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I Never Imagined My Wife Would..

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This0is0Fine posted 4/14/2021 18:01 PM

With adult children I would just do the 23andme gift thing. "It's fun let's all do it!"

Foley05 posted 4/14/2021 18:03 PM

My 2 cents: give Newlife's point, that R takes a good 2 to 5 years, serious consideration. Looking at it now, it may be just a number, but there are plenty of examples on SI of exactly what those 2 to 5 years are going to be like. It's a heavy slog under the best of circumstances - and "best of circumstances" means, among other things, a WW who isn't trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug - with an uncertain course and an uncertain destination. Read some of the stories and think very carefully about how you want to spend the rest of your sixties.

nekonamida posted 4/14/2021 18:51 PM

It's certainly not bonkers or vindictive in the least if the OP actually wants a paternity test. That said, if he thinks his children are his, it's also not vital.
After nearly two decades of falsehood, he's certainly entitled to wonder about such things.

As an example, consider the SOP advice that BH's should VAR up after D-Day as insurance against false DV charges perpetrated by a WW. Is it likely in every case? Certainly not.

Yep. Standard operating procedure unless OP says he doesn't want it.

Most BHs who get a DNA test turn out to be the father of their kids. But an uncomfortable number find out that one or more of the kids aren't theirs and no one wants to be unwittingly in that category when the 23andme results come in or the wrong blood type is revealed. OP should be able to make a decision about whether it matters to him or not.

Wiseoldfool posted 4/14/2021 19:03 PM

Some of you would do well to consider the law of unintended consequences.

I write this post to illustrate why it might not be appropriate to hit every single BH with the ďDEMAND A DNA TESTĒ point in the first five things heís told to do upon his arrival here.

In this post, we have a man, 64, who learned his wife had a long term affair that ended over a decade ago. She was 47 when it started.

Indulge me a couple of assumptions here. First, there are children in this marriage, though he didnít mention them. In my line of work, we call that a clue, but whatever.

Second, WestofBostonís wife probably did not conceive a child at 47 or later. Any children in this marriage likely predate this affair by a decade or more. If there are minor children conceived during the affair, I agree, test them. But if they were not conceived during this affair, they are fully grown independent adults now who likely believe, maybe rightfully so, that westofboston and his wife are their natural parents, and they are certainly the only parents theyíve ever known.

Suppose, third, that westofboston was merely an average father. He went to ball games and recitals and parent teacher conferences and graduations and weddings and all the shit that fathers do. He is what I call, fully invested.

Now suppose, fourth, that westofboston never gets a WW who makes any effort to reconcile. She stubbornly refuses to engage in anything that would be helpful, so he resigns himself to divorce. He knows enough: she cheated, she wonít do anything to repair the marriage. Heís done.

Those of you arguing every man, including westofboston, should DNA test any and all children born of his wife: tell me, what good would it do for him to DNA test those children I hypothetically created.

If they are his, he carries on with some relief that they are, but not necessarily with any concrete evidence to exclude one or more prior affairs. He just knows he is the father of the children he has always believed himself to be. To get the DNA done, he almost surely has to tell the adult children something he might rather not: he suspects their mother of an affair but has no proof of it except this other affair. Now the children are involved beyond the degree it might ever have been helpful.

Suppose those DNA test results reveal he is not the father. His pain is compounded exponentially. Ok, he is now aware of at least one prior affair, maybe more. The children are now also wounded, but to what end? Is he any less their father figure? What do they do with this terrible revelation? Revile their mother? Love him less? What does he do with that terrible revelation? Rewrite his will to exclude them? Shun them? Send them off to find their ďreal father?Ē Is this man not in enough pain right now? You would have him risk more pain for himself and others for what upside?

Now suppose the WW here repents, and - like countless of our wives - finally gets it. She does her part. They move towards real reconciliation. The DNA test is helpful how then? To show her how little he trusts her? Really? You think thereís some doubt about that? You think she thinks thereís some doubt about that? The remorseful wife needed her nose rubbed in it ten ways, not nine? That was helpful?

Think for one minute about rolling out the same list some of you seem to have in a digital post it note just waiting for the next BH to show up so you can pounce. Are you really helping westofboston with this advice? Are you really helping every BH with this advice?

Presumably any man who could get a DNA this week could get one next week if it turned out, on reflection or in light of developments, that it was a good idea. So why demand it right now, today, at the same time he does all these other things. Most of the rest of the standard to do list run at these poor BH actually do directly and immediately start to get the BH out of infidelity. This ďDEMAND A DNAĒ doesnít, at least not like the rest of the list.

Iííll say it again for the people who only hear it the third time. Not every damn BH needs a DNA test in the week he learns of his wifeís infidelity. Measure twice, cut once.

nekonamida posted 4/14/2021 19:10 PM

Those of you arguing every man, including westofboston, should DNA test any and all children born of his wife: tell me, what good would it do for him to DNA test those children I hypothetically created.

The importance of it is entirely for him to determine. You're not him. You don't get to say that it will or won't help him. YOU may not see any point even if paternity was a question in your situation but OP might.

Suppose those DNA test results reveal he is not the father. His pain is compounded exponentially. Ok, he is now aware of at least one prior affair, maybe more. The children are now also wounded, but to what end? Is he any less their father figure? What do they do with this terrible revelation? Revile their mother? Love him less? What does he do with that terrible revelation? Rewrite his will to exclude them? Shun them? Send them off to find their ďreal father?Ē Is this man not in enough pain right now? You would have him risk more pain for himself and others for what upside?

Can't these exact questions be applied to revealing an A in general or telling the OBS? OP has the right to know the truth of his marriage and he has the right to make changes as he sees fit when he gets it. As sad as it is, if OP finds out he is not the father to one of his adult children and their relationship changes because of it, that is not on him. It's on his WW who slept around knowing this could be the outcome. Even if the concept of turning your back on a child you raised seems like a terrible and fruitless outcome to both you and me, and we would probably never go for it, we're not him. We don't get to make that choice for him. He deserves to proceed however he sees fit and be supported in that whether it's through a DNA test or not.

I don't want to threadjack this any further but OP should absolutely get to hear both sides of this argument.

Wiseoldfool posted 4/14/2021 19:31 PM

I don't want to threadjack this any further but OP should absolutely get to hear both sides of this argument.

I agree, which is why I waited until the "DEMAND A DNA TEST" advice was offered twice, and why I have made the posts Iíve made here.

This "DEMAND A DNA TEST" advice is almost never couched with any pros and cons. It is offered as if it is an article of faith among everyone here, beyond question, recited among the other commandments as if it were chiseled on a tablet.

It isnít.

And it isnít always relevant, helpful, or wise. And it is seldom as urgent as it is made to seem, even when it might be relevant, helpful, or wise.

This0is0Fine posted 4/14/2021 19:54 PM

Gaining knowledge of the truth in an important matter that significantly impacts you is the right path. No truth, no agency.

Otherwise a WS could be "right" to take a secret affair to the grave. It's pure wayward thinking that lack of knowledge means lack of harm.

kickedintheknads posted 4/14/2021 20:46 PM

Peeps, let's step away from the paternity testing thing for a moment. OP has bigger fish to fry. The 2 to 5 year recovery thing is ONLY if she is willing to do her part. From what OP has written, she is not.
It seems she has compartmentalized her actions as her own private little fantasy world that OP has no right to. That's where OP has to get in and break that little fantasy world up.

64? yeah, I get it. I was 62 when my D Day appeared. Yes it's tough. BUT...I can truly say, I'd rather be alone than have to look at her every day knowing she's a lying, cheating whore that I can't trust. With no trust, there is no relationship.

OP, for there to be any chance of you saving this marriage, she has to get on board the healing train, and want to save it too. So far, she isn't even trying.

I'm not going into what I went through, as it's all here somewhere. But I can tell you for sure, when you slap them with divorce papers, and the knowledge that you are going to light them up to EVERYONE seems to loosen their tongues when it comes to details you MUST have. (or "I" did anyway) It can't work if she's still holding secrets from you.
The mental movies are killers.
So far, the critical part of reconciliation, Remorse, is non existent. I don't see how you are going to make this work without it.

I hope you can find some peace in all of this, but I can tell you from experience, you are in for a bumpy ride.
I'm two years from my D Day, and it still eats me up.

longsadstory1952 posted 4/14/2021 23:32 PM

Your post is so disturbing. Your wife accepts no consequences and will let you drift in an ocean of grief on the bullshit premise that it was so long ago.

Actually it wasnít so long ago. 11 years is nothing. And she did it for five years. So who gives a fuck if she thought she loved him. She dishonored and abused and lied to you. And if he was her boss, then there was daily contact and probably sexual encounters beyond counting.

Let me guess, now she is saying she loved you the whole time and never intended to leave you. See? She did you a favor!

Look, find your anger. She doesnít care to discuss it, then she should get the fuck out of your life. Like right now.

Blow this up and have her move out. There is no other way to get her attention. She thinks she has the whip hand so prove her wrong.

Man up, and start a new life without her used ass. Trust me, you are not old and have years before you without this cold hearted bitch around.

Ets. Has she even apologized or offered any explanation?

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 11:37 PM, April 14th (Wednesday)]

keptmyword posted 4/15/2021 00:05 AM

As I told my wife, had I learned of the affair during those 5 years, I would have filed for divorce.

Whatís the difference between knowing then and knowing now?

Is knowledge of the betrayal different in the present than it would have been then?

The length of time that has passed is irrelevant to whether you can live with the betrayal or cannot.

Itís been just over a month since I learned of the affair, but my wife now tells me she refuses to discuss the affair any longer because it happened long ago and itís too emotionally difficult for her to discuss.

Becoming single at 64 may have some challenges, as there are at any age, but being married to this level of inconceivable selfishness is far and away worse, way, way worse, than dating in your 60ís or at any other age.

There is no compassion, no empathy, no remorse, no character and no soul in this person.

She obviously could not give a shit about your pain.

She only cares that she got caught and now your deep pain and wanting to know the truth of her betrayal is nothing but a mirror being put in front of her face and she wants none of it.

Unfortunately, from now on, and due to no fault of yours, you will be a constant reminder to her of how much of a complete failure she is as a human being.


Because you know the truth she hates about herself.

[This message edited by keptmyword at 12:09 AM, April 15th (Thursday)]

Buster123 posted 4/15/2021 00:18 AM

1) Exposure: Full exposure with all family and close friends, and of course to OBS (Other Betrayed Spouse) and the children if any, WITHOUT WARNING (very important), she didn't just betray you, she betrayed the entire family. And yes if you have children with her, Exposure typically kills the "beautiful, romantic and exciting" aspects of the A and replaces them with pure shame and embarrassment, just because he retired doesn't mean it ended,

2) Demand she gets tested for STDs (you should too), some remain dormant for a long time, and again. Yes she was playing russian roulette with your health by exposing you to potentially serious STDs/STIs, even while you were trying to recover from 3 surgeries.

3) Demand a full written timeline of the A and any others she may confess to(subject to a polygraph).

4) Talk to a D attorney to know your legal options, knowledge is power.

5) I'm purposely putting this one here in the "top five", Yes, if you have any children with her DNA test them, she's now a proven cheater and liar, this may not be her first rodeo but just the first time you caught her, if the results turn out ok and they are yours, well good, at least you know for sure, if not, well more relevant information for you to make a life altering decision.

6) She needs to send an NC FOREVER text/letter to POSOM, for all you know they could be hooking up from time to time, it needs to be short and to the point, no sweet goodbyes. To conduct a 5 year LTA she could have friends/relatives who enabled/helped her cover it, those people if any, need to go too.

7) Demand she takes a polygraph, the reason the A ended (if it indeed has), may be just because he refused to leave his wife and dumped your WW (very common), also this may not be her first rodeo and there could be others before POSOM, right after him and/or even right now.

8) Demand she goes to IC with someone who specializes in infidelity (very important), to find out her whys.

If she refuses to do any of the above just file for D and have her served without warning, D typically takes a long time and you can always stop it if she comes around and starts doing the heavy lifting to restore the M she destroyed.

If full exposure and D papers don't shock her back to reality, then nothing will, life's too short and you deserve much better. Of course if you realize this is a deal-breaker for you and decide to D that's ok too, 5 years when you were undergoing surgeries and probably needed her the most will be very tough to overcome (not impossible) even with a fully remorseful WW doing all necessary work (your WW isn't even remorseful yet) and at least for me it would certainly be too much, but it's your life and that's your decision to make.

Keep posting frequently, the collective wisdom of SI could help you go through this difficult situation, we've "seen" it play out THOUSANDS of times here and in other forums, every case is different but cheaters typically follow a similar script.

Buffer posted 4/15/2021 01:26 AM

Brother, how about a bit of respect from your WW towards you.
Start IC for yourself.
You canít heal without discussing her five year A. It isnít too painful for her to discuss, it is just that for five years she was in unicorn fart land. And this canít be taken away from her. As then she will realise what she is. Just another cheating WW. Who is so selfish that she canít help you heel.
Have her move to a separate room and start the 180 now. You need to put yourself at #1.
Get her to read helping your spouse heal from your affair.
Is she canít even do that. There is no hope for your sanity.
One day at a time.

steadychevy posted 4/15/2021 07:11 AM

westofboston, I'm so sorry for the reason you're here. There are few things (if any) as destructive to a marital relationship as cheating. It, however, is a very good place to have found. Had I found SI years before I did my later life might have turned out quite different.

My XWW committed adultery for 4 years with a person she supervised at work. The opposite of your WW and her AP. They travelled a lot for work and blanketed the province (Alberta) with sex. Sex in one of our pastures and in my home.

We had just celebrated our 25th anniversary. I was the love of my XWW's life and the best thing that ever happened to her. We had 3 wonderful girls with 2 in university and the oldest just graduated. My XWW was excited about the anniversary and we celebrated and hosted a luncheon after church with our church family. Then she saw him. Maybe she saw him before our anniversary. Anyway she pursued him.

My XWW was 45 and I was 51. It seemed things were going off the rails after that. I challenged her but she used many tactics, all lies, to counter. When your born again Christian wife swears before God do you believe her? She was in charge of a very large project at work and under a lot of stress and he was on her team. After the project was finished things did get better with us but the adultery continued for 2 plus years. We did a lot of great things during that time - lots of vacation time, kids grown, etc. Still, I was uneasy.

I retired from my professional work and started living our long term, joint major life goal. We moved and apparently my XWW ended it with him by moving. She set up a remote office, though, for the same employer and was in contact with him over the years following through work. Poly indicates there was no more sex after the move.


Adultery started in mid 2002 (maybe before but not later).

PA ended mid year 2006.

DDay1: September 1, 2013. 11 years after adultery started and 7 years after it ended.

Separation: September, 2017. I'm 66 years old. I didn't start healing until we separated.

Divorced: April, 2020. I'm almost 69.

My XWW never did what I needed her to do. TT. Lies, I don't know, I can't remember. No remorse. Regret at getting caught. I had a fairly short list of must haves to consider R. Never got them.

I think she thought I would be mad (very mad) for a while and then I would get over it. After all it was so long ago. Like you, westofboston, it wasn't so long ago for me. It was right now. It's brand new pain. Pain so severe I thought it would kill me and hoped it would.

We could have lived very comfortably as a couple. We were living our dream. We were on the cusp of achieving our major life goal when she started the adultery.

We are divorced. Neither of us can live high on the hog. There will always be contact with her. We have 3 married daughters and soon to be 10 grandchildren. Christmas, birthdays, etc. I rent the land she got in the divorce from her. BUT, I don't see her face everyday across the table. I don't see her face very much.

I just wanted you to know there are those of us out there in a similar situation to what you find yourself in. We are not the only two.

It is up to you to decide if you want to try to R or D. I wanted to see if I could R. I don't feel like I was given the chance. It takes two and the burden is really on the WS to provide the environment for the attempt. I may not have been able to R but she gave me nothing to work with. It appears to me your WW isn't giving you anything either.

I wondered if my daughters were mine. They have facial similarities to my family. I found out my XWW committed adultery while we were seriously dating and when engaged. The poly indicated she hadn't had sex other than with me and the POS. DNA would confirm that but I haven't done it. If my daughters wanted to do the 23andme thing I would do it.

You've had good advice. If you can't eat solid food (I couldn't) get meal replacement drinks, drink lots of water but minimal alcohol. If you have problems sleeping (I did) go to your doctor and get a sleep aid prescription.

Sorry this is so long. I'm sorry for your need to be here. Stay here. In spite of the bickering everyone here wants you to heal and find your path. Stay with us.

Stevesn posted 4/15/2021 07:29 AM

Steady thank you for bringing us back to the purpose of this thread. Your post was heartfelt. WeatOfBoston I hope you read what steady has given you, over again a few times.

You canít reconcile with a WW who is not giving you what you need as a safe environment in which to do so. Itís a waste of time. It will ultimately fail. She has to let go of the outcome and give you complete honesty, information and empathy.

Without those things there is nothing to work with.

25yearsin posted 4/15/2021 07:55 AM

You said, the affair ended only because he retired. If I was a betting man, I'd have to go all in on the main reason it ended was because he is married and wasn't willing to leave his wife. So when he retired he severed ties with your wife.
I'm sorry that your here. But you'll get alot of good advise here.

Booyah posted 4/15/2021 08:13 AM

Regrets in life are mainly about the things we didn't do.

Your wife had a FIVE year affair.

You find out years later.

So now you're laying there bleeding out from a stab wound SHE CAUSED.

You're desperately in need of help because this is killing you.

You look her in the eyes, YOUR WIFE, pleading for her to HELP YOU, and what does she say/do?

She (your WIFE) the woman who is responsible for stabbing you and making you bleed out, looks you in the eyes and says, "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS ANYMORE"????

Listen brother, we all know this sucks and you certainly never envisioned yourself being in this situation (especially at your age).

Back to the regrets in life.

Can you really live with yourself (and this woman) one day let alone weeks/months/years knowing what SHE'S DONE TO YOU, and when you cried out for help she did THE WORST THING ANYONE could do.....she SLAPPED YOUR HAND AWAY AND SAID "SHUT UP I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT ANYMORE"??

This isn't a wife....someone who loves you and cares about you and will do ANYTHING to protect you and to help you when you're in need and that will nurture and protect your heart.

NO......this woman is a MONSTER!!!

She's shown you who she REALLY IS and you are REFUSING to believe her.

Is this really how you want to live the rest of your life?

So you'll lose some assets.
So you'll find yourself starting a new journey that you didn't envision at this juncture.

Have you really TRULY thought about this??
Staying with her??

Have you closed your eyes and pictured yourself a yr from now, five yrs from now, sitting next to her and looking over at her, knowing that this woman (who claims she loves you) had a five YEAR affair (living another separate life while she was supposed to be married to you) and when you found out YEARS LATER, and you desperately needed help from the ONLY person who could help you she was NOT THERE FOR YOU!!

Not only that she treated you (her so called HUSBAND) like a little toddler and was told to "shut up....we're not talking about this anymore"!!!!


This is who this woman is.

Whether you want to believe it or not this is your reality.

So....knowing what you know, this is NO longer about her, IT'S ABOUT YOU, and more importantly what are you going to do moving forward??

Can you truly look yourself in the mirror every day, seeing the man reflecting back at you, and live with yourself knowing that you let the woman who destroyed your marriage and killed you and didn't SHOW ANY REMORSE or LIFT A FINGER to try and help you HER HUSBAND try to heal???

That the man in the mirror (you) was ok with her not even willing to talk to you about it??

My friend, you think you're in pain now??

Every single day forward, the pain is going to get worse and WORSE and it will NOT be due to anything that she's doing but it will be because of what you aren't willing to do and that's to take the action that you KNOW IN YOUR HEART YOUR SOUL AND YOUR SPIRIT IS CRYING OUT FOR YOU TO DO and you're IGNORING it EVERY.SINGLE.DAY.

You think you're in pain now....think again.

You have a lying, cheating, unremorseful monster making your life a living hell and you're going to lie to yourself EVERY SINGLE DAY because kicking this evil woman to the curb and out of your life is more painful than living this nightmare every day??

As painful as this is to hear she does NOT love you. Her ACTIONS (nonactions) say she doesn't.

However this doesn't matter!!!

The question is do you love yourself?

Remember, you only have ONE LIFE.

The sand is running out of that hourglass pretty fast.

Time is the most PRECIOUS thing you or any of us have!!

Is this how you want to spend your remaining time??

You do NOT have one foot in the grave, nobody knows when their time is up, but with the time you have left how do want to spend it?

Trust me, years from now, when you're laying in bed looking back at your life this is what you'll be thinking about.

The fork in the road.

See you can't do a damn thing to change anything that lead up to this point in time.

HOWEVER you can do something about which direction you go now and this my friend is the period of time that you will reflect on time and time and time again.

From now to the time when you've come to the end of your life.

This is where the REGRET will be.

That you knew in your heart what you wanted to do but you didn't take action. WHY?

Here's why.....F.E.A.R.

That simple.

Fear kept you from doing what you wanted to do and know you needed to do and the HORRIBLE TRAVESTY of the entire situation is you'll be kicking yourself, HATING yourself, DESPERATELY wishing you could have a do over and unfortunately it will be TOO LATE!!

So right now it's not TOO LATE.

You can open your eyes and realize that you don't have to have all the pain of the regret you'll be experiencing in the future if (and ONLY IF) you're willing to face your FEAR.

You want her to be honest with you, right?

Well that ship has sailed.

How about you stop lying to yourself because at the end of the day that's all that matters.

Your future well being is in your hands NOT hers.

Nobody is saying this is easy.

At the end of the day being able to look at ourselves in the mirror and liking what we see is all that matters.

Robert22205https posted 4/15/2021 13:30 PM

She's had years to convince herself that she was entitled to cheat. Among other things, in deciding whether to remain with her, you need to know if you were her Plan B and if the OM dumped her.

IMO your wife believes that you will not divorce her. Therefore, she's taking the path of least resistance for her (with no thought about your feelings).

In order for her to take your questions/needs seriously, she has to believe (really believe) that you are divorcing her. And the only chance of avoiding divorce is for her to answer all questions and do whatever you need to heal. Fake it if you have to.

Actions like separating bank accounts, changing your life insurance beneficiary, meeting with your attorney are all evidence to prove to her that you are serious about divorcing her - unless she wakes up.

If you can't effectively verbally convey your needs to her, then write down a list of things.

Inform her R is not guaranteed but any further withholding of information (regardless of how intimate) will guarantee divorce. Why? because you can't R until you know all the facts.

Immediately, insist she read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda J. MacDonald.

It sells used on amazon for $2. It's a short read (1 day is more than enough time).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 1:32 PM, April 15th (Thursday)]

MyShovel posted 4/15/2021 14:29 PM

Welcome, brother. I am so sorry you are here, but you're in good company. There are a bunch of us in the "found out years later" club. I found out 27yrs after the fact, and am about 4yrs from D-Day. Some good advice in this thread. I can't tell you what a remorseful spouse looks like, but if you want to know what years of limbo/rug-sweeping does to a BS and the relationship, several of us are experts here. For now, there are a couple of things you can do that are completely within your control:

1. Improve/maintain your health (as much as possible). Force yourself into a routine of healthy eating and exercise. Sleep is crucial as well. If you are having trouble (and I'm sure you are) try some Melatonin or see your Dr. for some help.

2. Get consults with 2 or 3 lawyers to see what a divorce would look like in your specific situation. These are free or relatively cheap and will give you a realistic picture should things go that way. Bringing a list of income/assets/liabilities will ensure these meetings are productive. This is just information-gathering should you decide to file down the road.

3. Don't waste time with a subpar therapist. Fire him/her and try another. There are a ton of idiots in the field (just like any other profession) and at 64 you have a lot more life experience than many of them. The best will have a waiting list, but get on it in case an opening arises.

WoB, I think one of the unique aspects of the long-hidden affair is the indignation of the WS at having to account for their past behavior. It's as if an "I'm not that person anymore" should be enough to resolve the issue, and seems to be a default for many. That attitude is beyond our ability to control. She will either pull her head out of her rear-end and realize the true impact of what she has done, or she will begin to resent you for not "getting over it".

WalkingHome posted 4/15/2021 16:14 PM

There is no pain worse that never ending pain.

Not knowing is never ending pain.

DNA test the kids.

Poly the wife.

Divorce is needed.

Westway posted 4/16/2021 12:07 PM

At 64, Iím now at a place I never thought imaginable and a future that seems so uncertain.

The real question for yourself is: do you stay with a woman who obviously has no respect for you, no remorse for what she did to you, and who thinks she has you over a barrel financially because now it is "too late" for you to move on from her?

Or do you say "To hell with that!" and divorce her and move out and into a lower standard of living; where you won't have as much but you can live free and as your own man for the rest of your life... a man who can look at himself in the mirror every morning and respect the man looking back at him, and know that he stood up for himself and refused to be a chump for an ungrateful, deceitful woman?

[This message edited by Westway at 12:09 PM, April 16th (Friday)]

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