SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi everyone. I've been going through my writings from the hell I've been through and decided to post some of it. I'm all over the place. History: I decided to reconcile. I'm not looking for much, just want to be in a safe place to write and post some thoughts.

Four years have passed. Married for 33 now. Great marriage. He's devastated and I am too. Oddly, my wanting to leave him because of this devastates him as much as his devastation of having ruined us does me. Of course this leaves me in the position of feeling like I'm the one ending it, ruining what we both said was perfect, when it's him who killed our marriage. How f*cked up is that? I resent him for it. He ended us, not me.

I so can relate to everyone here, I've been reading for a long time. Thank you everyone for being my invisible helpers.

Disclosure: the below didn't happen. Months of intimate emails and work meetings between them did. I guess I got lucky. Not. The only thing that kept them from going further and getting physical was that I sniffed it out. Hundreds of emails. Daily meetings at the college. Daily. And finally, a plan to get together outside of work - at a cafe - mentor and needy student. She was endlessly on the verge of failure and calamity, but still adoring.

He mid age, she a not so young student. Pretty. Me - well, you get the picture. Savior complex - she the victim. She a cluster B personality type, narcissist- psychopath. She used NLP, trance, really sick gross psychological manipulation. It's all so absurd but it isn't. We've been to psychologists, specialists, I showed them the emails she wrote, the twisted language, it was sick. Even they recoiled. The word evil came up repeatedly from them. She did and said and implied some really f*cked up stuff. They said he was targeted. Stay away, let it go. Dangerous. They've seen it before.

He's been in therapy for PTSD. As have I. What that translates into is that I went through betrayal trauma while having to make space for his being manipulated into f*cking me over. Us. And for whatever it's worth, this really is outside his behavior. So many people here have said that about their cheating spouses who cheat anyway, I know it's a cliche. He is a good person. He is ethical. This doesn't make sense, except when it happens, I know.

Now I'm in a position where I'm the selfish s*it for not getting it.

I went through total, real trauma. PTSD. The works.

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I initially meant to post just the paragraphs below but added so much above before making this post, I feel like the below has lost the point I was trying to make. I'm posting it anyway.

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Here's the meeting at the cafe that I spoiled, what I imagined. I read all the emails which preceded this date I ruined> The tone is spot on:

And as she sits in her chair, and settles, your knees brush for a quick moment, and you both look up at one another, your eyes locking in sudden surprise at the unexpected reflexive riveting jolt of electricity flashing through your bodies. She holds the glance, and you look down, surprised by you indiscretion and by how welcome it feels. Well, never mind, file it away in that box of small, medium, and bigger lost recollections of indiscretions and accidental lies, filed under lets not stop lets stop soon. After her crepe is eaten, after some words about future plans, future wants, future hopes and desires, small and big ambitions, while playing with the remaining bits of now forgotten food, her knee touches yours again, only slower this time. It presses lightly, warmly. You don’t look up. It’s not really a surprise this time, not really, not to either of you. You each soak in the moment in silence, a first. Inside, the slow wave of warmth moves through your bodies, as you coddle it in silence. An imperceptible tug pulls outward from your lips, your forehead tightens, her eyes half closed as she glances at your mouth. She holds the glance as you let her see your lips distending out and up, ever so slightly. It will be a nice email exchange tonight. Soft, brief, just a flick, perhaps a caress. The spell breaks, and synchronized, flushed, silent and sated, you both stand up to leave. You pick up the bill.

Her treat next time she says, and you know she will make good. She is so willing. She is so thoughtful.

A little nauseous as you walk through the door home, you kiss your wife, and look through her. A light casual air of conviviality all about you, and your wife is glad to see you feeling good. Is this me you ask? What is happening? And as you recall the electricity, you feel the warmth, you cup your knee. You hear your wife busy with something not you. And you’d better check your email, there might be something important.

Very poignant post. You write so eloquently...it was like I was watching the exchange.

Please...write another one. But this time...use the actions your H portrays now. Now that he sees her for who she REALLY is...a SELFISH person who USED him to get what she wanted.

Please let us know what he sees when he comes home to his loving...faithful wife.

That first writing you did...it was fiction...it may have been what happened...but it didn't.

The next scenario you write may be fiction too...EXCEPT for the REAL feelings your H has NOW. NOW is what COUNTS!!!

He could have said no at any time. He could have come to you and asked for help. He could have gone to adminstration. There were other decisions he could have made that didn't break your marriage vows.

FWIW, I filed for D the week before our 34th anniversary. You may want to look up sink cost fallacy.

Want2BHappyAgain,

He says and has said many many times that the reason he likes to be in the world is because of me. That is NOW, like you say. I believe him. It was true for me too. But so much was shattered for me ... I can't get the feeling back. Not fully, like before. Most of the time I'm there mostly. But the innocence, the absolute of what we meant to each other before, when there was never any question, it will never be like that again. I fear it won't. And then I have moments where I feel like a person who lost everything that mattered. Someone who lost their foundation.

So what does that even mean? Rebuild? Rebuild a belief system? That can't even be done. We started building this in our 20's.

I'm an artist, so a metaphor ... like a painting that's lost it's color. Still there but washed out and faded. Like a ghost of what it was. It takes work now to remember who I was and who we were. He says to fight for it. And he has. He really has. I would have walked away but for him. So ironic. Sometimes, I look at him, and study him, and wonder. I used to trust him absolutely. But I know he's right, and I do believe he's right, to fight for it.

Thanks for what you said about the writing. I've thought about writing a book, except that it would probably be retraumatizing for me and my husband.

On the other hand it might be cathartic. Not sure my husband could survive it really, so, no for now. He is still experiencing physical trauma symptoms. I should move on, we should.

Thank you for replying. I really appreciate it.

leafields,

I said the same hundereds of times. Why didn't you say no? He says he was just trying to help a needy student. And it was like that -- I read ALL the correspondence and know the timing of everything (written). I saw him sliding down the slippery slope. All he saw -- or wanted to -- was the benefit of being a savior. And the flattery.

To be fair, teachers and professors are inspirations and sometimes saviors to students, role models. He's mentored hundereds of students and watched them thrive and move on to good schools or good jobs. It's a source of pride, the best part of the job. Especially for a committed person like him. This time he got tangled with something extra. And he slid down in the mud. By the time he realized the significance and ramifications of it, well, here I am -- and am not.

Ironically, he did go to administration early on for advice. She needed extra time and guidance, had documentation for it, and asked for a meeting once a week. He felt something wasn't right so he asked for advice from the social counseling person (something like that). He had a bad feeling about her but felt he could handle it. He's been teaching for a long time. Soon enough she was dropping by every day asking for help, writing multiple emails daily, and next thing he was trying to save her.

Of course, later we discovered the stories she told for sympathy were fabrications. Still, the damage was done. He and she had developed an intimacy I was left out of. Simply dismissed. Forgottten.

leafields,

sink cost fallacy - yes. He became more and more invested. He knew I wouldn't be on board.

He didn't come to me for help. He hid it from me. The more he slid, the more he hid. I didn't even know he went to the administrator for advice early on. I knew nothing. I was left out from all of it. He always shared everything with me before. We both did.

Our daughter was very ill at the time, very ill. She had came home from college to recover 2 years before and we didn't know if she could recover. She had Lyme encephalitis and was very ill. Recovery from encephalitis is long and slow. The student became a surrogate. She knew about our daughter and her stories were tailored to elicit paternal emotional responses from him. Stories we found out were fabrications. That's how the emotional connection between them started. He let her in and became desperate to help her. He feels like a total idiot. He was profoundly manipulated as he manipulated me. So toxic.

Hi Elica, I work as an assistant for a very charismatic prof, a chair in the humanities. He's funny, kind-hearted, empathetic, and one of the most popular teachers on the roster. Married to a lovely woman who works in university admin, two difficult teenage boys, and I can imagine with their busy schedules they rarely get a moment to themselves.

It's hard to imagine him ever going down the path your husband took, but seeing the young women coming in for his office hours after class makes me marvel at his self-control.

I totally understand your black-and-white analogy. It took about three years after leaving my ex for the colour to bleed back into my world. There were times I despaired that it would ever happen, and had I stayed with him I think it may not have. However, my situation was extreme compared to yours. My ex was a very sick puppy who deceived me for 20 of our 22 years. He is a textbook sex addict, and yours is apparently not.

All that said, it's still a huge mindfuck and it takes buckets of time and self-care to manage your way back to something resembling sanity again. It's a lot of work. Your world will never be the same, but perhaps you can forge something you can both live with. And perhaps not.

Like you, one of my biggest concerns was my abuser's fragility. He had no close friends despite being very gregarious and extroverted, and was utterly terrified of being alone. I eventually found my bitch boots and kicked him out anyway, because I needed things to now be ALL ABOUT ME. I didn't have any children to drag into the mess, so my situation was different from yours, but if you're still worrying about his fragility four years later, you may want to switch your focus and start making it about what YOU need out of the next chapter.

I turn 70 this year, and making that decision at 55 was one of the most excruciating, but also one of the best, decisions I've ever had to make. I have zero regrets that he is no longer part of the fabric of my world. I went on a journey to find that woman I used to be, and she's pretty fucking awesome!

Just a little perspective from my corner, take what you need and leave the rest as we say around here. I'm so sorry you're dealing with all this. Keep posting here. You'll get there.

FF

[This message edited by FaithFool at 5:45 PM, Sunday, March 12th]

My story is somewhat similar- husband was a popular and caring professor who had a 3 year affair with a former (adult) student. He was her KISA and she had emotional problems but was also very attractive, and flattered him. When he first revealed it to me (because her husband had found out) his story was similar- he got in too deep trying to be mentor and then couldn’t get out because she was unstable and he feared exposure. He then went to therapy for anxiety and was a victim. It made my recovery harder because I was used to protecting him- we were a team. I discovered over time that he had had multiple inappropriate relationships with students and faculty- none were at the level of his 3-year affair, but definitely inappropriate amounts of hidden meetings and communications. The truth was he liked the attention- it was exciting.

I guess you got lucky in that he got the crazy student first- but he really needs to dig into what he was getting from this relationship that caused him to drop his professional boundaries and what he will change to be safe in the future. If his narrative is that this situation was caused by the crazy student and he is a victim that, to me, is a red flag.

FF,

The "prof" you describe sounds like my husband. Charismatic, comitted to his students, has helped so many of them be better. He's always been available t them, pushed them forward, but unavailable to any of them in a way which crossed inappropriate lines. He's very comitted to me, or was, but now my view of everything has changed, shifted.

I don't think he ever deceived me before. We always knew what the other was doing, and stayed in touch throughout the day. We both loved that about our life.

This student was different, and the circumstances were different than ever before in our lives. Our daughter was so unwell, life was really hard. We didn't know if she would recover and neither did the doctors. In comes this student, full of promise but troubled, failures in her past, starting over, misunderstood, abandoned, all bright and shiny and wanting to set her life on track. He told me about her at the beginning of the semester, and given how our daughter fell through the cracks in the medical system, I actually encouraged him to do what he could to help her, like we would want a mentor to do for our daughter.

She started out strong, promising, but as the semester went on cracks started to appear, crises, one after another. Small at first, but he helped her, and off she went each time ever so grateful. But it never stopped, her crises became disasters and he became enbroilled in not just helping, but rescuing her. She became so dependent on him, and he never drew the line, drew the boundaries, until their relationship became something outside our marriage that ran parallel to it. I knew nothing about it.

I got wind of it and the proverbial s hit the fan.

I read all their emails and saw how he slipped down. He tried to pull back several times, but then came the flattery, the I can't do this without you and will fail again. Emotional threats. He felt simultaneously buoyed and threatened, as he was lapping up the praise and valor and self importance. It was disgusting to read it and see it. I was physically revolted by the betrayal and at the inanity of it all and by his willingness to keep going. And by his blindness to someone who was so obviously unwell and dangerous.

He was spinning at this point. He couldn't believe his own behavior. Couldn't understand how he got there. He kept saying all he wanted to do was help. Yes ... as he lied to me.

Then came his shame. And his fragility. And therapy ... and endless deviations and distractions from the bare, ugly fact that he killed our life and destroyed our trust.

I don't think there were others although I know many women were interested. He's easy on the eyes, but he was so completely committed to me and our family. Always available, always transparent.

I don't believe anything like this will happen again - but hey, once does the job. I was ready to walk and he knows I meant it. He did the work in therapy, we read many books, the whole thing. It sucked. Slowly things started to improve, very slowly.

I'm just so sad about it. We lost so much and I don't think we'll ever get it back. We had something great, and he trashed it. For egostroking. It makes me so angry and sad. I felt like he threw us away, threw me away.

And, it would have gone on another semester if I hadn't found out. An ugly secret right there between us. He said he couldn't wait for her to leave, but couldn't abandon her. Great.

Babette,

"I guess you got lucky in that he got the crazy student first" ... Hahaha! You really mad em laugh! You're so right!

Wow. I think I could have written your post.

I don't think he had inappropriate relationships before though. I always knew where he was and he me, we were always in touch. And after this, I scoured his work and personal emails going way back.

But I did see this as a first, with possibly more to follow. He had crossed a threshold. But like you said, lucky me she was crazy.

And she really was, like stalker crazy. By the end she was making threats in her writing, all cloaked, creepy and twisty. After it all came out we were looking over our shoulder wherever we went. We saw psych specialists and showed them the emails, several advised us to close the chapter and count our blessings. Her student persona was like some sort of Victorian virgin, so respectful, always sitting up straight, so attentive, even meek. I did a lot of internet digging and found an alter social media page she had which was very off, very creepy, very dark and perverse. Like another person, only it was her. In retrospect we realized she targeted him. He really freaked out then.

That was awful enough, and so confusing as the crux of the problem was that he deceived me, and on top of it he didn't protect us.

"If his narrative is that this situation was caused by the crazy student and he is a victim that, to me, is a red flag. "

The thing is, she was crazy ... but he was willing. One therapist we saw actually said, "She was selling, but you were buying!" But he did the work afterward. We were in therapy together but he was in therapy alone for much longer. He did a lot of processing, work on boundaries, how he got there, why, how he missed and ignored the red flags.

I don't think this will happen again. But it did. And I'm still pissed about it. I don't know if I'll ever recover, and I'm angry about that too. Not sure what to do with these feelings.

Your story, Elica, is not unlike my W's. She took on a new client who manipulated her into an A by violating her boundaries again and again and again.

The thing is that my W was supposed to be the adult in the room. My W was supposed to stay professional, as was your H.

I was angry, grief-stricken, scared, ashamed ... you name it. I had to get through all of the feelings, not just one. From what you've written I see you're still angry. What about the other feelings?

I don't think this will happen again. But it did. And I'm still pissed about it. I don't know if I'll ever recover, and I'm angry about that too. Not sure what to do with these feelings.

I hear you. My husband and I have reconciled. He has worked to become the partner I thought he was and had been in the past. But now I know he is capable of this kind of betrayal and your H has shown you that too. I’m not sure that you can ever unknow that. I suspect that if he had managed to end the first relationship without you knowing that there would have been others. My husband said that his inhibitions decreased once he had crossed the line and there are lots of opportunities for an attractive caring professor.

Ultimately you have to decide if the relationship in the moment is worth the risk that it could end. I decided mine was because of the changes my H had made and our compatibility (and our kids). But I am also emotionally and financially ready to leave if I am wrong.

Sisoon,

I went through the feelings you mention, but when I get triggered, as has hapenned recently, it's mostly anger that resurfaces.

I'm not angry all the time, but something will happen and I can feel the wave building, my thoughts keep going back to that time, that wave peaks and then recedes. I'm able to recognize it coming now, but can't stop it. Is this PTSD? Still? There have been many times times when I think, I should say I feel certain, that I've recovered, that we have, and I'll never be submerged in all this again. But here I am.

Someone here once said being cheated on is like having to do the time for someone else's crime.

Babette,

If something like this happened again, I know I would walk out immediately.

It takes a certain amount of hardening to be able to think that, to feel that, and hey ... that little "gift" , well it pisses me off too! (That was an attempt to insert a little humor in here ...)

But that's the inevitable result of the circumstances. What other option is there? What is a person supposed to think, feel, after the life they had shifts in the most essential ways? There really aren't that many options.

So we find ways to protect ourselves. Going through something like that again would simply be unbearable.

Some people are capable of moving on better than others. Me, I think I'll be vigilant for a very long time. And that wasn't my choice either.

So what does that even mean? Rebuild? Rebuild a belief system? That can't even be done. We started building this in our 20's.

When I first read this I thought of "The Six Million Dollar Man" series. "We can rebuild him. We have the technology. We can make him better than he was." It was a cool show with a very handsome Lee Majors...although I liked him better as Heath in "The Big Valley"!!!

Now that I have aged myself...lol...I can unequivocally say that YES...rebuilding can be done! This time you aren't starting from where you were in your 20's. Together...y'all built a GOOD foundation...and you can start from there. We went to a seminar on TRUST once...and the hosts used the example of trust being like a house that was built on a solid foundation...but then was burned to the ground. Everything was lost...except for the foundation. They could then rebuild on that foundation...only...they could ADD or TAKE AWAY from what they learned after their "other" house was built. They didn't have to "make do" with certain elements that were already ingrained in their other house. They could use the BEST materials that weren't available before...to make it BETTER. Y'all have that same ability now.

Ohhh Dear Lady...you have seen the BEAUTY that happens when a washed out painting has been restored I bet! It is painstaking work...delicate work...DEDICATED work...but it CAN be done! It isn't easy to go ALL IN for R...especially when your heart has been shattered by the person you trusted it with. But the battle is half won by your H fighting FOR y'all. Imagine how AMAZING it could be if you JOINED him!!

I often likened my M to a tapestry. It was FULL of gorgeous colors...from our wedding day...to each of our children's births...and beyond. On and on we weaved a BEAUTIFUL tapestry of our M...and I LOVED it...was so PROUD of it...and displayed it prominently to remind myself of what a MASTERPIECE it was.

Then the A happened. The thread color for that incident was black. The longer I held on the A...not moving forward...the color stayed the same. How could I NOT let it go though??? It DESTROYED our M...I couldn't get it back. I was DEVASTATED. Like yours...my H FOUGHT for our M...EVERY DAY. But HE put us in this infidelity hell!!! The black thread in our otherwise beautiful tapestry was not pretty...it was destroying it!!

Then I looked closer at the tapestry. There were black threads woven throughout it. Times when our loved ones passed away. When we lost our jobs. Times of real struggle. YES...the vibrant colors were there...but so was the black. In fact...the black and other somewhat "dull" colors...helped to make the "vibrant" colors more colorful!

The tapestry of our M is still being woven. The black thread from my H's A will always be a part of it...as will all of the others. But it doesn't mean that the tapestry can't continue to be beautiful. WE fight for our PRECIOUS M...TOGETHER...EVERY DAY. It is truly WORTH IT!! I can't even express how wonderful it FEELS to be on the other side of infidelity!!! It is sort of like how none of us really knew how devastating infidelity IS...until we experienced it. It truly can't be described how GOOD it feels to be OUT of infidelity!!

I recently saw something about mosaics from centuries ago. These small BROKEN pieces were intricately put together to create some truly AWESOME works of art!! I smiled when I saw that too! Maybe I will start thinking about our M as that. It may have been gorgeous china that was SHATTERED. But we delicately...deliberately...dedicated our time to put the pieces back together to make a new gorgeous masterpiece!

I often write that it's all about perspective. It is our CHOICE in how we want to look at our future. One thing I know for sure is that you can't create a positive future with a negative mindset.

Write another story...PLEASE. I really really REALLY want to see it from you...with the perspective of your flawed but remorseful H FIGHTING for you...for your M. This time...it won't be fiction...it will be from your observation of what he IS doing!!!

Great metaphor, Want2b!

As to changing beliefs and belief systems, we do that all the time - or should - when new info comes in that casts doubt on the belief(s).

For example, I always thought As stemmed from at least one problem in a Marriage. It was only after d-day that I learned my W's A stemmed from her own internal problems.

Thanks sisoon!

As to changing beliefs and belief systems, we do that all the time - or should - when new info comes in that casts doubt on the belief(s).

Very true. My ignorant self USED to believe that if a woman cheated on her husband...the husband CAUSED her to do it. I was very much MISTAKEN in that belief!!!

To everyone who took the time to write back ...

As I reread the responses to me in this thread, I realized I didn't thank any of you.

I didn't know what to expect, but being heard and understood, and thinking about your experiences and advice has had more of an impact on me than I hoped. I feel relieved and not as alone. I feel like I made some progress out of this infidelity quagmire. I hate that place so much. I feel like I've been kidnapped and I keep paying and paying to be released but it's never enough and there doesn't seem to be an end to it.

But, on the bright side, I have made so much progress and I know I'm almost out. It's just that I get slung back at times, like a boomerang. That's what happened a few weeks ago and why I posted, hoping for some insight and support. Which you all gave me.

Thank you.

Want2BHappyAgain,

I'm so sorry I haven't been able to respond to your message sooner, especially as it's been a catalyst for much more thinking for me. I just couldn't find a few moments of quiet to sit down and focus. I think you got a very good sense of where I am in all this and really appreciate the things you said.

Yes, I watched the Six Million Dollar Man too! It's as though you knew it's an analogy I can relate to.

But the battle is half won by your H fighting FOR y'all. Imagine how AMAZING it could be if you JOINED him!!

As I said in my earlier post, he has fought really hard for us. I've always been the more independent one of the two of us, with an instinct to protect my boundaries and my family and people close to me. I am very loyal. Maybe to a fault? I don't know ... So his fighting for us has meant so much to me as proof of his remorse and comittment to me and to us. His actions (not only words, a very good thing I learned about on this forum!) and determination are why I didn't detach and walk away like I wanted to many times.

A quick story: I was raised to believe that there is nothing more deplorable than a person that betrays you. That if you are betrayed once, that person can never be trusted again. This was drilled into me by my parents who were both children in Europe during WWII. The saw terrible things happen, many of which were the result of neighbors, "friends", traitors, turning on each other, betraying each other. We kids were taught that people capable of betrayal even in small things, were capable of the same 'logic' when it came to the bigger things. It's a character flaw that is an innate part of their method of operating in the world. Understanding that about people meant safety. So in a practical sense, that meant eliminating those people from your life.

Hence, my first impulse was to walk away. No amount of explaining could change the reality of where he put us. But nothing in life is so simple, so black and white. We had had a really good marriage, very happy, supportive of each other, rarely quarreled, we both grew, respect each other. I didn't want it to end, so I stuck around to see where it would go, where we would land.

You are right about retracing the same steps over and over keeps us circling around in infidelity. At some point, and I'm there, I'm going to have to let go of my defenses (which served me well in the beginning of all this), let go of that belief system I was taught, at least with this, and move forward with him. Otherwise I'll never be out of infidelity, we won't, and we'll never get our life back. He hasn't forgiven himself (and I worry about that too but that's another topic) but he really has proven himself.

Then the A happened. The thread color for that incident was black. The longer I held on the A...not moving forward...the color stayed the same. How could I NOT let it go though??? It DESTROYED our M...I couldn't get it back. I was DEVASTATED. Like yours...my H FOUGHT for our M...EVERY DAY. But HE put us in this infidelity hell!!! The black thread in our otherwise beautiful tapestry was not pretty...it was destroying it!!

Yes, yes, and yes. All of the above for me too.

People here often talk about their life after infidelity like a house that burned down. For me it was more like an explosion where everything broke apart into pieces. The pieces finally settled and the house was reassembled, but there were fissures everywhere. Even though it looks like it did superficially, nothing quite fits anymore. Every time we make progress in our repairs, we encounter a new crack, a new barrier.
As so many of us BS know, it's utterly exhausting. But it has been worth it. The house is much like your mosaic analogy.

I can't even express how wonderful it FEELS to be on the other side of infidelity!!! It is sort of like how none of us really knew how devastating infidelity IS...until we experienced it. It truly can't be described how GOOD it feels to be OUT of infidelity!!

I'm there. I want out too. I know it's up to me at this point.

"Write another story...PLEASE. I really really REALLY want to see it from you...with the perspective of your flawed but remorseful H FIGHTING for you...for your M. This time...it won't be fiction...it will be from your observation of what he IS doing!!! "

Haha! Good idea. I will.

Again, thank you for your message. It's so nice to see light in this forum, to know people do make it into a good healthy place again.

sisoon,

Your story, Elica, is not unlike my W's. She took on a new client who manipulated her into an A by violating her boundaries again and again and again.

The thing is that my W was supposed to be the adult in the room. My W was supposed to stay professional, as was your H.

I saw the same happening when I read through their emails. The boundary violations were small steps at first. But as time when by, the student's problems grew and her minor issues went from small crises to serious ones.

My husband kept going - he who always goes the extra mile for his students - but the connection became emotional with this one. She was very needy, he was happy to give. Pretty soon they were crossing boundaries hand in hand. And that's how they lived in their hideous little bubble, for a while. I could get ugly here ... so I'll stop writing now!

[This message edited by Elica at 10:17 PM, Thursday, March 30th]