SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

@The1stwife

I get it. The real question becomes, is my wife fighting for me? No, she's really not. She appears to be fighting to hang on. I don’t actually understand her motivations.

I think she’s both scared to leave me, and scared to stay with me.

I’ve said that I will give reconciliation and marriage counseling until the end of this year, then I’ll re-evaluate where we’re at.

She’s told me, "I don’t think either of us will need to wait until the end of the year before we know if we can save the marriage." I don’t know what that means but it sounds like she may be a lot closer to making some decisions than I am, despite the fact that her answer to just about any question I ask her is "I don’t know."

I’m prepared for her to say she wants a divorce. If that’s what she wants, I’ll stop fighting.

So many important insights in this thread, and I'm stuck on the conversation about resentment from a few posts back.

My STBXWH unleashed a litany of resentments on me after DD2, including resentments that were laughably ludicrous. Turns out in his mind, everything I'd done for the past 24 years - including stupid stuff like buying this type of cereal instead of that, or making our bed this way instead of that way - were all examples of how I was uncaring, unloving, unappreciative, and unable to see him (don't get me started on "seeing him"). And he suddenly resented every thing I'd done during the entire marriage.

Even more mind boggling was the fact that so many of things he resented were things that he, too, had done at some point. When I pointed that out to him, he explained that he had a perfectly logical and reasonable rationale. Talk about double standards! So, when I put a cute picture of our kids on my phone as the lock screen, it demonstrates how little I care about him and how he means nothing to me. And he resents me for it. But when he puts a cute picture of the kids on his phone, it's because he's an adoring father and I should be more appreciative of what a great parent he is. That sort of thing. Times a million.

Anyway, I think the comments in this thread about self reflection and trying to learn and create self growth from painful experiences are terrific. I wonder, however, whether in some cases we are up against spouses or partners with such a strong negativity bias that there is no hope for us in avoiding their resentment. When dealing with a narcissist, for example, I don't think there is much you can do to get past the fact that narcissists often focus disproportionately on negative aspects of situations and people, as a way of maintaining their inflated self-image. And narcissists' inability to empathize makes it difficult to see situations from another person's perspective, leading them to interpret actions as inherently negative or critical towards them.

I'm working on all sorts of reflection and self-growth in IC while I end my marriage, and there is plenty of opportunity for me to learn and change. But the resentments? I'm not sure I ever stood a chance, even if I'd been the perfect wife, given my WH's narcissistic traits and intensely negative bias in all things. We can control only our own actions, but sometimes even when we do that, it's not enough.

4C, not sure if this describes your situation or whether your wife has always been someone who leans into the negative, but wanted to throw it out there.

She’s told me, "I don’t think either of us will need to wait until the end of the year before we know if we can save the marriage."

There’s a more than an even chance she’s been done for a while, but doesn’t want to be the "bad guy" in front of others by initiating divorce. Even with adultery, she might be thinking she can tell others "We simply were not compatible and while I made a small mistake, he’s the one that pulled the plug".

I could be wrong of course.

I have felt that way for a long time.

But tonight, in this moment, I feel about 80% sure that’s what’s happening.

Every interaction with her where she’s not telling me stories about her work feel forced. She really can’t hold a conversation with me beyond the 45 minute nightly recap of who said what at her job.

My existence annoys the piss out of her.

We have marriage counseling tomorrow night. It’s going to suuuuck. Why the fuck doesn’t she just tell me it’s over? I’m trying the best I can and it never makes a difference. It’s been five months and it still feels like day one.

We have marriage counseling tomorrow night. It’s going to suuuuck. Why the fuck doesn’t she just tell me it’s over? I’m trying the best I can and it never makes a difference. It’s been five months and it still feels like day one.

You’re missing a bigger question: Why are YOU willing to stay married to an adulteress WHO FEELS THIS WAYS ABOUT YOU ?? She’s a coward, and a proven unfaithful one at that. I know this truth about her absolutely sucks but man, from the gallery here, this woman hasn’t loved you for a LONG time. She’s just too damn a coward to tell you the truth.

Please raise your standards. Nobody deserves a spouse like this.

Why the fuck doesn’t she just tell me it’s over?

Rephrase this to "Why the fuck don't I tell her it is over?"

So, why aren't you telling her it is over?

I’m trying the best I can and it never makes a difference.

Problem her is that only one party is trying their best... and in case you did not get it, it is not your WW.

Problem here is that only one party is trying their best... and in case you did not get it, it is not your WW.

I don't know that she's not doing her best. What if that's the best she can do right now, and she just needs time with her IC before she can be what I need her to be?

As I look back on our marriage, I think my escapism was enabled by her people pleasing and her lack of vulnerability and her want to stonewall the fuck out of everything that may have led to feeling vulnerable. In turn, her people pleasing enabled my escapism. It was a cycle of coping mechanisms that eventually turned in on itself.

Now that my escapism has vanished (I haven't played a video game in 5 months), and she's no longer people pleasing, she's faced with being vulnerable and she can't do it (at least not consistently). But it also shines a light on the fact that if she's not people pleasing, she has to understand herself, her own wants and needs, and so far, I haven't been able to fulfill whatever it is she wants and needs (I don't think she actually knows).

And here we are, in limbo. I would almost wish that she told me the affair was actually a PA and still going on, because at least that would give me a clear vision forward. But instead, I have night after night of her coming home and us just not connecting. We seem to get further apart from one another with each day. I see her trying, but it feels contrived and forced knowing how she feels about our marriage in the past, how she interacts with me in the present, and how she's unable to see the marriage in the future.

I keep telling her I have no interest in her being the bad guy, and whatever the truth is about how she feels I just want her to be happy. I'm willing to work the divorce out so she can go do that if that's what she wants. Not sure what else I can do. I don't want a divorce; I want her to love me again.

[This message edited by 4characters at 4:35 PM, Wednesday, March 12th]

This is going to wander all over the place. Why is your wife so resentful of a hobby? My husband‘s hobby has consumed him for years because it’s golf and he plays it all day on his days off. I don’t like golf, but I like my husband, so I don’t care if he plays golf all day. I’m a fully functioning adult who can look after myself and enjoy my own company or the company of others on the days he’s playing golf. On top of that he read books and magazines and watch his videos about of all things, golf.
Your wife has way too much baggage and you are the recipient of it. Anytime she tries to pull any of it out she throws it on you. Unless you are not telling us the truth, it does not sound like you are a harmful or uncaring spouse. You are a human being just getting along like the rest of us. What you have is a wife who is a cheater. My husband was one while traveling, but I never got that resentment crap that you are dealing with. So, let go. Just let go. You can’t change her and you can’t fix her and if she’s not willing to do something to fix the situation, you are never going to get out of infidelity. That is your reality. Your hobby is not the problem. Your wife’s cheating is one. The other is the crap she has brought along in her life. Please stop trying to fix something that you can’t fix. It’s the old head against the brick wall. This is your one life. It should be better than this.

I know it's hard through this new lens that you are viewing the marriage, but when would you say was the last time your wife seemed *content* in the marriage?

Just prior to returning to the workforce or longer?

We've been married for almost 23 years. During that time, there were common themes of "my love language is acts of love" that I never seemed to be able to do correctly.

Looking back, there were cracks in the dam probably 5 years ago, but even now they don't seem like things that should have risen to the point where we are now. They seemed like common issues that married couples have (communication mostly), and that we could've resolved if that really was the only underlining problem.

I started to see real structural issues about 3 years ago as she entered the workforce full-time, our oldest kids graduated high school, and we moved into a new home (that "wasn't her dream home", but was the best practical choice we could make at the time). Oh yeah, and as she got into her 40's.

About a year after we moved, there was an escalation of issues. She was definitely spending more time at work, less time at home, and she was noticeably less engaged with the kids. Now she barely talks to any of the kids (partially because 3 of the 4 are young adults that don't go out of their way to talk to either of us). She LOVES the kids, there's no doubt about that. But she's not very engaged, and honestly because I work from home, I'm more engaged than she is (which is a very low bar). Our kids are suffering from all of this, we're just not in a place where we can juggle much more than we currently are. It's something we're both fighting through, trying to spend time with them on scheduled events, trying to cook large dinners where we get 30 minutes with them at the table with us. But it's really difficult, and I think it's a direct result of my wife going back to work, and me being a less-than-optimal Dad.

Anyway, from a timing perspective, once she started working at her current job, she quickly started talking about the male clients (I barely EVER hear anything about the female clients. I mean it's like male vs female client dominated work conversations at about 20 to 1.) And once that started up, I began to wonder what the hell was going on, but didn't have any proof, and honestly, I just never thought she would do what she did.

About 6 months prior to DD, I began to feel like I was married to another person entirely. She would just say and do weird stuff. She began to actually forget to pick kids up or drive them places. She was checked out of everything. If it wasn't work, it really almost stopped existing for her (at least in the ways that we expected). I don't know how the kids felt about it at the time, I think because she was such a great mom over the years they just gave her a pass on all of it, but I saw it in real time and it was alarming.

When I talk to her about the kids, she knows that we have issues there. But if I say anything like "You're not engaged with them the way you used to be." she will eat my soul. It's a third rail conversation. She just simply doesn't accept the premises that she's not doing a good job with the kids (the way she used to) while simultaneously recognizing that WE should be doing better. She's not wrong, WE should be doing better. But she's really not engaged. As much as I'm neglected as a partner, it's worse for our kids.

[This message edited by 4characters at 6:52 PM, Wednesday, March 12th]

Based on the history of your marriage that you recapped, particularly in your last post, I think it’s pretty obvious why your wife hasn’t filed for divorce: she’s afraid of having to manage a household on her own as a single parent.

I don’t know if you’re putting yourself down as a parent unfairly, but at the very least, you’re picking up the slack where she’s dropping the ball. You’re an extra set of hands and an extra income.

But if you were to get divorced, there would be 2 households and she would 100% be responsible for running her own without you there.

And on top of all that, she’s put her employment in a risky position by screwing around with one of the convicted felons there. At least if she’s still married to you when her career blows up, she’ll have your income to fall back on.

So really give some thought has to whether you want to a marriage or a babysitter/room mate arrangement… because the latter is all you can expect from her at this point.

@bluerthanblue

You may not be wrong. That’s one way to look at it.

She can’t afford the house on her own. And we just spoke seriously about what divorce would look like for the first time tonight.

I told her I thought I would go live with my brother, and keep paying the bills for the house, while she continued to pay the mortgage. This would allow her to stay with the kids. The cats would stay at the house because the kids can take care of them. I would be about an hour away. I said I would continue to pay until all the kids were out of the house, or until they were all over the age of 25. (That’s 10 years). We would then sell the house and spilt the profits. Said I would put it in writing.

She’d be stupid not to divorce me with a deal like that.

MC was actually really good and productive tonight. First time for everything.

[This message edited by 4characters at 4:49 AM, Thursday, March 13th]

I don't know that she's not doing her best. What if that's the best she can do right now, and she just needs time with her IC before she can be what I need her to be?

As I look back on our marriage, I think my escapism was enabled by her people pleasing and her lack of vulnerability and her want to stonewall the fuck out of everything that may have led to feeling vulnerable. In turn, her people pleasing enabled my escapism. It was a cycle of coping mechanisms that eventually turned in on itself.

Now that my escapism has vanished (I haven't played a video game in 5 months), and she's no longer people pleasing, she's faced with being vulnerable and she can't do it (at least not consistently). But it also shines a light on the fact that if she's not people pleasing, she has to understand herself, her own wants and needs, and so far, I haven't been able to fulfill whatever it is she wants and needs (I don't think she actually knows).

Summary: I am making up excuses for my WW.

I would almost wish that she told me the affair was actually a PA and still going on,

What makes you think it is not a PA? In your first post, you had already mentioned that your WW gets home later than her usual time (but before 8pm). What makes you think that your WW and her AP did the deed within that time?

I want her to love me again.

This is something that you cannot control, and you are doing the Pick-Me dance and smoking Hopium at the same time.

You are keeping yourself in limbo, as you are the one chasing after your WW. There is a large imbalance in your M at the moment, where your WW is holding onto all the power/control. It would be good to discuss with an IC on your guilt issues (about your game playing), and also discuss on how to regain your self-respect. The guilt is making you overcompensate, allowing way more leeway for your WW. Hoping that you can 'nice' her back to you (FYI, this has never worked to regain balance in a relationship).

RR

When I talk to her about the kids, she knows that we have issues there. But if I say anything like "You're not engaged with them the way you used to be." she will eat my soul. It's a third rail conversation.

Remind me: are you in IC? I see all kinds of signs of codependency in you. You’re governed by fear. I fully agree with Rocket. You think you are the ONE exception to the universal rule that smoking hopium and dancing the pick-me ever harder will actually work in your case. It NEVER does. In fact, most women are repulsed by the weakness that demonstrates.

You have every right to choose to learn the hard way. I’ll leave you to it.

@gr8ful

I’m repulsed by people that only make good partners when you have to force them through draconian measures.

I probably do have some codependency issues. But it’s hard for me to see that when I know that I’m 100% emotionally prepared for the marriage to end.

I have to say, gr8ful. You seem rather sure of yourself and quick to point your finger at me. In several of these threads you’ve called me weak. You also appear prone to generalizations about "most women ".

It doesn’t mean you’re wrong, but maybe the world doesn’t work precisely as you think it does? If you’re on this forum I assume you also have experience with infidelity. Is a person weak for having it happen in the first place, or does it take multiple attempts? If someone uses the 180 but they still receive more betrayal, does that mean they’re weak? It seems to me that "strength" may sometimes be the enemy of integrity and honor.

Even if it works out for me (which it doesn’t look good at all right now), I’m doing it my way for a reason. It gives me the best chance for the relationship I want. It’s not all about "saving" the marriage at any cost.

[This message edited by 4characters at 5:22 PM, Thursday, March 13th]

Glad to hear you had a productive conversation with WW about what a divorce would look like. As generous as your offer is, you might want to hold off on making commitments until you have a lawyer to advise you.

I’m in the middle of D, and there were a number of things that I thought were fair and common sense…until my attorney gave me very good reasons for why they might not be. Or were at least things that should be negotiated as part of a settlement.

I’m glad to read your post about having a good counseling session. I hope it continues.

I agree that your offer for the house payments in the D is more than generous. And yes the STBX would be a fool not to take it.

But just remember she may be looking for "more" than your initial offer and reject your offer thinking she will do better with another offer from you.

I hope it doesn’t come to that.

Good points on the divorce offer.

I’m not the worst negotiator in the world, normally. But I don’t think about divorce in the way you’re supposed to. I understand that it’s a legal financial construct, and once you’re divorcing you’re no longer on the same team, so to speak.

But we have four kids together. So if we end up getting a divorce, I have to think about what is best for them too. And they all need a place to live. They also need their mother.

In addition, I took that til death do us part shit seriously. And regardless of the affair, I’m obligated to take care of my wife for better or for worse. Divorce qualifies as worse.

I make about 3 times what my wife makes. But just like she couldn’t have raised our four kids the way she did without my financial contributions, I couldn’t have been as successful in my career without her hard work teaching and taking care of the kids.

My wife my not value the partnership and see that as teamwork. But I always did. We’ll see what happens. Maybe there will be a miracle ending to all this. Or maybe I’ll just be supporting a family of five that I’m no longer married into.

Or maybe I’ll just be supporting a family of five that I’m no longer married into.

I hope you don’t mean that. You are just as important in those kids’ lives as their mother. Arguably more important as they transition into adults.

In addition, I took that til death do us part shit seriously. And regardless of the affair, I’m obligated to take care of my wife for better or for worse. Divorce qualifies as worse.

I also vehemently disagree with this. She broke the "forsaking all others" clause, and as such the contract is null and void. The better or worse does not apply within betrayal, in my very strong opinion on the matter.

I have to say, gr8ful. You seem rather sure of yourself and quick to point your finger at me. In several of these threads you’ve called me weak.

Where I have confidence is where I myself have had to learn the hard way. I grant you, it’s difficult for me to watch others make the same mistakes as me, knowing what I know now. I’m not judging you. I haven’t called you "weak". I’m trying to communicate that the choices you’ve made *could* be interpreted as, let’s just say, not coming from a position of strength. It’s my personal opinion that "many" women are not attracted to men who make decisions out of a place of fear, or otherwise don’t stand up for themselves. Maybe it’s just me.

I’ll now bow out of your thread.