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I don't think you are being too easy on her in this instance. I do agree with Chamomile Tea that she has acted immature and self centered. Reading between the lines, perhaps you and others put her on a pedestal. That is never a good place to put your life partner. The OBS delivered her message well. Your WW has hit rock bottom. Now you will see if the woman you married has the strength to face herself and build herself back up, and become a better partner. Good luck.

Hi ASL,

Just checking in. What happened after your last convo? Is everything alright on your end?

Thanks for reaching out.

I'm really struggling to battle my own demons.

WW and I had our first MC online on Monday. It was a shitfest. To give context to our therapist we emailed him the same copy of the timeline my WW had shown me. When we started, our therapist's attention immediately went to me, I expected us to tackle WW's unacceptable behavior but he just asked what I felt and not to leave out details - in fact, the more details the better.

I already knew what I wanted to say, that ever since my wife gave me the timeline, I can't help but have these unhealthy thoughts of harming Phillip. After our fight, I felt pity for him but now I loathe him, I have revenge and torture fantasies running through my head all day - gruesome shit that I'm pretty sure would violate community standards if I posted. I've never hated anyone as much as I hate him right now. These thoughts keep running through my mind and I'll find myself loathing the idea of happiness, resenting that I am left out here as a shell of a human being while this fuckwad is out there living and breathing. Seeking revenge would ruin my life, he isn't worth it, but everything else is just so fucking unsatisfying. I wished his nose stay permanently crooked. If I hadn't known better, I would have sex with OBS twice the times WW and AP did. But I can't do that to OBS especially with her being pregnant. But I would be lying if I didn't fantasize about it. If I do something to him, I fuck up my life and make myself look like an idiot, if I do nothing I obsess over all the things I WISH I could've done do to him. People keep telling me that men seem to focus more on the physical side of it and I can say for me it's true. This guy was INSIDE MY WIFE and the mental images don't stop. Fuck you, Phillip.

That is what I wanted to say but instead, I just held out and made some shit up about being sad and unloved while in reality, I'm already in the stage of rage. That's how it goes right? First denial, then sadness, and rage? I can't believe these things are true.

Well, I knew that these thoughts were unhealthy but I also knew I had to sort it out myself so I scheduled an emergency counselling my workplace offered and I told her this. And surprisingly she was really helpful and agreeable. She walked me through why vengeance is a normal reaction. I told her about how emasculating it was to do nothing, and she compared me to a hero. He said one of the reasons people become a hero is not because of what they do but because of what they don't, despite the evil that they are facing, they are treating them with justice and mercy. Something that I already am giving my WW. She said me choosing to do nothing was a sign of strength, not weakness. She helped me redirect my feelings with AP, to me respecting myself while feeling bad FOR the AP. Feeling bad for what he is, what he represents, the depths he's steeped to.

--------------------------------------------

Back to our MC, after our MC asked what I felt. he turned to WW to restate her reasons for straying.

She told us that she didn't seek an affair instead AP sought her out. But because of the loneliness, she was feeling, she did not do a very good job of responding to it. She admittedly said that she was weak and stupid but she also said that her attention got redirected to this fantasy that she had. She knew what she was doing was wrong but she felt ill from this addiction.

Mc asked me how I see WW. And I said that it's hard to give everything that I had for her anymore. That its difficult to determine who she really is or what kind of person she currently is. "I see the woman I spent my whole life with, but now I see a side of her that I didn't think existed." I yearned for that kind of love. That adulterous passion that you have for your partner but with your spouse instead. I wanted to have an affair with my wife. I told them that ever since we got married and kids, even before that, I thought that she didn't have this wild side. That 5 times a day kind of sex. But to only find out now that not only she had that in the first place but she gave it to someone else really hurts. "I didn't want to feel entitled to sex. I don't want to force you to do something you're not. But please don't tell me that you're someone when you're not." All I wanted was spontaneity. I want what WW and AP had and it hurts. I'm jealous because they only had highs while our marriage had both highs and lows. And that no matter what I do, it's not guaranteed that I can have it with my wife. In the whole 12 years that we have known each other, I have been deceived. I have never seen this side of her and I want it but she gave it to someone else.

----------------------------------------

Well, of course, my wife cried the entire time. I told her that she needs to get an attorney. I told her it doesn't mean divorce but she needs to see her options and to send that POS fucking Phillip a real NC letter.

I called OBS to check up on her but she didn't answer. I'll ring her again tomorrow.

WW and I are now having sex like bunnies.

That's my sordid tale.

[This message edited by ASoreLoser at 7:32 PM, July 13th (Tuesday)]

Thank you for your update.

That's really painful to read. The 5 times a day sex with AP got to me. It's hard to accept that your wife claimed she's not up for it but then she did it with AP (Phillip) during their affair.

The good thing I'm seeing with you is you're still able to have sex with your wife. Most betrayed men can't even get a hard on with their wives after knowing the affair. I count that as a good thing.

Well, take your time to process things and all the best to you and your family.

Thanks for the update:

Everything you stated is so terribly normal for your situation. If you read here often enough this same scenario plays over and over. Your anger and frustration, especially with your sex life, have been echoed over and over by betrayed BH’s. The hysterical bonding is also very common. Of course none of this makes it any less painful for you. But you are not alone. We have felt this anger and pain.

Take care of you. Get IC to help with your anger and feeling of humiliation. Your WW basically admitted she did it out of a fantasy and escape. Liked the excitement. She needs to grow the hell up. Whether you ultimately decide to R or D, your four children need two adult parents. Watch her actions. Is she empathetic for your pain? Does she demonstrate humility for her betrayal? This is not a race. You need to take time to heal. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 9:20 PM, July 13th (Tuesday)]

I believe that is hysterical bonding and it won't last.

What you're feeling is so normal and so real.

But the sex you are having for now is so fake and so abnormal. You know this. You know it's not in her to you. You explained better than anyone.

This forum is an odd place. A bunch of strangers on the internet, commenting on each other's lives based only on snippets of information voluntarily revealed. However, the one thing about this place is that it is a deep reservoir of crowd-sourced wisdom about infidelity, amassed by people with direct experience.

One of the things we've seen over and over again is that, even if you sincerely want to give R a shot, MC at this stage is at best a waste of time, and quite likely a step backward. Another thing we've seen, over and over, is a newly minted BH coming here believing he has a WW with whom he can pass through a secret wormhole in space/time that provides a shortcut to healing and R.

Consider this analogy. You discover a long-time employee has been embezzling for years. You learn that this employee has a chronic gambling problem, causing him to piss his money away. It's like an addiction. You're a "second chances" guy, but even you would not consider giving him another chance at work unless he first seeks professional help for his gambling problem, so that you can feel secure about him being a safe employee.

This is exactly the same reason MC at this stage is counterproductive. You're in counseling as yourself. Your WW is in counseling as somebody with a cheating heart. Until she figures out what is fucked up in her moral compass and fixes it, MC is simply going to patch you back up with a cheater.

Consider this: but for the fact that you discovered the A and confronted her, she would still be fucking her boyfriend. Yes she's all waterworks and snot now, but it's not remorse. Don't kid yourself. She's sorry for herself, for the predicament she's in. The OBW thinks she's a slut. You're all butt-hurt and lost. The AP is a pissed off drunk, but she has roots with him and her heart is broken that those roots can't find fertile ground. She has surrounded herself with pain and destruction, and naturally this makes her cry. She's working with you because she perceives you to be her shortest path out of the vortex she's in. It's not because she has figured out that she has any genuine regard or love for you and the livelihood you have worked your ass off to provide for her and your family.

Just nine days ago, after you confronted her, she admitted that she was still in contact with the AP. She told you this:

I asked her if she was still in contact with OM. She admitted it, what she said was the truth. She said that OM was in a really low place and she felt guilty because of the part she played in it. She thought that she should at least let him down slowly.

She was more concerned with the AP - the man who came to your family home to try to beat you in front of your kids - than with you. Just 9 days ago. And you're in MC with her? Are you kidding? What outcome can you possibly expect will arise from counseling with a wife whose heart still wants to protect the asshole who tries to beat a man in his home in front of his kids?

She specifically told him (when she thought it was still hidden from you): "I wish it was you and me against the world." Utterances of her true heart. Until you are absolutely certain her heart does not harbor that wish, you are in quicksand, my friend.

I'm mindful that you knew about the A, with documented evidence, for months before confronting her.

In your first post, you said:

I'm afraid that I might regret this. I'm afraid of the blowout. I'm afraid because I'm still in love with her and maybe this is too cruel. I have never seen this side of me that is too rational and too quick to say "fuck this shit, I'm out". I don't know if I want to fight for us. I have both feet out the door but I still want to go inside.

We all feel that way. The dynamic is the following. Learning about infidelity is like being thrust into a science-fiction horror world of antimatter, where everything you once thought was steady and reliable is a trickster. A house of mirrors. What every BH yearns for, more than anything, is a return to the "before time", a return to the innocent, trusting love, the warm fuzzy blanket feeling of security in the sense of his place as a father, a husband, a family man, a hard-working provider whose daily toils are appreciated by a loving wife.

The hardest thing to accept is that this reality didn't exist. It was a figment of your imagination. While you thought you were being Mr. Nose To The Grindstone as a way of underscoring your devotion to fathering and husbanding, your WW was demonizing you, withdrawing, and fucking her old boyfriend, whom she believes was/is her heart's true love.

Stop sniffing the hopium. Get out of MC. Implement the 180 and tell your WW to get off the snot train and figure her shit out. If she really wants you to offer her the gift of R, she'll stop trying to manipulate you by pussy-bombing and crying to awaken your KISA instinct. These are the oldest, most common tricks of any newly cornered WW, and they are implemented not to R but to find the easiest, laziest path out of the shitstorm that she created. It's lazy, it's dishonest, it's manipulative. Mostly, it's disingenuous.

Be warned that true R is a marathon, not a sprint. You have to invest years just to figure out if there is a chance. Years of catharsis, gut-wrenching emotion, etc. Among other things, your WW has to be able to look you in the eye like a man and (a) tell you frankly that she liked having him inside of her, and (b) listen without flinching as you vent your legitimate anger and pain. Over and over and over. For years.

Is your WW a long-distance runner? Does she have that level of toughness and stick-to-it ability? Because if she doesn't, here's how you get your revenge on the AP: let him have her.

She also explained that there was some form of emotional attachment because she felt overwhelmed with 4 kids and that I wasn't really present with her. She said she needed my help not specifically physically but emotionally. She had felt that the most important things in my life were my job and kids and she felt neglected. Then OM came and her weakness let her succumb to his advances.

The oldest story in the book. Total bullshit. Literally 3/4 of the threads here with a cheating wife who is a mother in middle age has exactly this same narrative. Of course she felt "lurve". He whispered sweet things in her ear because she was throwing the good pussy at him. He got all the good stuff and never had to carry any water for her, at all. Never dealt with a kid puking at night. Never brought her water when she was sick. Never deposited his paycheck into her account so she could buy a few nice things.

Consider this: millions of married people go through a mid life crisis without fucking somebody behind their spouse's back. In fact, that is what you specifically promise to do in your marriage vows. Therefore, not fucking somebody else, that's a simple matter of doing what you promised to do. Married people who choose adulterous sex as the palliative for this normal life's phase that everybody passes through, they are people who choose to break their promises when they subjectively feel that their circumstances are heavy. Promise breakers. People for whom "forsake all others until death" means "I can have a secret, one-sided open marriage if I decide that it's okay for me". People you can't rely on in the battlefield. People who won't have your back in the clutch. People not worthy of commitment at the level of marriage.

Earlier before I found out about WW's affair, I was always trying to initiate not exactly sex but intimate moments with my wife with the free time that I have, but it went dry and drier until I forgot how good it felt. I missed it.

Again, I'm sorry to say, this is so cliche. She withholds sex from you because she's throwing dakine pussy at the AP. She was saving it up, for him. No gratitude nor humility at all over the effort you make to be a husband and a provider. Is that really the person you want to grow old with? I guarantee you can do better.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:33 PM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

Sounds like you have a good IC. Keep moving forward and the answers will come to you.

Hey man all that hate in your second paragraph of previous post... maybe displaced? I think your hatin' on the wrong person.

I think your wife needs a TON of individual counselling. Wait until that completes before marriage counselling.

I'm skeptical, YOU: "marriage counselor, my cheating wife and I want to repair our marriage"

MC: "OK sir well here's what I see wrong with you..."

F that.

Someone stole from you. He did. Someone abused you. She did. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Don’t do anything stupid. One poster on here waited until the OM died and then peed on his grave. Just wait. You have time.

Accidental duplicate post

[This message edited by clouds777 at 9:35 AM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

She should get an attorney AND a job. She isn't sorry, she is feeling sorry for herself. Her life should change immediately so she doesn't have time to feel sorry for herself because she is too busy working her ass off to find a job, juggle home responsibilities and counseling.

Remember your wife is the reason Philip is in your life. She invited him. You should focus your anger squarely on your wife. She knew what she was doing, knew it would destroy her family and did it over and over because she felt entitled too, just like she now feels entitled to have you support her while she sobs about what she did to you.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 9:36 AM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

Continue with the IC because that anger towards the AP needs to be redirected. Yes, he's scum. But he didn't commit to be faithful, your WW did. He didn't promise to share a life with you, your WW did. He isn't the problem, your WW is.

Google: "hysterical bonding"

You've been triggering a lot of feel good chemicals in your head. It's a short term fix and usually ends abruptly with reality hitting you hard.

You need to prepare yourself for falling off the cliff.

From your posts, your wife seems to typically respond to difficult situations relating to her inappropriate behavior with tears and snot.

IMO you should remind her that you are the victim of adultery (not her); and tears & snot from the adulterer are typically viewed as manipulate (feel sorry for me) tactics. It was appropriate in Kindergarden but not as an adult.

There are more constructive responses. Maybe she should reread the book on how to help your spouse heal...

With respect to your anger toward the OM.

It's irrelevant who reached out first. Your wife made hundreds of decisions that led her down the road to adultery.

1 - Although he is a POS, he didn't betray your trust (he owed you nothing). He simply took advantage of low hanging fruit.

2 - Your wife is broken with or without the OM. It's likely that if it wasn't him then it would have been someone else (this year or next ...).

I think that Butforthegrace gave a perfect explanation of where you are currently at, and what you are dealing with. I do want to comment on his last line:

Is that really the person you want to grow old with? I guarantee you can do better.

I also guarantee that you can do better. And if the two of you decide to attempt reconciliation, your wife could be that better person. But just as BFTG said, she better get her ass in gear if this is the case. And that starts with stopping any manipulation....intended or not. Dry those effing tears and suck up that snot, and be strong for herself and her husband.

Cancel the MC. I don't have any issue with what this counsellor did or did not do, but right now, the 'marriage' is on the back burner. The 'marriage' is not the issue. It's a shame that it is even a factor, but with children and finances, it is intertwined. That's why you need to see a lawyer; to learn how to untangle these if necessary. And by 'necessary', I mean if you or your wife are committed to this 100%.....especially her. Her efforts need to exceed yours, by a great amount, and without your prodding or interference. You can't make her love you, and you can't make her hate Phillip. She shouldn't ever hate him anyway; that would show a charged emotion. She should work to be indifferent to him. And no matter what, that eventuality, if possible, takes time.

He came to your home because he knew where you lived...as he had been there before.

He came to beat you to death in front of your kids as he had to assume you were all home and he brought violence into your family. It’s great that you are a tough guy but I’ve zipped tough guys into body bags when they had a bad day. You were one punch, blade, or bullet from your kids getting a new daddy.

She did that. She brought that into your home.

After seeing him for who he is...a man who tried to stomp your brains out ...who did she worry about and protect?

Him.

She was fine with him beating on you and was worried you hurt him as evidenced by her concern calls to him.

WTF are you doing with her. She is ok with her OM trying to beat you to death in your own yard....and don’t think he wouldn’t if he could have.

D her for your own sake.

Let me preface this with my admission that I will hate and despise every bitch who fucked my husband for the rest of my life. There will never be a day in which I would be daunted if one of them burst into flames before my very eyes. So yeah... I get it. But it's a distraction. It's a way of refocusing your anger so that you don't have to direct it toward your cheater.

One of the biggest hurdles in healing, if you ask me, is getting over our possessive feelings regarding our spouse. These feelings are relatively universal and no one ever tells us that they're dangerous, but after an adultery... we can SEE with our own eyes how harmful it can be.

In our minds, someone else has taken what is ours. But this is an illusion. We don't OWN people. We say "my husband" or "my wife" but that can only differentiate them from other husbands and wives. We cannot possess other people. We can't control their minds or their actions. Once we've entered into a primary relationship with our mate, we somehow begin using them as some kind of barometer of our own value. If they get drunk at a party and make a fool of themselves, we're personally embarrassed. If they do well for themselves professionally, we brag as if it were a feather in our own cap.

I'm not saying that ALL our pain is caused by our own possessive feelings. That's just not true. Our trust is broken by someone we believed would never betray us. But our possessive feelings magnify all that. You said, "This guy was INSIDE MY WIFE", but so was her gynecologist at her last pelvic exam, and so were her lovers previous to you and your marriage. Most of us aren't such prim little pilgrims about sex. That is, until it's sex with OUR spouse. (see above, bursting into flames)

Your WW made hundreds and thousands of willful CHOICES in order to have an affair behind your back. She didn't consult you on any of those choices and NONE of them are any reflection on you. She is her own person. You will never be able to see into her head or know her actual thoughts. She is separate from you and nothing about her changes your worth or value.

It always amazes me that men go right to the "I am emasculated" theme. But why? You don't own that woman. She is no reflection on you. She has free will and makes her own choices. And NO ONE has a magic penis which will keep a woman mesmerized and in thrall.

Anyway, I do understand why you've got so much rage toward the AP. But it's a mistake to allow yourself to get so distracted by that that you miss the REAL CULPRIT. Your WW needs to get into therapy and figure out why she's capable of saying "yes" to adultery and lies. And I guarantee you... THAT is on her. If she makes efforts to blame-shift to you, which she already has when she sited her "loneliness", she needs to go back to the drawing board. She is an ADULT, not a child in need of constant entertaining. If she's not busy enough with FOUR children under 6, send her out to get a job. That way, next time you catch her with her pants down, it will cost you less at settlement.

Believe me, I understand how easy it is to be taken in by the crocodile tears and snot-bubbled promises to change. And their bullshit sounds so plausible. But do you honestly think that if it had been YOU who had had a sexual affair with a wife and four Littles at home that anyone would buy that you were "lonely"??? Of course not. You are an ADULT. Your WW needs to get in therapy and stay there until she's accountable for her actions and has developed enough character to be a woman of her word. MC doesn't make that happen. Worse, a bad MC can inadvertently cause more harm than help.

Marriages don't cheat. People do. People with poor character who are capable of saying "yes" to perfidy. The MC is there to treat the marriage, and they will do that by trying to find wrong on both sides so that neither party feels picked on. Adultery doesn't have two sides though. It's all on the cheater. So, my advice, if you are going to continue in MC, is that you never allow a blame-shift to stand. If you are capable of standing up for yourself and fighting back when necessary, there's no reason not to forge ahead. But if you are the kind of person who has trouble with confronting a so-called "authority", it might be better to wait until your WW has had at least enough IC that she stops blameshifting.

I don't think you're wrong to try for R. You have so many little people and your WW is an immature, irresponsible mess. If you can get some traction here, at least there's ONE SANE ADULT there for your kids. But be smart. Don't take any responsibility for her actions. Her feet need to be held to the fire until there's REAL CHANGE. Nothing she has done is about you or is a refection on you. Don't forget that you are NOT trapped. Yes, you've got a full house of Littles to think of and a divorce decision would create quite a lot of inconvenience and expense. But you are NOT trapped. You are free to change your mind at any time and go the D path instead. There's a certain amount of freedom in acknowledging that you have CHOICE, so don't forget that YOU control where you plant your feet and you control that choice every day.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 1:45 PM, July 14th (Wednesday)]