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My ex-wife, after her first affair, would say she loved me. I would tell the marriage counselor in separate sessions that I don't believe her. The therapist said I should take her at her word. Well, she cheated again and now states that she never loved me and was forced to marry me by her mom. So, basically, cheaters lie. Maybe not all the time, but how could anyone tell.

My wife’s affair lasted 3 1/2 years, long distance Year one they traveled to one another for a week or weekend of sex play. Years 2-3 1/2 were an EA as he pulled away and moved on. In year one she told me she had emotionally divorced me, didn’t love me and was no longer “in love with me.” As he pulled away, that gradually reverted back and I came to realize “love is a decision more than a feeling.” She says I love you often, and I respond either with “ok” or silence. I rarely express it in words. I feels contrived. The opposite of love is not hate, but rather indifference. That’s where I am 30 years later after her two attempts that create a life with her narcissist lover. I enjoy our status and position in life, but love went out the window with her breaking of her vows. She recently told me she lost not only my love, but also me as her best friend. I shrugged and responded “I hope he was worth it!”

I’m not sure ever believing unconditionally again is ever remotely possible...too many lies, betrayals, rug sweeping and gas lighting to be that trusting again. Just my opinion.

[This message edited by Niceguy25 at 1:25 PM, May 6th (Thursday)]

I have trouble with his "I love you" because, as he admitted to his EA partner, he was never in love with me. He knows now (well, he wrote this in his journal) that he always was in love with her, from the moment he met her in Sept of 1986. But we'd just moved in together, in a new city, new state. She was from Switzerland, visiting friends in the USA. He was afraid... didn't want to hurt me, didn't want to hurt our relationship for something he didn't even know existed, didn't want to tell her his feelings because their friendship (all 4 days of it) was so special. HE WROTE THIS IN MAY OF 2020. So I know he was never in love with me, know he was thinking of leaving me in 1992 when she told him she was getting married (because they'd exchanged letters about once a year), said that was the last time he cried as an adult. I found out about their EA in April 2018 when he asked me to bring his laptop to him at work. I had no suspicions at all when I opened the laptop to see if I should bring the charger, too... and there is all was on FB messenger, long emotional, loving conversations. Not stupid, I checked his email and found a second "friend." Confronted, ignored, lied to, trickled...he thinks he is so tech-savvy but I can read his email and many of his files. This is how I found out, in July of 2020, that he'd asked her to snail mail, only to his work address, and that's when I also found out about the secret email account that only the 2 of them use. For 3 years it's been TT. Last July was my last encounter (I moved to our spare room in May 2020), told him if there was no explanation of everything by Sept 2020 I would consider that he didn't care if I stayed or divorced him. Of course, nothing... so before seeing a lawyer in Oct 2020, I sent her an email asking for a full explanation of what she thought her relationship with my DH might be, giving her some of the details of his writings. Suddenly the email address I had for her was shut down and her FB page has disappeared to me. I have no idea if they ended it or not.. the only thing he ever said to me was "In the email C sent, telling me never to contact her again, she did say she never intended to break up our marriage." He's never really admitted, never explained, is offended that I read his FB and email (he doesn't know what I can still access), feels his privacy has been violated, feels he'll never get over things I said to him in anger (things like "F-you" and "I hate you" and stuff). I stay because I am 65, don't want to grow old alone, don't want to start over, we have entwined retirement, cars, house, I can live in celibacy (17 years and going strong), I'm financially better off with him than not. We get along, have our conversations, go out, have a good time, people think we have such a great relationship. I mourn the loss of our marriage, I mourn the loss of my past now that I know it never was what I thought it was...

So YES, I have trouble with his hugs, his "I love you"

One of the first big problems with any discussion of love is that, words have to have some common meaning for two or four or a hundred people to have a dialog that makes sense to all.

There are some words that describe what many would say are required in order for marital love to exist:

Honesty - generally defined in a way most agree

Loyalty - generally defined in a way most agree

Compassion - generally defined in a way most agree

Respect - generally defined in a way most agree

Fidelity - very easy for most to agree on the definition

Many words that when acted out, could be lumped in together as being "love". But defining "love" in a way that all can say, yes he loved her and no he does not love her is way too fuzzy. Well, not fuzzy for me. And maybe for you it is clear too, but it does not mean the clarity of what love is is clear in the same way for all of us. Then there are the dreaded "feelings" of love and with that it all goes to hell in a handbasket as who can't agree 100% on which feelings are really love and even if you can, then what kind of "love" are they and what should one be feeling vs what other feelings are not quite right

I prefer to leave the did they love me, do they love me, what kind of love is this love thing, to others. I know what love looks like in behaviors. I don't care much how one feels about me as long as they can maintain loving behaviors in a consistent and authentic way. Call it love if you want. But then, what if it is not the love that has quite the same makeup and behaviors as others.

As Tina Turner said, what's love got to do with it. I leave the whole mess and lack of shared specificity to the philosophers and BS's that have a need to work it out. Did my fWS "love" her AP. Of course she did if how one feels flashing moment by moment defines love. Did she love her AP if love can only exist if it relies on the behaviors above, of course she didn't. Does it matter now. Not a bit. What matters to me is, do her behaviors align with the ones that I have decided must exist to be considered love. If so, I don't sweat the "love" talk. It's a word.

I agree that Actions speak louder than Words. That being said, which actions. Crawling in bed for sex with her AP or making me breakfast in bed before initiating sex? Both are physical actions related to saying “I love you”, but Which one of us was getting a line and which one was getting the truth?