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Tigersrule77 posted 7/1/2020 07:16 AM

She has complained angrily that "my letter that was full of blame, and written to make her the bad person to my family and the kids will be answered point by point in writing"

You now know from all of her responses, including this one, that she is re-writing history and trying to blame you for the problems in the M and you chased her into the arms of the OM. Any letter she gives you will be an attack on you. Don't bother to read it. She has already told you all you need to know by her actions.

Her actions/defense of herself are similar to this: You are at a bar and step on someone's foot. You give a quick "i'm sorry", which the other person doesn't accept, pulls out a gun and shoots you in the stomach. You eventually recover, but will have to live with pain the rest of your life. Shooter says "you stepped on my foot and didn't MEAN it when you apologize, so you're just as much at fault for this! Don't make ME out to be the bad person!"

Her thinking is so flawed you cannot have a rational conversation. Don't waste your time in trying to do so, because logic won't work. As an example, you might explain to your WW that for the last several months (or longer) she has been very cold to you. She will say that it is because YOU have mistreated her, and the A and her feelings for the AP have nothing to do with it. Does that make any sense? No. Go no contact.

goalong posted 7/1/2020 08:25 AM

I sit here typing this, having wiped tears from my eyes multiple times - alone - and realizing that the journey that I have ahead of me is mostly alone

Wish you a strong mind. Every end is a new beginning and what does not kill you make you stronger. Making progress is the best response you can make. The down feelings are normal and gradually fade away specially if you are thinking positively. Focus on you and hope you find a job, keep people who care about you in the loop. talking to loved ones is a great help in a time like this (and with them you are not alone). WW has not been partial to you for several years. So there is no point in thinking about her or expecting her to change. Be cordial and indifferent and make plans to get the best deal for you.
"“Every morning we are born again. What we do today is what matters most.” -Buddha

[This message edited by goalong at 8:36 AM, July 1st (Wednesday)]

EllieKMAS posted 7/1/2020 08:57 AM

First, right under the surface of all of this bluster and self assurance I'm dong my best to show (more on that in a bit) is a mess of a man. I have no confidence, doubt myself and my manliness, feel ashamed, out of control with an amount of rage, anger and aggression that I never thought I was capable of. On top of that I have an extreme need to catch her and that POS, find out who he is and bring his life as he knows it to a crumbling halt by exposing him.
What you are feeling is NORMAL. This is allllll part of the shitshow. It sucks - we have all been there and know exactly what you're talking about. It is okay to be a mess. It is okay to be mad. It is okay to be sad. But hard as it may be, you just have to keep that rage in the box. Bigger picture - you are taking the steps you need to get out of all this. Letting the rage spiral out of control keeps you sucked into the shit. If you need to rage, come vent here. And last - YOU have nothing to be ashamed about. NOTHING. This is all on her.

I know that I will have a very hard time trusting many that I encounter in my life and that scar and ability to actively give trust is something that I feel is no longer in my nature (and while you all don't know me, I gave trust away pretty freely during my life - and now I don't think I can expose my soul like that any longer). I have to find some way to rebuild myself because I don't feel like the same person anymore.
You aren't the same person anymore. Being hurt this way changes you profoundly. But that is ok. Because you are still YOU. I know it doesn't feel like that right this second, but I promise you will find yourself again under all this shit. It just takes time (and oh how I hated hearing that right after dday, but it's true). Trust will happen again too. IME, I feel like getting through this shit has made me leaner and meaner in the trust department. And really that isn't such a bad thing after all is said and done.

As for relationships... you aren't even close to there yet. Hard as it may be, just put that in the 'future bridges to cross' pile and don't worry about it for right now. And just as an aside - being single ain't all that bad.

She has complained angrily that "my letter that was full of blame, and written to make her the bad person to my family and the kids will be answered point by point in writing" that's basically what she said.
Blahblahblah... noise. That is all this is. Her playing her little violin for her poor self. RME. I remember after dday being so torn. My xwh was the guy I had trusted and loved and my best friend and all of a sudden it was like he was an alien. The urge to act the way I always had to him was strong, and I did try to keep acting the same (with disastrous results). I didn't listen to people who advised the 180, and I should have. But even not doing the 180, realization slowly came to me at how pathetic and ri-fucking-diculous he is as a person. I mean... seriously. And cheaters are all the same. They are pathetic and ridiculous and your ww is too. You keep taking care of you and that lightbulb will turn on soon. It helps when you start to really SEE.

Also in interactions today were her saying that she was listening to a self-help book. To which I replied, "That's great" without trying to sound sarcastic or like I didn't care. But she accused me of saying in a tone that wasn't nice. I reminded her that, I said "That's great" and I have no control how she takes that in and interprets it.
Blanket response - I'm sorry you feel that way. Broken record, just repeat that.

I sit here typing this, having wiped tears from my eyes multiple times - alone - and realizing that the journey that I have ahead of me is mostly alone. Yes, i have all of you for support, and my friends and family and I hope my two boys, but the struggles, and personal and emotional growth are mine to own and I am hoping I am up to the task so I can be whole again... some day. I don't know how that is going to happen.
When you are early in, it feels overwhelming and insurmountable like nothing else in your life ever has. But you do it the same way you do anything else. One little step at a time. Just remember that even slow moving is still moving forward, and be compassionate to yourself. It is perfectly okay if you have a hard day or you feel shattered. Take a rest when you need to. But keep moving forward. I know it feels like you will always feel this way, I felt like that after dday too. Like I would never be able to laugh or feel happy or feel anything other than bleak and despairing. But I got past it and you will too.

I think I'm doing the right things, but most things do not feel right. Especially me.

Sorry to ramble, I don't think I have ever been so unsure of myself at any point in my life.

You are doing the right things even if it doesn't feel that way. And never ever apologize for rambling. Sometimes your brain just needs to do. And if anyone was sure of how to handle this shit, SI wouldn't exist.

You are really doing well with all of this. Way the hell better than I did after dday, that's for certain. Just keep breathing - you will make it through this.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/1/2020 09:38 AM

A really good friend of mine who has a great marriage, recommended I take up walking. So, I might try that later today with the dog.

Annndddd... yet two more attempts to get me talking about our relationship. This time I had to physically walk away. It was the first things out of her mouth to me today - all before 9 am.

She wondered (in a complaining way) what I did... I was like What?? Like did i feed the dogs, what about water the plants in the back yard. She asked if I was just going to do what I wanted to do and nothing else? and then then started talking about our relationship - and that's the problem with our entire marriage...

So now for my question. Those plants out back. They look nice. To be completely honest, I watered them each morning because I knew she wanted them watered and also because it was sort of ritualistic in the early morning all alone (kind of a good way to start the day - even before all this happened). Do I keep doing things that I did because she wanted them done (like things around the house) or not. She's a bit OCD about the house - that's been good for the house over the years. If I don't do these things that she has a higher degree of caring about, then unless she changes her behavior she will just do them. Do I let that happen? I do want her to come to the mediation table. Maybe it makes sense to do some of that to not turn her even more against me.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/1/2020 09:55 AM

Oh and i almost forgot...

I apparently have given up on the marriage because I wont talk about our relationship. - While not said, the implication is that I am to blame because I have given up.

I did not take the bait. Let it go. and then decided to send her the text below:

I choose not to discuss our relationship NOT because I have given up on us. It is because there is nothing to discuss. For the record you gave up on us when you gave yourself permission to take those early steps toward cheating. I already said in my letter that I take 50% of the blame for problems in our marriage, but the adultery is 100% on you. You chose to have the affair rather than work on our problems. You also have the choice to show me you are interested in trying to heal together. So far your choices have been to cancel therapy and expect me to get over it and just trust you. That is completely unrealistic and not something I can do at this time.

No response. But in retrospect that's engaging with her and "discussing". Maybe I should not have sent that text.

EllieKMAS posted 7/1/2020 10:06 AM

No response. But in retrospect that's engaging with her and "discussing". Maybe I should not have sent that text
. FWIW, that is a stellar text. Just saying. But yeaaaahhhh, probably better to keep any texting to discussions of kids/finances only. Oh and save ALL texts from here on out - you never know when you might need them for legal reasons.

As far as doing things like watering the plants... as I said, I did not do the 180, so not sure of the 'rule', but I would say if that is something you enjoy then keep doing it. No need to discuss it with her. But household stuff? Nope. You take care of your things only. And kids stuff if needed.

Just want to point out here too (I know you've noticed, but just to validate) notice how her go-to here is to blame... YOU? It's allll your fault. You gave up. Blahblahblah. Funny how none of this would be happening if she hadn't cheated on her husband and betrayed her family huh? Cheaters are so boringly predictable.

How's your son doing? Have you gotten a VAR to carry on you?

BSHusbandWI posted 7/1/2020 10:11 AM

I took the VAR out of the car and keep it on my person.

It was draining and painful to listen to it. I was called a piece of shit multiple times by her and her girlfriend. I don't need that. Hearing it once was enough

HouseOfPlane posted 7/1/2020 10:14 AM

Along with being a shitshow of suck, dealing with an affair is also a learning exercise in human behavior.

For your WW, when she corresponds or talks to you, before engaging with the content ask yourself if she is communicating or manipulating. After you realize she is in fact manipulating (I bet), try to figure out what is the desired outcome she is trying to manipulate you into. A better settlement? Make you hurt? Etc. In short, go past the surface and dive down into the real message in the message.

If you can give her what she wants, do it. Won't be true for much, but you don't have to die on every hill.

That coin lands on both sides. When you send her a message, ask yourself... are you communicating or manipulating? I think you'll find (as is true for pretty much all of us) that when you scrutinize it, we all do an awful lot of trying to manipulate.

If you can focus on just communicating, it will help minimize the pain of getting through this mess.

That's the beauty of letting lawyers do the negotiations. They just communicate.

Sending strength!

ShutterHappy posted 7/1/2020 10:15 AM

Cheaters believe what they need to believe when they need to believe.

Your WW believes she’s the victim. There’s not much you can do except moving on.

aprilfool1985 posted 7/1/2020 10:20 AM

Keeping the VAR on your person is a very good idea at this point you already know that your WW will say mean things about you.

goalong posted 7/1/2020 10:24 AM

Your WWW is living in the mindset of her younger POS friend's age. If you separate expect her to go on the fast track to get burned out acting and doing things to feel and look younger. If you want to catch the OM I think you should have a thick head and keep the VAR in the car

smolderingdark posted 7/1/2020 10:36 AM

Do I keep doing things that I did because she wanted them done?.... Maybe it makes sense to do some of that to not turn her even more against me.

She is already against you regardless of what you do. Bribery to keep the peace does not work. If you wish to do something around the house that benefits the sale of the home go for it. If you wish to do something that benefits you and makes you happy go for it. You should not bother doing anything for her benefit. It will not keep the peace, nor will it bring her to the mediating table. Your wayward wife is angry and unreasonable because she has been caught and she is no longer in control of you, the narrative or anything else.

As for the last text you sent, perhaps you shouldn't have sent it. Why not? It was to the point and very well written. There was no wiggle room or ambiguity in the message. What part of any of it can she refute? You claimed your half of the marital problems. The cheating was 100% her choice. She has done nothing to attempt to reconcile. She is silent on the matter for these reasons.

Your refusal to discuss the relationship. Why don't we properly classify what her definition of discussion is. When you deny the "discussion" all you are truly denying is the opportunity for her to attempt to control, manipulate and rewrite the situation to her advantage.

Keep the VAR going. I am sorry you have heard what you have heard. Cheaters always denigrate their loyal spouses. They certainly would find it more difficult justifying their affair if they described you in more respectable terms. Would suggest you save the recording of her calling you what she has called you for deployment at a later date. No doubt if you were to confront her she would deny such a thing. Picture her reaction if you played that recording back to her in the company of your sons. Consider sharing the recording with your sons if you feel she is successfully turning them against you. Exposure of this kind is nuclear and last resort. Keeping her unaware of the recordings gives you a big advantage.

Would recommend you get a second VAR and keep it in her car. Painful as it is the information you will get should prove useful.

BSHusbandWI posted 7/1/2020 10:45 AM

i did look up laws regarding recording in my state.

It is a one-party state. If I am a part of the convo, then i can legally record.

Just leaving it in the car is a felony. While I know the chances are low in getting caught. Me getting convicted of a felony, would be bad for my boys, I doubtfully would get any kind of custody and have a significantly harder time gaining employment.

Those downsides don't make it palatable for me to record illegally.

Dismayed2012 posted 7/1/2020 11:01 AM

You're in your valley of death right now BSHusbandWI. We've all be there. Just keep walking; don't stop while you're in there. It'll feel like it's taking forever but you'll see the way out; keep putting on foot in front of the other.

Also, regardless of where you are in the process, don't water the plants if it's only because she wants them watered. They're her plants, she can water them herself. Allow her to experience life without you doing her chores for her. Don't do anything that you don't feel like doing. This life is about you now. Begin living for yourself and for your own happiness. Make choices that benefit you, that make you content, that get you free from the cheater, and that brighten your future.

Take care of yourself; you're worth it. I wish the best for you.

ChamomileTea posted 7/1/2020 11:22 AM

Do I keep doing things that I did because she wanted them done (like things around the house) or not. She's a bit OCD about the house - that's been good for the house over the years. If I don't do these things that she has a higher degree of caring about, then unless she changes her behavior she will just do them. Do I let that happen? I do want her to come to the mediation table.

Do things that benefit you and/or your children. What she wants is no longer pertinent. If you enjoy watering those plants, do it. If you'll be selling your home and they add to the value, do it. If you think it's going to make her behave herself at the mediation table... well, look at her behavior so far. It doesn't seem likely.

She asked if I was just going to do what I wanted to do and nothing else? and then then started talking about our relationship - and that's the problem with our entire marriage...

One time response... "There is no marriage. If you had wanted to discuss the state of our relationship, you should have done it BEFORE you committed adultery. Now, there's nothing to discuss but our divorce. I hope you'll be cooperative on that, but it's happening either way." After that, you just walk away.

Pat answers are "Is this about our divorce?" "Is this about the children?", "I'll ask my attorney", "I'm not discussing that", "I'm sorry you feel that way."

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 11:23 AM, July 1st (Wednesday)]

Westway posted 7/1/2020 14:05 PM

Someone on another site told me to try to act like Spock from Star Trek when I'm around WW. Dispassionate but not angry. Factual and to the point, keep emotion out of it. Every conversation you have with her going forwards should be strictly business. You don't have to be a dick, just be honest and direct.

Stevesn posted 7/1/2020 15:02 PM

I like your response and also really like what ChamomileTea recommended as an addition.

Reminding her that she is now a cheater and as such there is no longer a “we” until she does the things to fix herself and why she thought cheating was the answer to your marriage issues. Point her back to your original letter?

Was one of the things you put in the letter as a requirement that she go NC with the AP and also the “fun friend?” You know she’s at least talking to her. So she has not even reaches step one. Onward to mediation.

It’s amaZing to me that she cannot even acknowledge the pain she caused you.

Telling her that at some point you would have been willing to work on the marriage, but her affair added a whole new level of pain that must be addressed before everything else is a very good thing to communicate.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:02 PM, July 1st (Wednesday)]

BSHusbandWI posted 7/1/2020 16:04 PM

Went to counseling. First session. He's a good listener. He asked some good questions. One was if WW changed her mind and wanted to do couples therapy, is that some that I would consider.

I took awhile to answer. What went through my mind before I answered... She's not interested in doing that. I can't even get her to tell me his name. If she was interested, I'm not sure I could ever trust her again let alone, if we healed enough to be intimate, what she would be thinking as we got into it - comparing me to him, thinking about him instead of me. That's just fucked. A bunch of other stuff too.

I told him that my main worry about marriage counseling was that we'd talk about our past relationship and that I can't do that until the adultery has been dealt with - because I couldn't begin to deal with the relationship until I can see the timeline of events, her feelings throughout the timeline, the lies she told - that all of it needed to come out. If we did that first, then yes, I would do counseling with her. If not, then no. He agreed to that and asked me to invite her to a session with him (so we each have equal time with him) and then we could meet together after that.

I did that with WW when I got back, but it wasn't much of an invite, I have to admit - not a very warm invite.

Plus I did that in my letter and also scheduled time for us all to attend together - which she pulled out of and so did I because of the reasons above about discussing the relationship. I have also asked many times for information and while i got a bit of info (including two stories of how it started/they met) - I don't even have the clarity of his name, when it started and a TONS of other pieces of info. I wont beg for information from her anymore. If I am destined to never have that information, then I guess that's the way it is.

So I have my next appointment a week from Friday.

And in front of my younger boy, she asked again (irritated and a bit angry) about if I was going to water the plants and take care of things or just let everything go to shit? I simply did not answer and let her anger speak for itself. BTW, this was after she had asked me less than 20 minutes before... my response was to say that it rained yesterday, so I wasn't going to water today. She went out and watered AND THEN LATER she brought it up in front of younger boy. She sure is making a show of our being able to get along.

Any advice on how to deal with her marketing to the boys how she's doing all this "stuff" around the house? Or just do my thing and not worry about it? Anything I should address with the boys?


Stinger posted 7/1/2020 18:39 PM

This woman is an absolute psychopath. Just completely ignore her. Go dark. Get to a lawyer.

Buffer posted 7/1/2020 19:36 PM

Just use her bondages restraints on the plants.
Buffer

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