWI,

I joined SI to tell others that, no matter how horrible infidelity is, after you take steps to get out of it, youíll be just fine.

You, BSHusbandWI, will be just fine.

A few months ago, after someone cut me off in traffic and my son was swearing profusely, I told him:

ďSon, in my experience, about 80% of people are generally nice. 10% are just assholes. 10% are so nice, you wonít be able to stand it. Donít let the 10% ass get to you.Ē

There are many teachable moments. Like I said before, infidelity can be a teachable moment for your children. If you donít want them to have too much of a negative opinion on relationship, then talk to them.

ďAny relationships have risk. Risk of not working, risk of infidelity. For infidelity, this is how one handles it: be calm, be firm, donít accept blame, and put your foot down on your requirements for R if thatís what you want. Always value yourself. Donít let one failed relationship taint your view of future relationship.Ē

I think if you have a discussion with your children, it will help alleviate your fear towards them.

Hang in there!

Bigger posted 7/8/2020 08:09 AM

The list of what you need to reconcile would probably cover 100 pages.
Reconciliation is a process and the participants change and develop over that process.
For example: the remorse she might feel now has little in common with the remorse she should be feeling 2 years into reconciliation, and even less than the remorse she might be feeling 20 years later.
There is no way that list can be ready or prepared or even known right now.

What you need to START the process of reconciliation is a lot simpler and I outlined it in my post on page 2 of this thread:

If you want this marriage and tell me so in a clear unequivocal manner, then there are some requirements I need. I need total commitment, accountability and transparency and I need the name of the OM. Without this then I know we canít reconcile and Iím OK with that. It beats sharing you.Ē

About the boys:
You need to be clear on your roles here as a father and as a husband.
I really like how you talked about the affair not being a mistake. That was excellent.

I think they are of an age where you can talk frankly with them about the expectations of a relationship but also about the importance of atonement and forgiveness. That they donít forget that they owe her a big debt for what she has done over the years as their mother. They donít have to condone her actions, but they should remember sheís their mom and show her the care and support she probably needs right now. You are fine with them doing so and do not want them to take sides. Although your decisions on the future will affect them, then the marriage is between you and their mom.

Be very careful how you talk about their mom. Remain respectful.

HouseOfPlane posted 7/8/2020 08:50 AM

I dunno maybe it's the human condition...Honestly, I'm disappointed in humanity in general.
You are only disappointed because your expectations were unrealistic.

That's a hard pill to swallow about humanity (which includes each of us), but if you really really go looking for the truth in things, boy, that's where the road leads. Obviously not everyone cheats in their marriage, but I don't think I've ever met a saint. Even Mother Theresa wrestled with faith. One of my favorite quotes...

"Out of the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing was ever made"
- Emmanuel Kant

And that's what it is, a life-long wrestling match with doing The Right Thing that everybody struggles with at least a little, and for most, I'd say, they struggle a lot.

If you recast your statement as "I was wrong about humanity in general" then you can use this shit sandwich as an entry point into actually seeing the truth behind people. Understanding that they have a whole huge complex mental world going on behind their facade, every bit as complex as yours, that in your WW's case you happened to get a glimpse of, and is now getting fully exposed. It's like she's from an alternate universe, isn't it? A whole different world? A look behind the curtain that you would otherwise never get.

The truth is the truth, no matter how unpleasant it is, and should always be valued when we can find it. You'll find an awful lot of it here in SI.

I think you're doing great. Full speed ahead!

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