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Where to draw the line

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Iamtrash posted 8/13/2019 16:00 PM

BH is fluctuating between sorrow and extreme anger. Understandably and rightfully. But where do you draw the line between hearing what he has to say and things that are out of control.

Iím trying to find whys. We are getting into past issues. If I refuse to engage, Iím wrong. If I agree, Iím wrong. If I defend myself, Iím wrong. I anticipated that. What I havenít anticipated is being told to die. Being told to kill myself. Having my phone taken from me during a heated argument after him jabbing at me and saying ďwhat are you gonna do about it?Ē Being told I have to leave my home (both names on the lease). Sending me 80+ messages at work. 40 in my hour of IC. Texting my mother telling her what a shitty mom she was and this is her fault too.

He wants to say Iím narcissistic. That thereís nothing to fix. Bet he didnít mention getting out of control. Bet he didnít mention fluctuating between losing his temper and then profusely apologizing because he knew it was wrong.

So again, what it the appropriate amount of backlash to accept? Where do I say enough is enough? I fucked up and hurt him. But being told that if I come home ďitíll become a crime sceneĒ and that I should ďjust call the cops nowĒ isnít ok either.

KingRat posted 8/13/2019 16:07 PM

If you feel an imminent threat of physical harm--leave!! Domestic violence is never excusable. Like we have told you, we all have a choice. We must own our choices and the consequences that result therefrom.

Darkness Falls posted 8/13/2019 16:12 PM

It is totally your choice where to draw the line. Nobody has any say in that but you.

Zugzwang posted 8/13/2019 16:16 PM

He wants to say Iím narcissistic
I can't imagine a true narcissist even being here.

What I havenít anticipated is being told to die. Being told to kill myself.
That would be drawing the line.

Bet he didnít mention getting out of control. Bet he didnít mention fluctuating between losing his temper and then profusely apologizing because he knew it was wrong.
I wouldn't go tit for tat there. Most likely he would just say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Great to point out how a person should be treated after you treated him like shit and want to be shielded from your own shit sandwich. His anger is understandable and he has good reason for it. It doesn't mean you have to be there to take it when it gets to threatening your life or body, leave. I would keep with separation. Tell him you understand, but you will not allow threats on your life. I don't get the phone jabbing thing. Did you tell him he was scaring you?

Iamtrash posted 8/13/2019 16:23 PM

He was touching me. Poking me with his finger. Trying to get me to react. Because if he was ďless of a manĒ, heíd come home and ďbeat the shit out of me.Ē I told him to stop. He didnít. ďWhat are you going to do about it?Ē I threatened to call his mom because she is reasonable and can talk sense into him. He took my phone and didnít give it back. I asked for it back but didnít fight for it.

pinkpggy posted 8/13/2019 16:23 PM

This is exactly how it was for me (the phone and contacting my 75 yo old mom). Even 2.5 he still goes through bouts of rage. I found less and less I can come back from the horrible things he says, even this far out, it's worse because he hasn't taken the time to get counseling or sit and talk with me non raged filled.

Like you I am always willing to talk but not in a manner where I feel intimidated. It's extremely hard. My son has told people that daddy screams and says bad words to mommy. I'm at a loss, because I am responsible for this but I also can't keep going through it.

Figure out what you are ok with. I've found I need to remove myself from the room or just agree to everything to have it end. It's a mind fuck because it's like you deserve it but you don't...

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 4:25 PM, August 13th (Tuesday)]

nightmare01 posted 8/13/2019 17:18 PM

How would you react if everything was reversed?

I can't imagine a true narcissist even being here.

Actually, I've seen that. Not here - but on another forum long ago. The WS was a narcissist, the affairs were all about her seeking validation. When discovered, she threw a huge pity party for herself. According to her, her husband had ignored her needs and driven her into the arms of other men ( ). She actually relished it when her BH got upset, because again, the focus was all on her, and she got to play the victim with her friends and family.

That's obviously not the case here. I just thought I'd mention it.

Barregirl posted 8/13/2019 17:29 PM

If you feel threatened, you draw the line. It is entirely up to you what behavior you will and will not accept.

Chaos posted 8/13/2019 17:49 PM

His feelings (anger, rage, etc.) are completely justified. He canít control how he feels.

His actions (violence, abuse) are all on him. He can control those.

How much you tolerate and where to draw he line is up to you.

Thumos posted 8/13/2019 17:57 PM

BH here. Didn't see a stop sign. It is NEVER ok for a man to physically intimidate a woman (It's also never ok for a woman to feel she has a blank check to strike or a hit a man because "they can take it.") My stepfather was physically abusive toward my mom, and at the young age of 10 I vowed never to use my size and musculature as a man to frighten or hurt any woman and to only use that God-given gift to protect women and make them feel safe (excepting, of course, if I were being attacked and needed to defend myself from real harm). My WW whacked at me with a foam toy out of frustration during a discussion once, and I found it ridiculous and funny and simultaneously also resented it highly -- but I didn't respond in kind. I've also refrained from saying all of the things I'm thinking in my head, because even though I'm leaning toward divorce these days, if we were to D, I want it to be amicable and be able to co-parent peacefully. I do think that WS completely underestimate the off-the-charts anger that betrayed spouses feel, and the anger is only likely to clarify as the shock of the initial trauma wears off. It becomes white hot. That said, a BH needs to find an outlet for that other than raging at the source of their pain. Part of the anger he's dealing with is it is probably dawning on him that you made a very simple calculus when you committed adultery and he didn't rank very high in that cost-benefits analysis. Eating the sh*t sandwich is a humiliating experience, and if you emasculated him with a PA, it's even worse.

nomudnolotus posted 8/13/2019 17:59 PM

BS here. I was angry, very angry, but it's never okay to be abusive towards someone, either physically or emotionally. I see that happen here and it makes me cringe. Honestly if the BS feels the need to emotionally flog their ws, name call, or tell them to die, they should just end it. Cheating is terrible, but it does not give the other spouse an excuse to be emotionally abusive.

Only I can control me, and being abusive towards my spouse is never ok for any reason. Just as cheating is never ok for any reason. We all tell the WS we can't blame the BS for cheating, but why then doe some people say it's okay to blame the WS for their emotional abuse. Both these things break vows.

Iam please don't let your BS abuse you, telling you to die, telling you to kill yourself, these things are awful and abusive. They should have anger absolutely, but expressing it this way is not ok.

Thumos posted 8/13/2019 18:10 PM

Agree completely. Both the physical intimidation and the verbal abuse are toxic and completely unacceptable. If he is unable to restrain himself physically or verbally, then this is probably a deal breaker and he needs to get away from the unending source of his pain - you. And if you really want to reconcile, you should do all of the usual things people here recommend (and that certainly entails empathizing and expecting he will be righteously angry) but you don't have to tolerate abuse. At all.

Carissima posted 8/13/2019 18:12 PM

No stop sign.

So I see you've been posting on your husband's thread (I'm sure they'll be deleted) and there are actually pretty bad allegations of domestic violence from both parties.

As strangers on the internet we don't know the truth but what I would say to both of you is to remove yourselves from the situation. Is there somewhat one of you could you go until you both calm down? This all happened in front of one of your kids for gods sake!

DaddyDom posted 8/13/2019 18:29 PM

@Iamtrash,

I am of two minds while responding to this post.

On one hand, I am worried. Your husband is beyond hurt and angry and has every right to be. As @Chaos said, his feelings are what they are. Right now, there is so much rage and pain that he is lashing out. Maybe find a friend's house to stay at for a week or two and give things some time to calm down?

If he attacks you again in the meantime, and it is more than just words, then use straight-forward phrases to talk to him. "You are scaring me. You are hurting me. I don't want to be around you when you are like this. Step aside and let me leave." Then do whatever you need to in order to stay safe and get away from him.

Now, on the other hand, I also read your husband's posts in JFO. You and I share a lot in common in how we treated our spouses. Like you, I also flaunted the AP around. She met the kids, met my wife, we had sex in our marital bed, and so on. My wife may have been able to forgive me for the sex. She might even have been able to forgive me for the lying and gas-lighting. But I don't think she can ever forgive me for hurting our kids. I can't either frankly. We are in our 3rd year of R, both us working hard at it, and still, she describes the hell I put her through as "murdering her", "raping her (emotionally)" and so forth. To your husband, it must feel as if he had been stabbed in the back over and over and over again, by the one person in the world who had his back, who he trusted. Worse yet, you were able to not only hurt him but used the kids as the knife. As I said, I'm a WS too, and did similar things as you did and if the tables were turned... I'd be pretty enraged as well.

How he is reacting might be a product of how you are reacting. If you are getting defensive, pointing out the things he's done wrong in the marriage, etc., then all that is going to do is hurt him more, and make him angrier. He didn't ask for any of this. This is NOT the time for bringing up what he did wrong. The affair has to be dealt with first. If you are still together after that, then the marriage issues can be dealt with.

What he most likely needs from you right now is to see that you understand the damage done, to hear the acknowledgment from you that you not only know what you did but that you are truly sorry and willing to go to any lengths to make it up to him. That is going to take a lot of soul-searching, humility, honesty, and involve a lot of pride-swallowing. It also involves standing there and taking a lot of anger and blow-back from your betrayed spouse. It just does. And he may accuse you of things that are just flat-out wrong. Which sucks but which is also too bad. When you betray someone to the depths of their soul, they have every reason to think the worst of you and zero reasons to believe or trust anything you say or do. It is not a punishment. They are the consequences of our actions.

Do you have to take it? Nope. You can leave at any time. But in doing so you also destroy a lot more things. You destroy any chance of saving the marriage. Worse yet, you close the door on making positive changes in yourself, changes that will help you to prevent future misdeeds like this one.

Please take care, and be safe. Everything about the affair was about you, your needs, your feelings, and you damaged him. Now it is his turn. As much as it sucks to accept that, at least you aren't being blinded by the daggers coming at you. He was.


Iamtrash posted 8/13/2019 18:41 PM

We are safe. Out of our home. Away from him.

I did go on his thread. Today we both game permission to look at each otherís post. I know posting on it was wrong, but I was so infuriated by him acting like he did nothing wrong. Told them I beat him.

Today he sent me 80+ rage messages while I was at work. An additional 40 while I was at IC. He told me to leave. Not come home. Threatened me. Told me I should die. I told him I was coming home and that Iíd stay away from him. I went home, he remained in the living room and I went to my sonís room. Shut the door. He kept texting me. I didnít respond. He came into my sonís room to start this. Demanding I leave. I refused. He started yelling and screaming about details of the affair to our 6 year old. I told him to stop. My son was crying. I walked into my room. He followed. Kept up the same things. Telling me to leave. Got in my face.

I got my phone to call his mom. He was still saying he ought to hurt me throughout this. ďIf he was less of a man, he would.Ē He shoved me on the bed. Put his arms around me. He was trying to pull my phone out of my hand. I retaliated. My son was screaming and crying, ďdonít kill my mom.Ē Again. Heís 6. And autistic. Continued telling me to leave. Getting in my face. Telling me he was going to throw me out by my hair. He grabbed me and tried to force me out. Older son still hysterical. He finally walked out. I called his mom. She told me to leave with the boys. He wouldnít allow me to take them. Or give me my phone.

After a little more back and forth arguing (he wouldnít allow me to take the kids), he finally responded to his mom calling him. After she talked to him, he agreed that I could leave with the kids. He told me I couldnít come back. I told him we would return later. My kids donít deserve to be displaced. He followed me around. Continued screaming. Kicked a toy at me. Actually kicked me twice. Hit me. I took my boys and left.

Let the men on the forum believe what they want. Let them defend my BH. I donít actually care what anyone thinks. My kids are safe. I am safe.

I had an affair. I ruined his life. I still do not deserve to be told to die. Told to kill myself. Told that if I come home, he will create a crime scene. That he should murder me. (By the way, this is all in written form. Let him keep disputing it.) I donít deserve to be hit or kicked. I donít deserve to hear my son screaming that he doesnít want me to get killed.

So keep defending his actions. I donít care. My children are safe. We are protected by people that care about us and wonít allow us to be harmed.

I also noticed that he didnít even post half of what happened. Maybe he was in such a rage that he truly doesnít remember, but he conveniently forgot the parts where He continued to put his hands and feet on me.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 6:44 PM, August 13th (Tuesday)]

nightmare01 posted 8/13/2019 18:43 PM

Just to add a different perspective.

I very much agree, any and all abuse is wrong, but would like to point out that an affair is abuse. Physical, subjecting your BS to STD's and possible violence from the AP or their spouse. Psychological, controlling our actions through lying, as well as all the mind f**kery that goes with things not adding up to us, spreading lies about us to others to justify the affair, and also subjecting us to ridicule by AP, their friends, and others in the know, as well as using marital assets to fund the affair, AND the utter destruction of our self image once the affair is discovered. THEN afterward, gaslighting, hiding truths, protecting the AP with even more lies, and blaming us for your decision to cheat.

Again though, abusing an abuser is never justified.

Also, physical violence is not limited to the BS. My WW threw plates and broke quite a few of my items that I cherished.

Iamtrash posted 8/13/2019 18:47 PM

Please stop with the marital assets. He also never bothered to defend this, Iím not with him for money. I am the one with benefits. The one keeping all of us insured. The one with retirement. My children are clothed by me. I pay for their activities and school fees. I cover a ton for my family. We split bills, but I do the extras too. We have separate accounts and my spending has never impacted my family. I work hard for the extras we have. He doesnít pay for the extras.

Carissima posted 8/13/2019 18:53 PM

You are alleging violence against him, he is also doing the same against you.

You say he kicked you, he says you bit him. My earlier point was that with the best will in the world we have no way of knowing the truth.

I am glad one of you removed yourself from the situation and that the kids are safe.

foreverlabeled posted 8/13/2019 19:02 PM

Do you honestly feel like you are in danger? In your heart of hearts do you feel like he is he capable of acting out in violence? Has he before? Do you FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE?

I know this pain being a madhatter, though my pain stems from the lying not necessarily the cheating.. there were times when I ranged so hard I didn't know I had it me. The rage was controlled yet uninhibited, and I said things on purpose-ish just to try and get him to feel something close to the hurt I felt. No it wasn't okay but in the moment released the painful energy.

On the flip side (before my rageful time) my BH expressed himself much the same as your BH in early days/months and more extreme than I ever did. I never expected him to cope well with this kind of trauma and I set my boundaries low. Why? I knew I wasn't in danger I knew it came from a very painful place I knew that his world was upside down I knew he didn't know how to handle his extreme pain I knew it was an outlet I knew it would get better in time. I literally could go on with the empathy and compassion for his pain.

Like others said it is entirely up to you what you will except. You don't have to see him through this part especially if you are in danger. You don't have to do anything you don't want to.

I'll admit the anger stage was haaaaaaard. Tested me every turn. I actually reminded myself of something that is so incredibly silly to me now during that time. I would always bring to mind my reaction when someone would do me shitty. Like cut me off while driving/ride my ass or get in my personal space in line at the grocery, I deal with customer service sometimes.. doesn't matter what it was if it pissed me off I was so quick to call them a dickbag or asshole and get myself work up. So I would imagine just how fucking pissed and worked up my H is and try to understand. I don't know how far out from dday you are but if you knew, the anger stage can hit around 4-6 months out. The first phase is THE hardest most challenging. Not pretty at all.

I've only wished death one person in my life and frankly I wouldn't be upset if they dropped dead tonight (sorry not sorry). That comes from a deep pain within, tragic pain, if I had to live with that person well, I'm not sure I wouldn't express that feeling right or wrong. Anger is an expression of pain, try to remember that. Not everyone knows how to properly express and handle traumatic pain. No one is prepared for it. So it comes out in the worst way especially infidelity related. Its been described before worse than losing a child (from those who actually lost a child)! Let that sink in...

BUT big BUT, again if you feel your life and physical well being is in jeopardy PLEASE find a safe place to go. You CAN handle the emotional side, because if you take what he says form a place of his own experience of trauma and emotional abuse lashing out, you'll understand it isn't exactly super personal.

I think I'm a little different when it comes to this kind of expression of pain, most find it intolerable. So take my advise as it is, my opinion of deep compassion for pain.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 7:02 PM, August 13th (Tuesday)]

Iamtrash posted 8/13/2019 19:08 PM

We have lost a child. Before our first son. This is worse, by far.

Iíve never been truly scared of him. Maybe not liked yelling. Didnít like being poked. This was different. I did have fear. He took my way to get help. He did this in front of our boys. As out 6 year old screamed and cried. He kept it up after his mom talked him into letting us leave and giving me my phone. Heís still lying about the extent of what he did. About the threats to harm me before I even got home.

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