Newest Member: Loyalandbetrayed

Just Found Out :
After 43 years....

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HouseOfPlane ( Member #45739) posted at 10:38 PM on Friday, December 4th, 2020

Tough story, Dan. Wow.

Got to say, I’ve seen similar, though. Married for 40+ years, then one of them just up and says, “Nope, I’m done.”

The good news (?) is that while it’s much more painful at first to get dropped into a pot of boiling water than to be swimming in there while it slowly heats to boiling, you get some instant clarity that you wouldn’t get otherwise.

I’m glad you didn’t do anything drastic and irreversible, shipmate. Take care of yourself. Single guy in his golden years? You’ll be beating them off with a stick once the word gets out.

DDay 1986: R'd, it was hard, hard work.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?”
― Mary Oliver

posts: 2718   ·   registered: Nov. 25th, 2014
id 8614413
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Talisman ( Member #75398) posted at 6:33 AM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

Dan, thanks for the information.

I am starting to form a clearer picture of what seems to have happened.

You both are high energy people as was, it seems, her very first boyfriend.

It sounds like all three are good looking.

She seems high energy and always needing something to be happening/going on.

At the same time she liked life in France (and as per your comments, never really left France).

You went through some pretty serious illnesses with cancer that would normally obliterate most men's libido and energy.

While sex may not have been her top priority, she did value energy and adventure, and on one of her frequent trips to France, found another adventure partner to do it with. The fact that she knew him and he was an ex-boyfriend, made it easier to happen. It was also very convenient in that it was in line with her wanting to make France her base and where her mother is.

In short, it was as exciting as anything else and it was very CONVENIENT.

Now ...

What is really lacking here (as I said before) is real love! Morals! Vows! Having sex on a beach in Corsica and making love several times during the week (even though it hurt her?) is not love. Helping your husband out in a marriage where you both help each other out is not love. Selfishly, putting your wants first ahead of your spouse is not love (one might argue that you might have done the same too).

Acting on these wants and desires while breaking marital vows might be expected from a very attractive lady who is well on the way to being 70 but looks younger, is high energy and is (I'll say it), French! But it is also selfish, immoral and ugly in many ways. The stunt pulled with the trip to Martinique was extremely deceitful and starts to now show the ugliness in your wife's character.

And you now know, after 43 years, that there is an extremely ugly and distasteful side to your wife - it may have always been there or it might be something that evolved over time, but nevertheless, you are well rid of her if this is the type of person that she is. I am not saying that she will do this to the POS (simply because of the ages involved), but we now know that she might and would in the right circumstances!

As everyone is telling you, this is one of the most difficult things anyone has to deal with (like someone close dying). What makes it worse is the callous way in which she did it and feeding you the usual bullshit of "I still love you but in a different way" rather than "I am a selfish bitch that is very ugly on the inside and will do what I want to do regardless of who else gets hurt". I suspect the POSOM is similar to her and maybe they are well suited to each other. He will find some younger woman to screw with while with her AND she will not mind because she is getting what she selfishly wants.

You, on the other hand, will find someone better and more loving to be with. You are a lot more experienced now, are set financially and are active and attractive. Your "picker" is better now so you will be able to pick the right partner this time when she comes along and will enjoy yourself. In the meantime, of course, it is going to hurt. Doing the 180, seeing to your physical and mental well being is the thing to do. She may miss you, but do not take her back if she comes crawling. Make it a clean break.

Good luck my friend.

posts: 72   ·   registered: Sep. 11th, 2020   ·   location: UK
id 8614457
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 Dan90254 (original poster Member #75925) posted at 3:28 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

4 days after DDay we had a facetime conversation even though she claims she hates that. During that conversation she said she didn’t want to divorce and I agreed. That was on 11/07. At that time she also said that she didn’t want to go back to the life she was living here in South Cal. I didn’’t understand or didn’t want to understand what she really meant but when she was here on the 25th she again said that and I realized that she meant...living with me. I lost my temper and threw all her clothes from our bedroom balcony onto the parking lot. She moved out to our son’s condo which is next door. Since then, that was last monday, we talked again but we also decided that a divorce was inevitable. We saw an attorney moderator on Thursday and started with the paperwork.

The latest development occurred last night. She received a telephone call from the person taking care of her mother in her absence. Her sister, her sister’s husband and her mother have all tested positive for Covid. I don’t know how this will impact our divorce

posts: 50   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2020   ·   location: Southern California
id 8614479
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KatieKat ( Member #16690) posted at 4:24 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

It should expedite things! Best of luck to you, Dan.

one of the lucky ones

posts: 272   ·   registered: Oct. 20th, 2007
id 8614488
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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 4:32 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

I have been thinking a lot about this situation and how best we can help you.

The typical infidelity shared here is a couple between 28-55 with 2-3 kids, the unpaid home and debt to their eyeballs. When we get a youngish couple – maybe even unmarried – with no combined debt and no kids dealing with an ongoing affair we tend to suggest the betrayed partner cuts his losses and moves on. When the affair is over or inactive or the WS ends it then many here (as can be seen on how the site is structured) suggest the relationship can be reconciled. Although children are IMHO never a good reason to remain married then I do believe that they can be the catalyst for why one would want to attempt reconciliation.

But I don’t recall a single poster ever having suggested that reconciling is possible while the affair is active. If she were to tell you that she has ended it with Dr. Clouseau you would have a shot, but she hasn’t. She’s told you she wants to be married but not the way you were married. That is not the same as saying the affair is over.

Then there is a school of thought that says that once a woman has an affair and is open about it, she’s already committed to leaving the marriage. It’s called an exit affair. I’m not so sure about how decided she is, but I am 100% of the view that a) reconciliation isn’t possible when the affair is active and b) most times it pays to listen to what the WS is saying, and maybe even give them what they ask for. Note I didn’t say give then what they want – its give them what they ask for. Sometimes what we ask for isn’t exactly what we expect or even what we want.

In your instance we have a couple entering the Golden Years. Worked hard all your life, comfortable life and good times ahead, only now she wants to change it.

I do believe your wife is committed to this. I do belief that the “standard” actions we suggest terminating infidelity won’t work here. I don’t think exposure will change, I think the OP isn’t breaking any written ethical law or rule of his association, I don’t think WW family will see this as wrong… I see that the efficient and good tools we nearly always suggest will work here.

What that leaves us with IMHO is to seek the best divorce settlement you can get.

The key here might be to detach emotionally from the business aspect of the process. You about 66-67? Realistically you have about 15-20 good active years ahead. Maybe more depending on health. Then maybe some fewer active years (I can say that because I’m fast reaching your age!). You want to fund those years, so you are comfortable and don’t need to bag groceries to supplement your half-pension. If you live to be 120 you want those years spent sitting at the 19th hole talking to the sons of the sons of your departed friends, and not worrying about your next meal.

I try to be realistic about divorce. I know you could demand everything and refuse everything and spend $$$$$$ on legal fees. I am also pretty certain that the likely result will be you getting about half the value of your assets, minus half the amount of debt. I am not going to suggest you go for more than you are reasonably owed.

But… There are some things that you should consider. Your statement about her getting half your pension made me stop and think if there might be a misunderstanding. Your statement about inheritance also made be stumble…

It finally clicked when I read you were using one attorney and a mediator. The mediator’s job is to be impartial and find a solution both are happy with. That solution could lean to either side… Basically the mediator finds a solution that is more-or-less fair that both agree to.

Half of everything does not equate to getting half of every single item. It’s not like you take a chainsaw to the vehicle so you get the AU and she gets the DI of the Audi. Half of everything is the mathematical process of placing value on everything and then dividing it in a fair way.

Like inheritance: Did your WW ever use marital money (in California ALL money earned by either spouse is considered marital money…) to pay for maintenance, taxes, council-fees… for the condo? How about furniture? THAT could be considered marital cost. In some states a possible rise in the price of property from day of inheritance can be considered marital property…

Her company: Like probably all travel companies it’s in the dumps right now, but generally divorce doesn’t always look at NOW. They look at the last couple of years. This is done to prevent a partner from hiding income/profit in preparation for divorce. Despite the present low then everything indicates an EXPLOSION in travel once the Covid vaccine becomes available. In fact – try renting a summer house in the south of France 2021 and you will already see they are getting booked… What would be a realistic valuation of her company?

Your wife wants to get away. She has no interest in owning half a sofa or a table seating for 12 in California, or a Volvo or Toyota. You can fairly value the “fixed” or hard-to-transfer assets at the lower range of a fair market price.

Your pension: How long does that go on? Many pensions (if not all) are limited to your lifetime. Some end with your demise, some might allow the legal wife/widow/widower get part of it. In other words, if your pension is 2000 per month and she get’s 1000 then if you pass away it goes down to 0 or maybe half of what a living dependent might get. It might be to your advantage to settle for a cash-sum up-front. You could do a present-value calculation. They can be rather morbid because you are more-or-less betting against your life-expectancy:

If you are 67 -> average age for men is about 80 = 13 years = (13x12 payments =146).

Your pension = X

Half your pension = 1/2X = 146x 0.5X = 73X

Getting it paid up-front rather than monthly (and therefore being able to invest it), getting rid of conversion rates USD to EUR and wiring cost…

Getting rid of the risk of you being run over by a golf-cart in 2021…

45X might be a fair valuation. Nothing wrong with offering her a lump-sum of 30X. That cash can then be found in her getting both the family vehicles, or a larger assessment of the family home, OR her keeping her company AND any claim you have in her condo…

Get where I’m going? It’s not being unfair, but rather playing within the rules but to your advantage.

I would always – even if using a mediator – have my own attorney to go over and evaluate any offer or suggestion made.

[This message edited by Bigger at 10:34 AM, December 5th (Saturday)]

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 9858   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8614491
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 Dan90254 (original poster Member #75925) posted at 4:56 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

Thats a lot to digest. I will read it over several times and answer the best I can.

But one point I can right away.

My pension is a Los Angeles City pension and the 50% is defined by something called the Brown act. The percentage allocated to each spouse in case of a divorce is determined by a formula but in my case because we were married years before I started in my career and I retired while we were still married she will get 50%. Non negotiable.

The value of her business right now is zero. She wants to keep working and build it back up and sell it to her partner.

I will consider hiring an attorney privately.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2020   ·   location: Southern California
id 8614495
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steadychevy ( Member #42608) posted at 5:18 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

You indicate you're retired, Dan. Does that mean you've established your pensions?

I divorced after I had established my pensions. I can't remember the legal term for that which I should given what my profession was. I chose that my XWW (just wife at the time - before DDay) would receive 66 2/3 (and with a 10 year guarantee)of my pension if I would predecease her. It's likely I would since I'm male and 6 years older. That choice is written in stone in my jurisdiction. If I die before my XWW she will get 66 2/3 of my pension. To her credit she doesn't like that she would benefit from my death. I didn't need any portion of her pension should she predecease me.

In my jurisdiction pensions are marital. I am not a lawyer anywhere and where you live in particular. There are different laws. Check with a lawyer in your area. Private and public pensions legally are subject to averaging on divorce no matter the cause where I live. In my separation agreement my XWW gave up the right to average our pensions thereby my pension is unaffected. Her lawyer was strongly advising her to not agree to that and she had to sign a document that he had thus advised her. You can make this part of your negotiations.

As Bigger stated, the easiest route for the mediator is to split everything according to formula and get agreement to do so. You can negotiate.

My XWW's physical adultery was over 7 years before DDay1. DDay1 was in the 36th year off marriage. Just because the kids are all adults, you are in your "golden years" and my XWW ended it doesn't mean the marriage should or even could be reconciled. I don't need to eat a shit sandwich every day for the rest of my life which would be undoubtedly shortened by doing so. What can you really live with?

ETA: I just read your post after posting this, Dan. Apparently you believe your pension will automatically be split. Could be. I'd check with a lawyer anyway. If she can't sign that away you may be able to negotiate something different anyway. Legally, my XWW was entitled to the average of our 2 pensions. She agreed not to do that. She got all of the RRSP (401k equivalent) which would have been added into the calculation. Not sharing my pensions with her was worth more if I live long enough and she knew it.

[This message edited by steadychevy at 11:23 AM, December 5th (Saturday)]

BH(me)70; XWW 64; M 42 yrs
DDay1-01/09/13;DDay2-26/10/13;DDay3-19/12/13;DDay4-21/01/14
LTA-09/02-06/06? OM - COW
"dates" w/3 lovers post engagement;ONS w/stranger post commitment, lies, lies, lies
Separated 23/09/2017; D 16/03/2020

posts: 4658   ·   registered: Feb. 27th, 2014   ·   location: Canada
id 8614499
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Talisman ( Member #75398) posted at 5:48 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

Dan, I am slightly confused again.

After DDay, she told you that she did not want to get divorced but she didn't want to go back to her old life. I understand both these statements.

What, when you met on the 25th made you think that she did not want to live with you in particular? Did she say that ? Or is that something you surmise? Did she say she wanted to continue seeing her POSOM while being married to you (since she said she did not want a divorce)?

posts: 72   ·   registered: Sep. 11th, 2020   ·   location: UK
id 8614505
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 Dan90254 (original poster Member #75925) posted at 6:52 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

She kept saying that she did not want to live “ like before” and she also said that yes she enjoys her life in France to which he is a part ( no shit). She did not to rush into a messy divorce and thought i could live here as usual knowing that she was banging someone else. No deal.

I called the pension dept and the lady was adamant : 50%.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2020   ·   location: Southern California
id 8614508
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src9043 ( Member #75367) posted at 7:07 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

Dan, regarding your pension. I mentioned this idea to you before and I think it is worth investigating if you could go back to work. If you returned to work for the City of L.A., your pension would be suspended. If you then continued to work and subsequently retire, I would think that the terms of your pension would then have to again be established at that time. She would still be entitled to about half your pension but I would think that you would be able to extinguish the survivability element at that point. Thus, your overall pension would be higher because of the non-survivability aspect, and she gets nothing upon your passing.

[This message edited by src9043 at 1:14 PM, December 5th (Saturday)]

posts: 411   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2020
id 8614512
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oldtruck ( Member #62540) posted at 8:55 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

pension lady is not a lawyer, judge, or court. you need to talk

to your attorney.

posts: 1383   ·   registered: Feb. 2nd, 2018
id 8614527
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Talisman ( Member #75398) posted at 9:09 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

So she wanted you to live in America, married to her, while she had a life in France. Did she honestly think you would agree to this? What on Earth was going through her mind at the time? Keep the marriage and maybe hook up with you every now and then but also have the POS in her life too???

I agree with those who are saying just check with a good lawyer about the pension (no matter how sure you or the pension lady is).

Do you think she loves you?

Do you think she loves the POSOM?

(Remember I originally questioned if love was a factor in any of this or even if she has the ability to really love someone).

posts: 72   ·   registered: Sep. 11th, 2020   ·   location: UK
id 8614530
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RealityBlows ( Member #41108) posted at 9:31 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

CALPERS member here. Division of retirement funds is a little complicated and is handled by specialized QDRO law firms that work with your personal or joint attorney(s). My experience was that everyone involved strove for equity. It seemed overwhelming at first but, it all worked out smoothly and much easier than I imagined. QDRO handled everything. All the paperwork, communication with all involved financial institutions, etc., for a reasonable fee. There was not much I had to do except sign a couple documents. Everything acquired and commingled during the marriage-that wasn’t inherited, was split neatly down the middle. Tangible items we worked out amicably and without pettiness. No use spending 10Gs fighting over the espresso machine. If you can keep the acrimony under control it makes things so much easier. Your objective is to make a clean break. No revenge schemes. No parting shots. Just get through the D with as little drama as possible EVEN IF that requires you to swallow a little pride or bite your tongue. If she’s cooperating, do what you must to keep her in a cooperative frame of mind without-of course, compromising yourself.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 3:37 PM, December 5th (Saturday)]

posts: 647   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8614532
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Buster123 ( Member #65551) posted at 9:38 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

At this point your M is a sham and there's nothing to be saved here, she's still in an active A and refuses to end it, that's all you need to know, like you said "divorce is inevitable", move full steam ahead, consult 2 or 3 attorneys (knowledge is power) and keep the eye on the ball: "getting out of infidelity", life's too short, you deserve so much better than a proven cheater and liar.

posts: 2408   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018
id 8614535
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 Dan90254 (original poster Member #75925) posted at 10:54 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

And the last lie is...

Yesterday she had a meetiing with her partner. When she came back I asked her how the meeting went and she said that they have enough money to last another 6 months with no pay for the both of us. They ve done that in the past ( 9/11 and 2008 crisis) to save the business. She then added that she is going to work hard again to re build the agency if the economy picks up again in 2021 and then she would sell her share to her partner and would give me half. So I asked her if her partner was ok with that and she said yes.

Well this morning while on bike I had a doubt , after all she has been lying for 2 years, and I called her partner. He said that they never talked about a buy out and that at 73 he certainly wasn't interested in buying her 50%.

[This message edited by Dan90254 at 4:56 PM, December 5th (Saturday)]

posts: 50   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2020   ·   location: Southern California
id 8614542
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fareast ( Member #61555) posted at 11:19 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

As Gomer Pyle would say:

“Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!” A lying liar lies!

Get an attorney and protect yourself.

Never bother with things in your rearview mirror. Your best days are on the road in front of you.

posts: 2794   ·   registered: Nov. 24th, 2017
id 8614543
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 Dan90254 (original poster Member #75925) posted at 11:50 PM on Saturday, December 5th, 2020

Bigger,

Our finances are simple. Each 2 IRAs , hers total $130,000 more than mine. 1 living trust with 3 mutual funds and our house. 1 checking/savings account. No debts.

Our furniture was mostly bought at IKEA and the art on the walls come from my parents. Some originals. No jewelry of any value.

I drive a 2017 Ford Mustang and she has a 1998 Toyota Rav4. She was leasing a MZ prior going to France and wisely did not renew the lease last January.

If she applies for SS now she will get $2340/month. If she waits until she turns 70, $3440 ( I think). My City pension gross is $7000/month.

The attorney told us that the SS monthly payments are untouchable and that she will also get 50% of my pension. Total for her $5840 , for me $3500 but...and this where I almost passed out the attorney said that she wouldn't have to compensate me ( my wife would have agreed) because I would be living rent free in her half of the house.

We went in there agreeing that we both should come out even.

We want to keep the house as much as we can and maybe leave it to our son to use it. Our son is 39 going on 17 unfortunately.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2020   ·   location: Southern California
id 8614550
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RealityBlows ( Member #41108) posted at 12:17 AM on Sunday, December 6th, 2020

In 2010 that disparity between a SS contributor and a non contributor gov pensioner was challenged in court in an attempt to balance the disparity with a lesser division to the wife from the pension fund but, it failed in both the trial and appellate courts. There’s just no getting around that until Cali changes the community property laws on their end. Totally sucks. I got burned on that also.

posts: 647   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8614555
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 Dan90254 (original poster Member #75925) posted at 1:15 AM on Sunday, December 6th, 2020

Realityblows,

I’m not part of Calpers.

But thanks I’ll bring it up in my next attorney appointment.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2020   ·   location: Southern California
id 8614564
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 Dan90254 (original poster Member #75925) posted at 1:15 AM on Sunday, December 6th, 2020

Realityblows,

I’m not part of Calpers.

But thanks I’ll bring it up in my next attorney appointment.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2020   ·   location: Southern California
id 8614565
Topic is Sleeping.
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