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Today on the phone with my BH I gaslit him. This past week he had mentioned teaching our son to cook hamburgers. During our phone call today I said that I could make burgers for dinner. He reminded me that our son had asked him teach him how to make them. He was upset that I had forgotten that he had told me that our son wanted him to teach him. I responded by gaslighting him. I back pedaled and said that I had stated that my husband could make them with our son. That is not what I had said. While my husband was initially hurt that I didn't remember what he had told me last week, now he was angry that I was gaslighting him. He called me out on gaslighting him. I acknowledged that he was right and that I had lied. I then had a whole list of reasons why. I need to be accountable for my actions. Better yet, I need to respect my BH and always speak with integrity. Todays example was over something minor, but in the past I was a master manipulator and gaslighter. I tell him that I am doing the work and making changes to be a decent person. A decent person does not act how I did today.

Does your BH make you post here?

I hear how my post sounds. My BH didn't tell me to post but I thought about his reaction when I typed my post. When I originally started my post I wanted to ask other waywards how they stopped gaslighting. I have put myself on a hamster wheel and have trapped myself there. I have been honest with my BS and am doing the work to be a healthy partner. But I still get defensive when my BH expresses the pain that my actions have caused. I shut down or I react defensively which increases my anxiety and then I lie or gaslight. It's like I take one step forward and several back. I say that I have let go of the outcome, but then I taylor a post with his reaction in mind. I want our relationship to move forward yet I have dropped explosive mines in our path. Waywards, how did you stop sabotaging and start healing your relationship?

I shut down or I react defensively which increases my anxiety and then I lie or gaslight.

Hi-

As I was reading your first post, this was what came to mind. I feel you are right about what happens.

Now dig deeper into the behavior. Why do you feel the anxiety?

My best suspicion is it it shame-based. Facing what we have done to our bs is proof of what we believe. That we are unworthy, unlovable, etc.

Are you in IC? What are you doing to work on yourself specifically? What do you see as the goals of your work?

I don’t think any of us have that clarity in the beginning but if I am not mistaken you have been at this for a while now. What you are doing isn’t working. I think shame is often the biggest hold back.

We have to retrain our brains and that is a long process. Shame prevents us from being vulnerable and you can’t show up authentically if you are protecting yourself all the time.

“Rising strong” by Brene brown was illuminating for me. Ic was a must. Journaling or posting here helped me see what thoughts I was having that weren’t serving me anymore.

The truth is becoming more vulnerable and showing up with integrity is what starts helping our brains to understand our worthiness. You can’t think your way to it or think the shame away. You have to do things differently and feel that.

Self love and worthiness also can be built up by doing things for yourself that your brain recognizes as love. Selfishness typically comes from lack, getting what we need from other people. If you can figure out what you need and give it to yourself your foundation is different. You will not get the anxiety because you can approve of yourself. You will care how your husband sees you but you will not have the anxiety and knee jerk reactions. This is coming from the shame and the dissonance of knowing you have not done the things that would make you proud of yourself.

The goal in my opinion is not necessarily learning how to behave. Thats the outcome of the work. What the goal to get to the outcome is becoming whole, creating an inner environment that you love yourself, talk to yourself calmly, have realized what thoughts and patterns you have that are sabatoging you and your life and have changed that self talk. From that change you will shed the knee jerk reactions, and you will have a foundation to love and respect others. We can’t give others what we don’t give ourselves.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:17 PM, Tuesday, March 29th]

But I still get defensive when my BH expresses the pain that my actions have caused. I shut down or I react defensively which increases my anxiety and then I lie or gaslight.

That makes sense when it comes from a place of shame. Shame is way up there on the uncomfortable feelings scale and its typical to want to mask it. But covering it up rather than dealing with it will not produce the change you want to see.

In my personal journey I didn't dig too far into the root of shame due to my cheating. I found shame to be quite a natural response, one that there was no real way to make it go away. I'm still to this day deeply ashamed of my actions. What I did was replace the driving force from shame to whatever feelings get shit done.

I started with accountability and ownership. It required a lot of self talk to get things straight in my head. At some point I surrendered AND I use that word because everything in me screamed self preservation we are wired for it especially in high stress situations. Most of my self talk was talking myself down from that state of mind. It wasn't easy but surrendering to the process and trusting without full understanding of why certain things were needed led to opening internal doors for exploration.

But without that full understanding my mind needed a few facts to fill in the gaps and make some kind of sense.

I had to present the facts to myself. And the biggest fact was that we were here because of me. Bottom line. All of this was in fact my fault, I did this to us. And I began to own that, I mean truly own it, felt it to the core. Not just in thought and feeling but actions too. When he would begin to display his anger and pain I found that looking past it to the human that he is, the person who I called my best friend, deep down I fiercely wanted to help him, any defensiveness just seemed to melt away. I wanted to step into his pain, be there with him, sharing in it. His pain was a direct result of my actions, I didn't want to leave him alone in my mess.

Next time you find yourself throwing up walls and getting all up in your defenses, talk to yourself, remind yourself why he's hurt, remind yourself that you actually want to help, and surrender to what it. Soften yourself so he has a place to land.

I think the fact that you back tracked and corrected yourself is a tremendous move forward. Keep doing that every time for the small things and the big things. Every step of the way takes courage. Keep at it.

This may seem pedantic but not all lying is gaslighting. I think this term gets overused a lot on this site. Some lying certainly constitutes gaslighting but unless I'm missing something, it sounds like maybe this was simply lying.

Lying typically is a way of deflecting blame and protecting oneself. Gaslighting has to do with lying to manipulate or wield control over someone else. Here, it sounds like your motivation for lying was to protect to avoid an argument with your husband, rather than to confuse him and manipulate his reality (though that may have been a byproduct). Obviously, neither is acceptable and I certainly don't suggest you get into a semantics argument with your husband over this the next time he points out a lie - my husband used to do this in the context of defensiveness and it made me see red - but I do think its useful for you to consciously consider and name your motivations for lying each time it occurs as it may assist you in getting to the root cause of the problem. As HikingOut suggests, it is very possible that avoiding shame is a big (it's a common one amongst Waywards). Have you examined your FOO issues? What occurred when you did something wrong when you were growing up? For example, in my husband's family, mistakes and errors - even minor ones - were unacceptable and resulted in significant scolding and lecturing and even emotional withholding, which in turn resulted in feelings of shame for him. He quickly learned to lie to avoid the repercussions. By the time he reached adulthood, the feelings of shame every time he made an error had become entirely internalized, and he would go to such great lengths to avoid it that he became an excellent compartmentalizer (another great Wayward skill).

I have no idea of whether any of this is relevant to you, but its worth considering as this is all part of the "work" that gets talked about here.

I still get defensive when my BH expresses the pain that my actions have caused. I shut down or I react defensively which increases my anxiety and then I lie or gaslight.

After reading though some of your posting history, I don't see how you'll ever recover while you're in this marriage. I think there comes a point at which a person can become so defeated in their efforts to please a partner that they can no longer be authentic within the relationship. They just become too nervous and worn down. Your better bet might be to file for divorce, take what you've learned, and create a peaceful environment for yourself. You might move on in time to another relationship where there's less pressure and then you could apply all the good things you've learned to make it wonderful for BOTH parties.

Hi DBM,

It sounds like you're operating from shame. I still do that from time to time- gaslight my husband about minor things. I have 99% stopped. Still, it comes up when it relates to areas of entrenched shame for me: being on time, remembering details and small commitments, just in general, all the lovely fun that comes from being ADHD.

That said, do you notice anything in your body's reaction when you feel the gaslight coming on? Like a tightness in your back? A stiffness in your shoulders or an ache in your gut? Cluing in to these physical reactions and slowing down have really helped me with my defensiveness (and gaslighting is a defense). When that happens, I know enough now to say, "I'm feeling defensive right now. I am feeling attacked right now in this conversation." From there we slow it down and BH has an opportunity to say what he is trying to say in a different way, explain he wasn't attacking or express his own feelings ("I'm feeling upset and frustrated that you didn't remember me teaching DS how to make burgers. I feel like you're not interested in the details of our home life and that our family isn't important to you.")

What is your BH doing for himself in all this? Past posts said he was seeking IC. Are you both in IC? This is not going to progress well unless you are both pulling as a team...

Thank you all for your responses. Several of you brought up shame. I am definitely bogged down in it. Emergent8 - you asked about FOO issues and what happened in my childhood when I did something wrong. I've shared in other posts that I was sexually abused by my father during my childhood. I understand how my childhood shaped my responses as an adult and am working on healing from the abuse. I've lived a lifetime of shame. Hiking Out - I ordered Brene Brown's book tonight. You asked what work am I doing specifically on myself and what do I see as goals of that work. I read a lot. I read about childhood abuse, about lying, about relationship dynamics, about mindfulness. I read about many issues that I struggle with. I meditate most nights before I go to sleep. In the morning I spend time with self affirmations and spend time thinking about the choices I have made in my life and the damage those choices have caused. I work on staying present. I hear my husband when he talks. I don't let myself compartmentalize when he talks and really listen to him. I try to understand the pain that my actions have caused. Goals of my work are that I won't feel the need to protect myself with lies, that I won't live in self doubt and that I will accept myself - all of me. I told my BH that I am learning to like myself. Foreverlabeled - the idea of surrendering sounds overwhelming and daunting but necessary. I do a lot of self talk and will work on letting go and surrendering. I have a death grip on protecting myself and that grip is killing me and my marriage. I need to let go. MIgander - my husband and I were taking a walk a little bit ago and I was able to stop our conversation and tell him that his tone was making me feel defensive and we were able to regroup and continue our conversation. ChamomileTea - thank you for your response. I have been with my husband for 28 years. We have a long history. I have clouded our past, made our present challenging but I have hope that we will have a brighter future together.

Shame. For sure. I understand that and I have to do the same things you do. Meditate, read, affirmations. Learn learn learn. I felt that I had to be perfect when I was younger. So lying came with that. Always feeling like I was in trouble for every little thing. That carried over to my marriage. A grown woman thinking she was in trouble with her husband. I didn’t know how to deal with that. I didn’t feel like I had a voice in anything. And I created that. Some of his actions didn’t help, but that perspective was ingrained in me since childhood. I now feel like i have a voice. And I fight being scared. I get scared of disagreeing and conflict because I wasn’t allowed to disagree ever as a child. And it’s still that way with my mom. I have learned to constantly tell myself not to be scared of feelings and speaking up. I will not die from feeling and speaking. Imagine that! Find your voice. Use it. It’s not easy at first cause it’s a mess and completely garbled, but so what. It’s out rather than being suppressed. Don’t be scared. Remember you are a grown person with feelings and needs and thoughts and imperfections. You are allowed to mess up and go back and say "I messed up and here ha how I will change it". Sorry if that was so random, but I’m right there with ya!

my husband and I were taking a walk a little bit ago and I was able to stop our conversation and tell him that his tone was making me feel defensive and we were able to regroup and continue our conversation

Can't speak for your BS or any other, but the few times my WH was able to do this I really appreciated it. For some folks (and I suspect many WS), just admitting that you feel defensive (or, at least for my WH, admitting any feeling at all) is quite a challenge.

So, obv the gaslighting is not helpful... and sharing your feeling of defensiveness is a positive step (it has the mindfulness of recognizing a feeling, and the vulnerability of expressing it - which resulted in - BONUS! finding a way to get your need met).

I may be a BS, but I think a lot of folks (BS, WS, folks never exposed to infidelity) have difficulty learning to recognize & hold two things/emotions at once (I sure did). Here, the shame of "I screwed up with gaslighting" AND the pleasure of "I did something vulnerable by saying I felt defensive". Both can be true at the same time, yet we humans tend to focus on the former (negative) rather than allow ourselves to also experience/hold the joy in the latter (positive). Counterintuitive as it may sound/feel, it's the latter/positive feelings that help us counterbalance the former (negative/shame). Brene Brown talks about this, as does Rick Hansen and others.

Copec- I don’t want to threadjack but I identify a lot with what you said. I think it was very relevant to this porter as well. Being aware of where a behavior comes from and being able to practice new skills to replace the behavior is exactly what I was trying to convey. We can be afraid or uncomfortable doing it but if we keep being persistent we will get better at the things that hold us back in relationships. That also will signal to your brain that you fee you are worth standing up for, that you can have boundaries and enforce them and it builds self respect. It doesn’t happen overnight. It’s taken me years to get to a place where I feel I do this adequately. Notice I am not saying mastered.

Disgusted by me- all of these things you are doing seems to be on target. I tend to think what chamomile tea points out can be true. I am not saying divorce since that isn’t what you want but those of us who have these people
Pleasing tendency often choose people who can be domineering as opposites attract. You may find negotiating to center to be extremely challenging without some professional help. Dynamics in a relationship can’t be changed by one person. However, you need to see where your lying comes from and make that a thing of the past. I am with foreverlabeled every time you get courage to right your wrong or do the opposite of your tendency it’s progress.

Keep in mind the progress you are seeking the most is to be proud of who you are, how you live your life. Taking that day by day is so important. You are seeking self approval so you aren’t looking to other people to draw a boundary, or call you out, or validation. Love is a fountain inside of us, it’s not external of us. Figure out how to make your fountain work- remember it’s going to be by doing what you know is right, having boundaries and responsibility of your own happiness, and respecting yourself.

Copec- I understand what you're saying about being scared and finding your voice. For me all of that is tied to letting go of the outcome. My mom was a yeller. She was in charge at my house. I never told her about my dad abusing me. My dad was a quiet drunk. He let my mom verbally control him and I imagine that's part of his reason for abusing me. He had complete control in that situation. Speaking up is hard for me. I'm sure that's related to my feeling of worthlessness. How do you speak your truth when you've told so many lies? I get stuck with feeling that speaking my mind is selfish and that my focus needs to be on helping my BH. I feel like those two, speaking up and supporting him, should go hand in hand but I find that they're not. It often feels like a battle. gmc- Thank you for your thoughtful response. Opposing beliefs are what I'm struggling with. The feeling of shame is powerful and overwhelming. Any positive feeling gets pushed aside. I am working on that.

I get stuck with feeling that speaking my mind is selfish

THIS!!!

It's probably the core of co-dependent behavior.

Speaking your mind is not selfish. It is what allows you to have a SELF. If you don't have a self, (a personhood all your own), how can you share that in a relationship with another person? If you don't have a relationship with yourself, how can you relate to others?

I used to think that if I disappeared into what my husband expected and what the Church expected and what my in-laws expected, they would love me, treat me kindly, respect me and cherish me. But they couldn't- there was no more ME there to love and cherish. They couldn't get to know ME because I didn't a. know myself and b. allow others to know me.

I agree that focusing on your BH and healing with him is a good thing to do. However, you are over 7 years out (from your original posts). When is your BH going to do his own work of healing and forgiveness? It takes 2 to have a relationship. You're not entitled by any means to his forgiveness or a chance at R with him. However, you do deserve to be in a loving, mutual relationship. If your BH is not capable of that and is not actively seeking help in getting there, there's no M to be had.

I'll ask again- is your BH in IC? Is he open to IC? At this point, I'm wondering if Chamomile has a point. If your BH refuses to heal, let go, forgive, he has POISON in his soul toward you. That poison will leach into his well and flow out into everything in your relationship.

BH didn't cause this. BS's didn't ask to be here. BS's don't deserve what they got from us WS's. That still doesn't exempt them from the responsibility of doing their work to heal. It's like a person with injuries from a car accident. They didn't want or deserve what they got. But they can decide how much restoration and healing they're willing to fight for in their situation. Some lose a limb and won't ever get that back. I've known people who lost a limb to fight for prosthetics and fight their way back to a mostly normal life. I've also seen people who decide to remain victims and never have the joy of walking on their own again.

It sucks, but you can't have a healed M without a healed BH.

Frankly, that's why I had D papers written up for my BH near the 1 year mark. Either he got into IC and took the wheel in his healing, or there was no way our M was going to heal. At that point, I realized I deserved a healthy M as much as he did. I was no where near being done with my work (and still have much to do), but I had done enough to understand that I couldn't do his work for him. I couldn't MAKE him want to R with me, any more than I could PROVE that I was worth it at that point. All I knew was that we would never get anywhere without him pulling his weight.

What is your BH doing to own his own work?

MIgander - My BH does have poison in his soul; I put it there. He didn't wake up one morning and make a decision to feel how he feels now. He has been present and fought to remain in our marriage. He is not in IC. I've shared in other posts that his mother has Munchausen by proxy and dragged him to psychiatrists, psychologists and counselors from age 4 yo 18 when legally she couldn't make him go. He was put on Prozac with lithium, zoloft, wellbutrin, ritalin and a host of other meds - none of which he needed. Those meds were given when his brain was developing and have caused damage. His mother used therapy against him. After I was caught cheating he was very agreeable to counseling as he wanted to save our marriage. I lied during all of it. 5 years ago he caught me cheating again and wanted my cell phone. I got physical with him to protect my own ass and he fell and broke a bone in his foot. He had every right to be angry and expressed his anger in a counseling session after that and our counselor arranged for him to go inpatient psych. He further damaged his foot there and got no mental health help. Therapy has been weaponized for him. It's not that he's not willing to go - it's traumatic for him at this point given what he has been through. I have been looking for podcasts or YouTube videos to guide conversations for us instead of counseling and he is agreeable. I agree that our marriage will only work if both of us are committed and working on it. He's been trying with me for the last 28 years. It's time that I show up and show him my commitment.

I wrote my last entry when I was at work. Now that I'm home and have had an opportunity to reread my post I feel that I need to add more and dig deeper. I said that I got physical with my BH after he caught me cheating on my phone again. My explanation was minimizing what happened. After my initial act of infidelity I agreed that I would give my husband access to my phone anytime he asked for it. When I was caught again my BH took my phone and was trying to leave our loft so he could try and figure out what was going on. I was pulling on him, fighting him for my phone. I ripped his shirt as he was trying to leave and I was pulling on him. I broke his foot with the weight of me pulling on him. Our neighbors called the police because of my yelling. The police separated us and after talking with us independently, my husband was asked if he wanted to press charges. He declined. Again, he was the better person. I was the one that was sexting with another man and then I assualted my husband. He could have had me arrested but chose not to. I feel like some responses are putting blame on my BH. He has tried to heal from my betrayals. I am wondering if anyone knows of any online resources that my BH and I can access to help guide us through healing in lieu of counseling.

Truly fascinating, given your last post, that CT views you as the victim here and you’d be better off filing for D. Are there major parts of your story missing here?