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Been a rough week never thought I’d experience this kind of pain...been married for 11 years with 2 young kids(7 & 9). So about 4 years ago my wife and I started swinging with our best friend couple. All got highly intoxicated 1 night and went skinny dipping in hot tub. Each couple messed around but only with their spouses. Me and the other guy started chatting about it later and said it was fun and talked about sharing our wives. Fast forward to next time we went out and same thing happened and we did a full swap all same room. Was a lot of fun, everyone enjoyed it. This continued for prob a year. We laid out rules..no kissing, no feelings, all 4 people there at once, etc. well we all had kids and couldn’t get together that often so we started having the 2 wives drive to the other husbands house while kids were sleeping. Things were going good. Sex life with my wife was awesome and got to have sex with another women1/month or so. Everyone got to have a few 3somes, things like that. During this time everyone was snap chatting pics and vids and sexting with the other spouses etc. Then it started going down hill, everyone but myself wanted to keep ramping it up more and more so it was happening almost every week. The sex between me and my wife had died off to where we were prob having more sex with the other couple than with each other.. I tried to explain it to my wife and slow things down again but she just kept saying “it’s all for fun. You were the one that wanted it first”. So we slowed down and I would say not tonight whenever anyone asked about swapping on a certain day. Then once covid hit in April my wife asked about swapping and I said no I was too worried about covid. We were both working from home, not seeing any family, not going out unless it was emergency, etc and she wants to risk it all for a quick fuck. I said no, and that kind of pissed everyone off as I had been saying no a lot. The other wife said it was obvious I was not as into it anymore so we just agreed to end it to keep the friendship good. I was fine with that and thought everyone else seemed like it too. Until I find out my wife and the guy met up about 15 times between April and now without either of their spouses knowing. I had been going into work 1 time per week and just happened to look at my security camera one day while there and my wife was not home. I had just talked to her and she said she had conf call and had to let me go. Just out of curiosity I checked cam next week she was gone at same time and came back about same time. 2 weeks in a row. So I stuck a gps in her car that next week. Comes to that day and she leaves same time again. I call her, she doesn’t answer but calls me back in 2 min. I said “what are u doing it sounds like your out of breath”. She lied and said she just ran up the stairs to get to her phone. I went home that night and got gps out of her car. Sure enough it went to my ex friends house. I went in and asked my wife if the other wife knows. She said knows what,what are you talking about?. Eventually she came clean and the other wife did not know about it either, but she did admit to 3-4 3somes during that time with the other couple. She also had been kissing the other man as well. I’m devastated she lied to my face I don’t know how many times. I had even asked her a few times if she was still sexting with him because I had thought she had been hiding her phone from me but she said she wasn’t and that I was being very paranoid about everything. I never even considered they were still fucking I had told her how depressed I had been lately and how it seemed like we were growing apart but she didn’t think anything was wrong with our M. These were all lies. And then I was betrayed by my former best friend and his wife as well. What started as a little fun has turned out to be the biggest mistake of my life and has potentially ruined our marriage(trying to reconcile) and ruined a friendship.. she claims there were no feelings involve(why are they now kissing then?) and she seems very remorseful now. She can’t give me a good reason of why it continued after everyone quit. She said it just overtook her and she really enjoyed it and didn’t want it to end. I don’t know what to do. The sex was that great with him she would lie to me for it and put our marriage in jeopardy as well as lose her best friend from it.

[This message edited by Greenman at 4:03 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

Well, you let the genie out of the bottle...

So it seems she is not taking responsibility and pushing everything back off on you? I dunno man. How will she ever be satisfied with monogamy now? That strange d is too good to pass up now. She is no longer the same woman you married.

This is above my pay grade brother. I have no advice on how you can pull this plane out of the nosedive it's in.

Swinging seems to have such a high rate of failure. I have never understood it. But when you have rules set, they should be completely followed. As Westway, that "...genie (is) out of the bottle". How do you put it back in? Wiser people will come and help. I understand your pain. You have been heard.

I’m more of the opinion that a spouse can agree to try new things like swinging, threesome etc... within agreed upon rules and honesty, and later on desist and go back to monogamy.

The other spouse always have the option of breaking the relationship, D or whatever and pursue whatever he/she likes.

Your WW has been lying to you, has broken your trust and it is normal for you to be hurt and upset.

If you ever want to consider R, your WW will have to rebuilt trust in your M.

Also, the OM is proven to be untrustworthy. What else is your WW and OM lying about? You should get tested for STD. You don’t really know if your WW or the OM/OW were involved with other people.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 2:19 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

Eventually she came clean and the other wife did not know about it either, but she did admit to 3-4 3somes during that time with the other couple.

I find out my wife and the guy met up about 15 times between April and now without either of their spouses knowing.

Greenman

So the other wife cheated by participating in several threesomes during the forbidden time. But the other wife didn’t know about additional times your wife and her husband got together.

What do you want? The way I see it is that you have two choices:

1. You get back into the swing of things (pun intended).

You could demand several threesomes with the wives so that the other couple and your wife can make it up to you. Also have at lest 15 twosomes with the other wife. During this time the other husband can’t touch your wife. He can watch the kids.

2. You put a permanent stop to the whole thing.

You situation is quite unique because you can truthfully say “it’s not the sex it’s because you lied to me. I can’t trust you again.”

Your wife obviously thinks that it isn’t a big deal. If you just mope around and things go back to normal your actions will confirm that it isn’t a big deal.

She will continue to think it isn’t unless the faces consequences.

At the very least you need to mention divorce to make the point. Do that even if you don’t want a divorce, Your value is stability and security. If she can do anything without risking that why wouldn’t she cheat again?

Regardless if you choose 1 or 2 you should forbid all texting between your wife and the other man.

[This message edited by Michigan at 3:14 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

Some recent research indicates that about 92 percent or greater of open marriages fail. I don't know what the rate is for the new term "polyamory" (altho this often seems to tilt in favor of women's prerogatives).

In any case, the odds don't seem great. Probably because of the power differential inherent in the arrangement. Women will almost always be the beneficiary of an open marriage or swinging scenario, while husbands tend not to fare as well. Do with this information what you will.

She said it just overlook her and she really enjoyed it and don’t want it to end.

She's telling you straight up. I would believe her. She's signaling this will probably continue with him or other men.

It doesn't seem like your wife really wants to be in a monogamous relationship with you. She's got a taste for a different way and wants to keep doing it more and more, with more and more promiscuity. You can limp along in that situation for a little while, but probably not for very long.

If you cut the cord and make your boundaries clear, you will still have some modicum of self respect and can maybe rebuild your self esteem from there. And then foreswear any woman who wants to engage in this in the future.

I did demand that my wife get tested in which she did. I put a NC in for the OP and his wife(her former best friend who will not talk to her as my wife tried to reach out at first). I told her I had spoke to an attorney about D which I have- and kicked her out of the house. The kids only want to stay with her right now which is tough on me. She has asked the kids to stay with dad as he needs you right now but they don’t want to. Her and the kids have stayed 1 night she slept is them and they are staying again tonight. For the person suggesting 3somes and 1 on 1 with the other wife- I don’t want that right now and don’t feel that will help anything. I reached out to the other wife a bit to confirm she knew everything and her husband(my x best friend) immediately texted me and told me they are trying to work things out and not to talk to her. I basically told him to fuck off as he has no say in this matter right now. My wife is ok with me checking her phone when I want although she does sigh every time and tell me she hasn’t talked to anyone. I’m not sure how to look at deleted texts but pretty sure most communication was done thru Snapchat so that gets auto deleted anyway-I can see no contact with them since last week. She has removed OP from her phone. At least one of the times she had a 3some she told me she was going for a walk with the OPs wife. I just don’t understand how she could do this and lie so much about it. I don’t know if I’ll ever trust her again. Some of the times with him were in her car which I refuse to drive or ride in now...I can’t stop picturing them together and making out in her car. That movie just plays over and over in my head

although she does sigh every time and tell me she hasn’t talked to anyone.

And this what you'll probably get at an increasing and escalating rate of impatience. Because she's wondering how long things need to cool off before she can get back to what she was doing - either with your former good friend or another man (or men).

I don’t know how to quote what I wrote before but I said “she enjoyed it and don’t want it to end”. Should read “didn’t want it to end”. Not that it makes a ton of difference but she’s telling me it will not continue. She is trying to make an appt with a therapist as am I. Do u find it best to use same one or does it not matter?

I wouldn't use the same therapist if you feel you need one I'd go to someone different than your WW. Therapists are not magical people that can completely turn off any bias or perception they have so it would be better to not have that. Also subconsciously or on purpose one or both of you would start using your therapy time to get messages to the other person and defeat the need for honesty with the therapist in my opinion.

I've seen that. Early in my marriage my wife and I had a lower-scale version of that with another couple. We were both biracial couples and it was hot and fun.

One day I came home from work on an evening when my wife had to work late and, for some reason, all four of us knew it. The other wife was at my house when I got there (they had keys to our place). She was drinking wine, maybe a couple of glasses in. She wanted to have sex with just me, privately at home, outside of the context of one of our "all four present" swing sessions. She said something about how she was sure my wife would be okay with it. I don't recall exactly how she worded it, but her attempted implication was that she had okayed it with my wife in advance.

I won't lie, I thought about it. This woman was hot. However, at that point I did not have express permission directly from my wife to me. So even though I had no reason to disbelieve the other woman, I said that, no, I wouldn't do it unless and until my wife told me personally that she was okay with it.

Later, I asked my wife about it. She was pissed at the other woman. She had not consented, nor would not. It pretty much ended our little arrangement.

The point is, if you're going to swing, it's important to remember who you made your marriage vows with. Cheating is cheating. It's about sex, but it's about sex in the context of lying and sneaking and breaking promises. I don't care if you did swing before, your wife cheated. Period.

I don’t know how to quote what I wrote before but I said “she enjoyed it and don’t want it to end”. Should read “didn’t want it to end”. Not that it makes a ton of difference but she’s telling me it will not continue.

Do you believe her? I guess that's the more important question, because it's your life.

I've always believed that open marriages are a ticket for disaster. It seems that is what has happened in your situation. Good luck with trying to put your marriage back together. If you can't, I hope you have learned a difficult lesson that you can apply to your next relationship. Your children are the true victims. Nevertheless, with proper co-parenting, they will most likely do alright. I wish you the best.

I don’t get how to use the quote function...Thumos I do believe her. I hope I’m not being naive and stupid and something like this happens again, but I really do believer her. I’m not saying I trust her on everything right now and still freak every time she gets a text or snap my mind starts racing wondering who that is. I don’t think she would have ever considered cheating on me if we weren’t swapping with them before. We both realize it doesn’t matter that it is still 100% cheating

[This message edited by Greenman at 4:21 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

She decided selfishly to escalate the swinging to an affair.

IMO she not just enjoyed the sex but she enjoyed the attention from another man (not him in particular).

This is addictive. Treat her as you would an addict and at high risk to repeat with the OM or someone else next year.

Trust is a wonderful gift and once it's gone it is difficult to rebuild and takes years.

1 - In the context of your marriage, your wife is now a liar. Ask your wife what her plan is to rebuild your trust in her (since you can't believe anything she says or promises).

Note: she doesn't get to ask you to 'trust' her.

2 - Insist she read: "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda MacDonald

3 - You both should read and discuss: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass

I don’t get how to use the quote function...

The easiest way is to highlight the portion you wish to quote in the thread, then copy and paste it into the reply text box. Once it's in there, highlight it again and click on the quote button directly to the left of the reply box.

Robert she actually just got those books in mail yesterday as well as “cheating in a nutshell”. I read “how to help your spouse heal from an affair “ last night and will be giving them both to her tonight when I see her. She’s seems to be doing the right things right now, but have a long ways to go to regain full trust

The easiest way is to highlight the portion you wish to quote in the thread, then copy and paste it into the reply text box. Once it's in there, highlight it again and click on the quote button directly to the left of the reply box.

Think I got it...testing thanks. And thank you all for the responses. Been reading this site a lot the last week. Haven’t found any situation that is quite like mine so far...

Haven’t found any situation that is quite like mine so far...

Maybe in the particular details, but sad to say that your story is exactly the same as a lot of others - your wife broke trust. It doesn't really matter whether you had an open marriage or not, she agreed to certain rules and commitments and then broke her word.

She’s seems to be doing the right things right now, but have a long ways to go to regain full trust

IMHO you won't ever regain full trust. Trust is a plate. When she cheated, she took a hammer to that plate and it is in pieces all over the floor. You may eventually be able to get all the pieces and glue them back together, but that plate will never be the same again. And if SHE isn't buying books and reading and educating herself on what she has broken, I'm sorry to say that is a red flag IME.

I don’t know what to do.

Focus on you. Read up on the 180 in the healing library. Take time to figure out what you want going forward. I know that seems counter-intuitive in these early days, but don't waste your precious mental energy on trying to push her to fix anything. Just my .02.

Robert she actually just got those books in mail yesterday as well as “cheating in a nutshell”. I read “how to help your spouse heal from an affair “ last night and will be giving them both to her tonight when I see her. She’s seems to be doing the right things right now, but have a long ways to go to regain full trust

I have to say, and I don't say this often, but that is encouraging. I'm a little skeptical about where swinging and open marriages ultimately end up, but this does seem like a woman who wants to fix things.

My WW certainly didn't take it on herself to locate books and order them.

That's a big step and if she reads just those two books, she's going to have a lot of insight into how to help you heal and the things she needs to be doing.

You might consider asking her, after she reads McDonald's book, to write out her specific plan for how she will help you heal based on the recommendations in the book. Sort of a "work plan" if you will. This along with a detailed written timeline outlining in specific detail the affair.