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Stevesn posted 7/4/2020 19:50 PM

Let me show you successful WW/BH reconciliation. Let us show you what that looks like. Iíll link you to a thread below.

Even the path to rebuilding for those considered doing things the right way are Not perfect or pretty.

But one thing is consistent, a WS that comes out of their ďfogĒ and if they do so very quickly and finally, when they do, the WS is fully committed and puts their BSís needs and pain above their own and leads the rebuilding. Does not make the BS pull it out of them.

So start here with part 1. Then Iíll find you part 2. And finally the WSí story and Perspective. This still is not for the faint of heart.

BSH, you are right to say that if your WW does the minimum then maybe you can start to talk reconciliation. Unfortunately I think she thinks if she does the minimum she gets to start dictating terms. As you can see from the following thread, your WW is no where near to the point that you guys can even start your 2-5 year journey.

The couple in this story are still together. Itís been over 4 years and while I think they are doing well, I donít think theyíd say they are fully healed.

Since you got nothing better to do ... take some time and read.....

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=566988&AP=1&HL=38603

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:22 PM, July 4th (Saturday)]

Newlifeisgreat posted 7/4/2020 21:46 PM

And it took his wife ha e a complete psychotic episode, where she was curled up in a ball, having urinated all over herself, and repeatedly saying that her husband and children hate her before she understood what she really did!!!! And I actually respect her as one of the very few cheaters who finally understood what she did to her husband and family

Newlifeisgreat posted 7/4/2020 21:49 PM

Stevens, can you also find the wifeís threads? That way he can see the difference between Wallopedís wife and his own wife?

Stevesn posted 7/4/2020 22:57 PM

Yes. Letís see if itís at all helpful first reading this one before we inundate him with reading assignments. But yes I agree if he can see a truly remorseful WW it will be illuminating to him.

Hedwig posted 7/5/2020 07:55 AM

What about someone who moved to D... What was your story of trusting another?

Not divorced, we were never married, but I am almost 3 months away from ending the relationship.

I have not started dating yet, because I know I am not ready. Exhibit A: the other night I was talking to some guys who played in a band I went to see (with social distancing). Two of them were acting kinda flirty, so I asked them if they had a girlfriend. And yes, yes they did. I got so mad, I even got a little bitchy with them. Had I not asked, I doubt they would have told me. My wounds are still fresh so I am going to stay away from these type of conversations for the foreseeable future. I am not able to trust anyone yet.


ETA: And I got the 'whole' truth from my wexbf, but that's really only just the beginning. Like another poster said before: they have to be willing to admit that things within them are broken, that a lack of character is what made them cheat AND begin to work on healing those broken things, before you can consider R.

[This message edited by Hedwig at 7:58 AM, July 5th (Sunday)]

Stinger posted 7/5/2020 09:42 AM

The trust thing has never been the same for me. But, one thing I can suggest for you is to research personality disorders and the signs of them.

A large % of cheaters seem to fit the criteria for at least one of the Cluster B disorders. You may be able to minimize your risk to an extent f youncan spot these folks.

Oh, andhave very strict boundaries as to getting involved with anyone who has ever cheated in any capacity in the past either as a WS or AP. Just never date anyone with this history.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/5/2020 10:44 AM

Hedwig:

Two of them were acting kinda flirty, so I asked them if they had a girlfriend. And yes, yes they did. I got so mad, I even got a little bitchy with them. Had I not asked, I doubt they would have told me.

That must have been difficult. Sorry. And I'm absolutely sure they would NOT have volunteered that information.

I don't know how I'll view it moving forward, but before all of this, I thought that it's okay if me and my wife did some harmless flirting as long as it was not in front of one another. I would define that as a bit of suggestive dialog, maybe some suggestive eyes. What I've done personally is if there comes a point where my flirting self or the flirting woman does any of the following, I literally have walked away...1) touching of any kind - a hand on a knee, arm, back, touching of really any kind. 2) Any suggestions to exchange numbers, 3) going someplace together or be alone, even in the corner of a bar, 4) If I wanted to buy a woman a drink, I just never did. Seems wrong. If my wife had a drink bought for her by a man, I suppose she should accept it, but then say she's happily married. The accepting a drink in some ways begins a slippery slope to me, but a marriage should be able to overcome a drink.

I thought flirting like I described, with those boundaries can be a good thing. You feel a bit desirable, it keeps you confident in yourself and maybe even get you going back to your spouse a with a little bit of sass in your step as you get intimate because you're more confident.

I don't know about any of that anymore.

BTW, I moved to the basement to sleep since she will not leave the house. The basement is nice and also where I worked so I feel comfortable there.

She came down this morning trying to take control of the situation by saying she needed a computer because I wont talk to her. I asked what she needed it for. She wouldn't say. I said, for the internet, right? Use your iPad.

When she complained that I expect her to just do what I say (on disclosure and the things asked for in the letter) and feel how I want her to feel, I said that she regrets what she did, but she's not remorseful. I told her that I would send her a book (How to help your Spouse Heal from Your Infidelity - Thanks Stevesn for suggesting Walloped's JFO postings). I have sent that. I don't think she'll read it. She doesn't want to be blamed for being a bad person anymore. I don't think her narcissism can handle it. So, she's just ready to call it quits. While that destroys me - not because I know I want to R - I don't right now, but because I want to KNOW. It's why I keep giving her options to be remorseful and share what happened.

None of what I described in the last two paragraphs went down as cleanly as I wrote it. A ton of heated, but not yelling, arguments by both - talking over one another and ending with me finally putting a headset in and watching a youtube video so I couldn't hear her. At that point she literally stood there and talked for what seemed like a very long time - probably only 3-4 minutes. All the while I could not hear a word she was saying. I just sat at my desk, stared at my screen while I could hear that she was talking and saw her gesturing with my peripheral vision. As she stopped and walked away, I said, "I hope you feel better, I din't hear a single word of what you just said."

I think that me continuing to ask for information is seen as a weakness or pick me. Right? While I know I've written that I realize I may never know anything extra than I know today. I can't imagine that ACTUALLY ending up being the case. I don't know how to grapple with that reality. Seriously? Who the fuck is this POS? What does he do for a living? When and how did it start? How could I have stopped it?

My mind can't understand how she continues to choose him. Let's pretend she was doing the adultery for a year. We have a life together and while it has issues, we have two awesome boys, a great house, tons of memories raising our boys, etc. - for over 22 years we built together. AND SHE CHOOSES HIM?!?!? IT'S INFURIATING, CONFUSING, SAD, EMASCULATING. DEPRESSING AND MAKES ME WANT TO DESTROY SOMETHING!

I'm not sure what a panic attack feels like, but I may be having them on and off. I get so anxious thinking that I will never know. OMG, I cant bear the thought of that. She claims she blocked his number and hasn't been in contact with him. if that's true, WHY WONT SHE PROVE THAT TO ME?!?! Deep down I know the answer. I just can't face it. She said today that everything that she has read says that it's not good to talk about the details. I said I didn't know what the fuck she was reading, but I've read exactly the opposite and I FEEL exactly the opposite. So, that's a huge chasm and impass for us.

Three of my friends and family have confronted me nicely that they were worried about my drinking. I've slowed down - especially after Saturday. I have never been a runner or anything like that, but I did go on two walks and will do more. I know you're all going to tell me to stop drinking - so let me have it. Not sure that will happen, but maybe a wine or drink with dinner and that's it.

During all of these emotions and happenings, I've completed the initial D filing and 90% of the proposed parenting plan legal documents. I'm doing that even though I know that moves me away from getting the information I need, I'm doing it. Not easily, but doing it.

I think I am going to write another letter to her. I want her to HONESTLY tell me why she wont share any information about the adultery. I understand that she doesn't want to retell anything because then she's the bad person at every disclosure. I'm sure that would be hard. I think even harder hearing about the betrayal from my point of view. I just think those two excuses are lame. Give me and HONEST reason why you wont share information.

I just re-read everything I wrote. It's the worst circus ever - full of jeering clowns that laugh at me, man eating tigers that love to tear me apart and then gorge on my heart, elephants that stomp on my feelings, and a Ringmaster that is happy to make herself the main act while I suffer.

I just don't know anymore. Yesterday, I just sat around a lot (and read a lot of Walloped's postings) as I sat I just sat. Sad. Didn't really have a lot of specific thoughts that I can remember. I feel like I'm wasting away - eroding into I don't know what. I can't believe how fucked up this is and how I can't get away from it. I'm a strong, educated, opinionated man.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/5/2020 10:52 AM

Oh and she also was saying the problem is, it's all about my ego.

I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO RESPOND TO THAT. It feels like such an insensitive, bullshit, unloving thing to say to someone you cheated on.

goalong posted 7/5/2020 12:28 PM

I am afraid you are spiraling back to the mental state you had at the beginning. However it is normal to go on a roller coaster.
I do not think writing another letter helps. Your uncompromising stand is you need to know who the POS is and the timeline.
So if you are SURE about it tell her ether that or it will be D. (or you need to know it to start possible R) So it will take a burden off you.

You are the victim and you are not in a strong mental state. So having the same discussion back and forth affects you more that your WW.
Do not behave like you did during the conversation you described. Be polite and if you want to end the discussion say so politely. You should not make her angry and resentful. Because whatever happened you have along way to go with her

Hope you do other things even better. To function productively in the face adversity is sexy. Drinking and other self harming behavior only affect you and you look weak in the fave of everyone including your kids and WW. So you are in contact with people who care about you . Listen to their opinions and also double check what your think and do with them.
In Buddhism there are two sermons. One describe the things that make your life in this world better (mangala sutta). The other describes the things that lead to self destruction (parabhava sutta) Taking intoxicants is one of the main items listed in it.

[This message edited by goalong at 1:14 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

HellFire posted 7/5/2020 12:32 PM

No more letters. No more telling her what you need. No more explaining how you feel.

Stop.


She thinks she still has the upper hand, and can control the situation, because of these letters. She sees it as weakness.

She knows what you want and need. And she doesn't care. That's why she hasn't done anything. That's why she is arguing. She. Does. Not. Care.

Bigger posted 7/5/2020 12:58 PM

How to respond to that?
I gave you the boilerplate text back on page 2:

If she says she had the affair because you were emotionally distant: ďIím sorry you feel that way. We would need to address this if we were working on reconciliation, but since you have decided to choose your infidelity over our marriage there isnít any need to go thereĒ.
This is your standard go-to answer to ANY marital issue.

So when she says itĎs all about your ego:
ďIím sorry you feel that way. We would need to address this if we were working on reconciliation, but since you have decided to choose your infidelity over our marriage there isnít any need to go thereĒ.

Bigger posted 7/5/2020 13:00 PM

This should be clear to her because ALSO on page 2 I suggested you make this clear to her:

If you want this marriage and tell me so in a clear unequivocal manner, then there are some requirements I need. I need total commitment, accountability and transparency and I need the name of the OM. Without this then I know we canít reconcile and Iím OK with that. It beats sharing you.Ē

ChamomileTea posted 7/5/2020 13:09 PM

She said today that everything that she has read says that it's not good to talk about the details.

That's actually true. In most of the books and articles I've read, experts agree that it's not good to get into the details, particularly the sexual details. Like I said in an earlier post, every detail creates a new trigger. If you find out that she went fro a Subway sandwich with her AP, every time you go by that chain for YEARS, you'll have a reaction to it.

That said, I believe that the "experts" are wrong. As the wounded party, you need to be able to CHOOSE the level of detail you need. You need to know, before you commit to R, that honesty has been restored, that you can ask ANY question, no matter how uncomfortable it is, and get the truth. I do think the experts are right that you should be careful what questions you ask. My own method was to only ask questions which helped my process. "How does the answer help ME". But after I ran it through my own personal data sifter, I knew that whatever I asked, I'd get the truth. You just can't R without that.

Your WW won't even give you the name of the AP, and I don't know ANY "experts" who would call that a "detail". The "who, what, when, and how" are typically expected.

Thanksgiving2016 posted 7/5/2020 13:23 PM

I think you know the person. Itís why she will not tell you. Itís still ongoing and she doesnít want you monitoring him because it would make it easier for you to know they are in contact.

Stevesn posted 7/5/2020 13:34 PM

Hi BSH. (btw I sent you a PM)

As I and others said before, itís up to the BS to clearly communicate what they need to see (what actions over words) in order to even consider trying to START rebuilding. You have done that. Stick to it. It is not up to the BS to hold her hand in getting those things done. Her A shows sheís more than capable of organizing and planning and executing complex actions. Doing it for her will only make those things ridiculous and useless.

As for needing to know, of course, I also would need to know.

Iím going to point you to another tool here at SI. Maybe someone already has. If so sorry for the repetition.

Go to the HEALING LIBRARY in the upper right and click on Articles. Find JOSEPHS LETTER and read it and see if it resonates with you. If you want to communicate something you can copy and paste it into WORD and write it in your own voice. Or just print it, cut off anything that identifies this site, and give it to her telling her you think the sentiments in it closely resemble what you are trying to tell her.

Otherwise keep on the path you are on. She is playing defense still. Sheís heavily into rewriting history and proving what she did was the right thing to do.

I still believe you have nothing to work with yet. I told another poster that his WWís change for the better means simply she stopped in her tracks on the wrong path, turned and is now facing him. That doesnít mean she has done anything yet to rebuild, but sheís finally facing in that direction.

Your wife is still running down a path away from her. Your actions may have slowed her from a sprint to a jog, but she still is getting farther from you with every single thing she says and does.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:37 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/5/2020 15:08 PM

Hellfire: She just knows how to push my buttons - so she does that and it drags me into an argument and removes me from being a grey rock. I have to be stronger about not talking unless she wants to discuss the timeline or something that is on the list from the letter.

Bigger: Thank you. Very helpful:

We would need to address this if we were working on reconciliation, but since you have decided to choose your infidelity over our marriage there isnít any need to go thereĒ.

And you did tell me to make it clear to her about my requirements. I did. I need to repeat it like a broken record, because I forget it too because I'm so fucked up right now

Stevesn:

Her A shows sheís more than capable of organizing and planning and executing complex actions.

That's so ridiculously obvious and true. I think what I have to do is TRULY be okay with not knowing. Whew! Right now, that is a tall order.

I have read JOSEPHS LETTER. It does sum up how I'm feeling and explains the why behind my asks. I copied it and re-did a lot of it by personalizing it. I have it printed in and put it in an envelope. I'm not sure if/when I might give it to her. I have a bit of heartache on giving it to her because I sort of feel like I'm begging for information in a pretty passive way (being super nice and understanding and all). But also, she doesn't seem to respond too well to me being a grey rock. Maybe one last letter to see if it can bring her to the table to provide some information. I did add the paragraph below at the end. What do you all think about the paragraph below? Or the pros/cons of sending the letter at all?

Here's the last paragraph: "So, let me know if this makes any sense to you at all and if youíre willing to talk about the affair. If you are, I promise that I will work very hard and do my best to not be spiteful or lash out at you or figuratively dig and twist the knife in deeper as we discuss."

[This message edited by BSHusbandWI at 3:17 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

TheGuy123 posted 7/5/2020 15:28 PM

She is right it is about your ego.

She crushed it and isn't doing a dam thing to repair it.

Your reply...." yes it's my ego, and you know what it will take to heal my ego but won't do a thing to help me heal it!"

She has a play book to repair her marriage right in front of her. Is she just that stupid or is this an exit plan she has?

The way I see it is you might get all the details of the A in the courthouse parking lot when you go to finalize the D but until then she isn't going to say a thing....that's my $0.02

At the end of the day you gotta stop engaging her.

I get it ...she keeps engaging you! well there is one thing you want from her so when engaged keep asking the same question that makes her unengaged.

[This message edited by TheGuy123 at 3:52 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/5/2020 15:34 PM

She has a play book to repair her marriage right in front of her. Is she just that stupid or is this an exit plan she has?

It very well could be an exit plan.

But maybe not one she's fully committed to. Otherwise, why go see my counselor? Or consider mediation?

Just rip off the band aid and head straight to D-town, right?

TheGuy123 posted 7/5/2020 15:46 PM

Even with a full time line of my WW's who, were, and when regarding her A's it took a about 3 yrs and through those three yrs my old lady had complete submission regarding what I want.

As far as intimacy... if you want to call hard and rough sex intimate well the hate phucking happened right of way.

I'm wired different then most so lets just say I'm not the best example here, but I have been around enough to know your old lady is no where close to having any kind of submission required in helping you heal.

You keep heading in the direction you are heading. This divorce is the best option for you with regard to the kind of chick you got now.

RUN FOREST RUN!!!!!

TheGuy123 posted 7/5/2020 16:14 PM

Your letter sucks!

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