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Hostile

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TheGuy123 posted 7/5/2020 16:20 PM

If anyone needs to be writing a letter explaining them selves is your old lady.

Sorry man she is just not that into you. JUST LET HER GO!!

COME ON... you shouldn't have to spell it out again.

You're chasing her man ...knock it off!

TheGuy123 posted 7/5/2020 16:23 PM

If you feel a real need to write something to your old lady then write this.

"WHO IS HE'

Write this a million times then you can send it to her.

[This message edited by TheGuy123 at 4:30 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/5/2020 16:51 PM

TheGuy123:

I'm wired different then most so lets just say I'm not the best example here

I'd have to say that I agree with you. And Respectfully, your last few posts suck.

toughtotrust posted 7/5/2020 18:26 PM

During all of these emotions and happenings, I've completed the initial D filing and 90% of the proposed parenting plan legal documents. I'm doing that even though I know that moves me away from getting the information I need, I'm doing it. Not easily, but doing it.


You are wrong about this. You are in a battle and your wife thinks you will eventually give in. Beginning the divorce, is the nuclear option. You will either get all the information you ask, or you never will.

Every letter weakens your position. Begin the divorce. You will get what you need, one way or the other. This is your only way to move forward, with or without your wife. Don't talk or mention that the divorce can be stopped if your wife gives you the info you want. If she wants to reconcile, she'll give you the info you need. if she doesn't, well then its better to not drag out this mess. Anything can be reversed, but you're sitting in limbo right now.

Good Luck!

EllieKMAS posted 7/5/2020 18:27 PM

Bsh, man I totally get wanting to know. Completely understandable. But bottom line is, you can't make her tell you and getting into the fruitless back and forth with her only ends up hurting you. I wish there was some magic combo of words you could say that would make her get it, but there isn't. It sucks big ol ass.

I was like you. I kept getting into those kinds of discussions and letting him say the stupidest shit and giving it thought. I wish I hadn't. If I had it to do over, I would have 180'd his ass hard. I think a lot of BS's don't appreciate the 180 until after the fact, which is why new folks get advised over and over to do it. It will give you some much needed mental and emotional space.

And you are so right. NONE of this is fair. It makes no sense how someone could cause this much hurt because of their own selfishness. But this has not one damn thing to do with you. This is her shit. It takes time to internalize that.

JS84 posted 7/5/2020 18:29 PM

I wouldn't give her the letter. I think you're doing great but it sounds like you're still engaging with her way too much. Write it out, burn it, or put it in a safe place where she won't find it. But don't give it to her.

Suppose she does tell you why she won't give you any information. Do you think her answer or that knowledge is going to satisfy you, give you some peace of mind, or make you feel any better about the situation??? It won't.

I have a bit of heartache on giving it to her because I sort of feel like I'm begging for information in a pretty passive way (being super nice and understanding and all).

And with her current mindset I promise you that's exactly how it's going to come off to her. As weakness.

If she was receptive to fixing things then I'd say give her the letter but as things stand with you I think that would be a mistake.

But also, she doesn't seem to respond too well to me being a grey rock.

You being a "grey rock" is not about her response, whether good or bad. It never was. That is to protect yourself, your mental health, and to keep you focused on doing what you need to do to get out of infidelity whether it's divorce or reconciliation. Whether she responds positively, negatively, or not at all should not factor into it.

Here's the last paragraph: "So, let me know if this makes any sense to you at all and if you’re willing to talk about the affair. If you are, I promise that I will work very hard and do my best to not be spiteful or lash out at you or figuratively dig and twist the knife in deeper as we discuss."

Ya I definitely would not send that letter to her. It basically does come off as begging. She cheats on you and you're offering to put in the work and make concessions for her while she's offered basically nothing. You won't be doing yourself any favors with that approach. But at the end of the day it's up to you.

[This message edited by JS84 at 6:33 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

Bigger posted 7/5/2020 18:43 PM

I think a couple can reconcile from (nearly) anything. I think that if your wife could give you what you need then you two have a chance to reconcile. I don’t see your wife as this great demonic Jezebel. She’s just one more wayward woman. Confused and trying to justify her actions and minimize her blame.
But it takes a miracle to reconcile from what you don’t know.

I guess some people might manage it, but I know I wouldn’t.

You don’t KNOW the OM. You don’t know if he’s her boss, a passing stranger from another city, Jeff the guy next door, Bobby your best friend, Jack the friendly guy who always is around you two at the annual company picknick…
You have no way to verify NC. You have no way to feel safe that he isn’t trying to contact her.
Even if she was 100% committed to the marriage you don’t have ways to establish and verify that.

I’m OK with you using a letter to get your message across. Just remember that you can’t make concessions on the key issues. Like the name of OM.

It does sound like she’s giving way. I can predict one condition she sets before possibly telling you who OM is. She will demand you don’t contact him. I’m telling you here and now that you are not bound by any promise you make or condition she sets.

Buffer posted 7/5/2020 18:46 PM

I do like the letter, but as she isn’t showing any empathy or remorse, she will most likely roll her eyes, say sorry you don’t need the requested information and to just move on. It will remind her that she isn’t a nice person.

Stay as strong as you can, one drink or two with dinner etc. Walking is good drinking mostly water and loads of it is great, eating healthy is full on.

STBX is not your friend, she isn’t the woman you married and never will be again. She isn’t a great or good mother. No great or good woman would do what she has done for the validation of her toxic friend to her family / children when married.

One day at a time.
Buffer

[This message edited by Buffer at 6:48 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

Stinger posted 7/5/2020 18:50 PM

Joseph's letter is a joke. You think any remorseless cheater gives a shit if you have all the pieces to the puzzle? She does not gh I've a shit about you. She has shown you this countless ways.

Sorry, not meaning to be a jerk, but you need to stop assigning your normal values and ability to analyze to a personality disordered woman. The sky in her world is not blue. She may also be dumb, which makes it even worse.

ChamomileTea posted 7/5/2020 18:52 PM

I don't think it takes a whole letter to say, "You are either going to adopt a policy of complete honesty or you are getting divorced." I mean, there's lots of variations on that theme of course, but it is what it is... an ultimatum, one that should NOT be apologized for. You can't reconcile with a dishonest person. It just won't work because Honesty is the foundation for New Trust. No trust, no marriage. No honesty, no trust.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/5/2020 19:33 PM

Thank you everyone. All of your posts both for, against and neutral about giving her the letter had me thinking a lot.

The most simple, and basic truth is from ChamomileTea. It simplifies everything... It's not a question of her telling me what I know or if I should give her another letter or even adopting the 180 or being a grey rock...

"You are either going to adopt a policy of complete honesty or you are getting divorced."

And while I do have the letter I'm going to start a fire to have some smores with the boys tonight. Before they come down, I'm going to start the fire and put the letter in the fire. This will happen after WW leaves for work.

WW works 3rd shift tonight. She leaves before 9. Before she leaves I'm going to tell her that I am not going to argue with her any more. It's not worth it. It comes down to her deciding if she is going to adopt a policy of complete honesty or we are getting divorced. I wont ever again be with someone that is not honest with me, because If I can't trust you, then you can't be in my life.

And Bigger...

She will demand you don’t contact him. I’m telling you here and now that you are not bound by any promise you make or condition she sets.

I agree, that she might ask for that.

Thank you again everyone. You all have been very helpful. I really don't know where I would be without all of the information, advice and experiences you have been sharing. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

WhatsRight posted 7/5/2020 21:56 PM

BSHusbandWI...

I wanted to say a couple of things that may be neither here nor there, based on where you seem to be coming from at this point. I want to say upfront that I am not saying them to minimize the poor choices, poor character, and poor partner your wife has been pertaining to her infidelity.

I’ve just spent the last hour or two reading the entire thread, and I seem to remember toward the first of the thread, you seem upset about her comments… basically wanting you to admit some responsibility.

I’m not sure you ever stated specifically whether she wanted you to admit your responsibility for trouble in the marriage, or she wanted you to admit responsibility for her choice to be unfaithful.

OBVIOUSLY, no BS is EVER responsible for their WS‘s decision to be unfaithful. EVER.

On the other hand, I personally believe that there is no perfect marriage partner, and that we are all partially responsible for struggles in the marriage. (Again, not to be confused with being responsible for their choice to cheat.)

You mentioned in several posts that your wife was upset/irritated that you would not take any responsibility. Is it possible she meant that you should take partial responsibility for the marriage being in a less than ideal place?

If that is the case, then perhaps that is something that you can admit. No one wants to be seen as the only person to contribute to struggles in the marriage. Depending on where you stand with R vs D at this point, my point may be of no consequence. But it could be seen as a concession on your part that every thing wrong with the marriage was not only her fault...as long as she concedes that it was her decision 100% to cheat.

Respectfully, I think the WS are in such a bad place regarding accountability already, that it might be a bridge to calmer conversations at the very least if he/she feels they are not being blamed for every tiny flaw in the marriage.

Also, in one of your posts you were amazed that she was upset with something you did. You said, “I did.....because of what you did!” I think that can be flawed thinking. I can’t remember what you were referring to… Whether it was having no contact with her, or raising your voice, or whatever.

The thing is, we all (BSs) go insane when the WSs say they cheated “because.....”. We say that “I was in the same imperfect marriage, but I didn’t cheat! “

JMHO, it has to go both ways. If one of us should not say “I did… because you did…”, then neither of us should say it.

I apologize profusely if this post comes across as defending the actions of a WS. Trust me… That is not my intention.

I just know, for example, I have been so hard on my FWH, really letting him have it...mostly verbally. And he deserved it. But I think in the midst of all of that, I too must own up to contributing to struggles in the relationship prior to the cheating. I think it is helpful with R and / or D.

I’m sorry that you are having to go through this. It’s a long hard process.

I’m very glad that you found the good people here, and seem to be progressing as well as could be expected.

Many many hopes for your future happiness.

Stevesn posted 7/5/2020 23:33 PM

First of all, I have said all along that rebuilding is all about honesty. The BS needs to clearly and honestly communicate what he needs to see in order to even start trying to rebuild and what will happen if he/she doesn’t. And the WS has to be honest about everything from DDay forward and focus on their BS and no one else from that point on.

Josephs letter was only mentioned because BSH said his WW told him everything she reads says she shouldn’t divulge anything that happened. No details. Josephs letter does a good job telling the WS why it is necessary if rebuilding is ever going to happen.

Here is the salient point from the letter:

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

Saying something like that is absolutely, consistent in my mind, with communicating that Honesty is supreme, the truth must be equally known, otherwise reconciliation is impossible and truly a fools errand.

ChamomileTeas comment is exactly right. And is part of that structure of honesty. I think saying that is absolutely the right thing to do.

BSH, I think your last paragraph was unnecessary. You have the right to be angry and express it when you get the truth. That is part of the honesty of being betrayed. You don’t have to promise not to show emotion. All you have to promise, if she ever gets to the point where she starts taking ownership and action of her infidelity, is to be honest.

I still agree, she’s not there and probably never will be. But if you need words to combat her statements about divulging too much, Joseph’s Letter offers some good ones. They are purely optional. But I just wanted to make sure you are aware they exist.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:34 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

HouseOfPlane posted 7/6/2020 09:13 AM

ChamomileTea:

I don't think it takes a whole letter to say, "You are either going to adopt a policy of complete honesty or you are getting divorced."
Being this blunt is what it took for me to get the truth. Everything else I said was just seen as opportunities to negotiate.

EllieKMAS posted 7/6/2020 10:26 AM

Whatsright - I absolutely agree that both parties have accountability for the marriage. However when one partner decides to cheat instead of addressing the marital issues like a damn grown up, then THAT becomes the overshadowing issue. Everything else takes a back seat. And until/unless the WS is willing to take accountability for their choice to do that, then discussing any of the pre-existing marital issues is off the table.

I am not saying that a BS should be constantly harping on it - especially if R is the path, there comes a point where everyone has to let it go - but in Bsh's case, ww is still firmly in head-up-ass mode and taking little or no accountability for her cheating and displaying NO remorse or transparency. So, no. Right now, he doesn't have to figure out his part in the M. She nullified the terms of that contract. And her trying to bring up marital issues at this point is nothing but some bullshit blame-shifting and he is under no obligation to deal with it at the moment.

Just my 0.02.

beenthereinco posted 7/6/2020 10:26 AM

Being this blunt is what it took for me to get the truth. Everything else I said was just seen as opportunities to negotiate.

If something is a non-negotiable item then there is nothing wrong with stating it bluntly.

Westway posted 7/6/2020 11:30 AM

I think I am going to write another letter to her.

Don't. It makes you look weak and it makes her feel like you are still invested in her. If you have any chance of making her pull her head out of her ass then she must believe you are ending the marriage and moving on with no thought to her. Although I cannot understand why you would continue to want an asshole like her in your life, the only way to save this marriage you want is to risk losing it.

So quit sending her letters, stop sending her books and articles, stop talking to her. None of that has done any good, and continuing doing so will continue to give you only net negative results. Einstein said something to the effect that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result each time.

[This message edited by Westway at 11:30 AM, July 6th (Monday)]

shareonhearts posted 7/6/2020 11:51 AM

Howdy Hostile
First off I'm so sorry for all your pain. I have been through this twice with two different outcomes. My first husband cheated (22) years married with little to no remorse. He did disclose his affair partners name but it didn't solve anything. He never offered me anything that was healing for me...Meaning remorse, apology, hard damned work on the marriage.....I feel as I've read your thread that this is where you may be stuck? She just isn't giving you what you need as a human to move forward. I'm so sorry and trust me...I know it hurts like HELL.
Then again I got treated to this shit sandwhich….20 plus years later....I've elected to stay for a variety of reasons but the most important is REMORSE and actively addressing our issues....I'm not a young woman but trying to still navigate through this mess....I believe you have a great life in front of you....take the brass ring and move forward if you can. Trust me, as they say Recovery isn't for the faint of heart!

Wishing you the best in this one beautiful life we have! S

[This message edited by shareonhearts at 11:59 AM, July 6th (Monday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/6/2020 13:28 PM

Well, I saw a glimmer of hope last night that she might be remorseful.

She had read the beginning of helping your spouse heal from your infidelity. She came down and said it was the worst time for her to do that (has period and also getting ready to go to work). She broke down and said how she fucked everything up and that now she continues to fuck up her kids even now.

She also said she'd do legal D mediation - jumped to it. I still believe that she just doesn't want to share any information about the affair with me. She also left the door open for discussing (she didn't describe what she'd be willing to discuss) with the MC. If it's the affair with the three of us, I would do that. No relationship stuff, though.

So, I have been playing phone tag with the lawyer today. I'm going to talk through options with her and just move forward.

I have IC tomorrow. I'm going to set the record undeniably straight on the requirements for the three of us meeting. If he can't abide by my rules, then it's a no go.

I'm trying to walk a tight rope. Move forward with D, while trying to at least get a name, what he does, how they met, the timeline and light details on how many times they met up somewhere (for now, more details than that just don't matter).

WhatsRight posted 7/6/2020 13:30 PM

EllieKMAS...

when one partner decides to cheat instead of addressing the marital issues like a damn grown up, then THAT becomes the overshadowing issue.

I could not agree with you more!

Thanks for stating that very clearly… I may not have made it clear in my post that I believe the same thing.

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