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I know my value and what I deserve

CT beat me to it. Yeah, this is excellent progress. Keep going!

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 6:57 PM, December 7th (Saturday)]

I did ask her specifically what she considers progress for me. She said she doesn’t know. She says she is willing to answer my questions but it’s clear they frustrate her. She says she can’t prove what the answers to the questions I think she is lying about and feels like she is fighting a battle she can’t win. All of this is the exact same things she said to me before I contacted AP. So yeah it makes me feel like there are still things she is holding onto. She doesn’t like the accusations but there is nothing she can do about it but answer honestly. If it is lies then eventually they will collapse as lies do. If it’s the truth then her story won’t change and maybe I can trust her. I don’t feel it’s pointless to talk about it or ask the way she does somtimes. I feel there is a point and that somthing good can come out of it.

Let's look at this step by step...

I did ask her specifically what she considers progress for me. She said she doesn’t know.

I think she does know. She wants you to get over it. Wrapping it up in a more polite verbiage doesn't change the fact that what you're looking at is a complaint. Criticism can be constructive, and when it is, it's part of the communication process. But this is open-ended. This says "you need to change".

She says she is willing to answer my questions but it’s clear they frustrate her.

And it's equally clear that she has NOT been willing to answer your questions. Otherwise, you wouldn't have had to go to her AP for information. She allowed that extra dose of humiliation with her continued dishonesty, despite the fact that she's been around here long enough to fully understand the hazards of withholding the truth.

She says she can’t prove what the answers to the questions I think she is lying about and feels like she is fighting a battle she can’t win.

What battle? ...the one where she keeps you in the dark in hopes that you'll just move on and forget about it? At this point, she's supposed to be on YOUR team, not battling you as an adversary to protect her secrets. It doesn't take much in the way of mental acuity to understand that the solution for a poor record of honesty is to BE HONEST, continuously, on every subject, every time. It's consistency which eventually wins new trust. You don't have to be a rocket scientist for that.

All of this is the exact same things she said to me before I contacted AP. So yeah it makes me feel like there are still things she is holding onto.

Of course it makes you think there's more. Because every time you do a little digging... there's more. THAT is what's been consistent since DDay. Not a record of full honesty on her part. So, don't apologize for it. YOU aren't the one who's caused this epic level of distrust.

She doesn’t like the accusations but there is nothing she can do about it but answer honestly.

If only she would. That would be a start. As things stand today, you have no reason to believe her if she tells you the sky is blue. It takes YEARS to recover a modicum of trust when you're dealing with a proven liar... years of consistent truth-telling. Is she even capable of that? It's only been a month since the last data drop.

If it is lies then eventually they will collapse as lies do. If it’s the truth then her story won’t change and maybe I can trust her. I don’t feel it’s pointless to talk about it or ask the way she does somtimes. I feel there is a point and that somthing good can come out of it.

Weirder things have happened. Who knows? Maybe she'll realize one day that lies and manipulation aren't worth the trouble they cause. But recovery isn't just about getting all of the truth. There's so much more that needs to be done. Like this from tl502:

It took over 18 months before My h reached remorse. He put on a good act for most of those 18 months, but he had to realize that our marriage was over and he had to totally change his moral compass and learn boundaries and respect for me as well as for himself. It was long and difficult for us both. We are still fighting the fight 6 1/2 years later.

There needs to be remorse. There needs to be real empathy. You WW is going to have to get deep into her own psyche and root out the flaws in her character. Why does she lie? Why doesn't it faze her do so? Why doesn't she feel guilt when she lies? Why was cheating a choice for her? Why didn't she resolve problems with you or leave honestly? What is it in her character that allows for deceit? Where's her Jiminy Cricket? Does she even have one? Has she learned boundaries? Do you see her working her boundaries in everyday life? Does she respect you? (easier to assess once she's stopped lying to your face). Does she respect other people? Do her stated values align with her actions? Do they align with your own?

The work of a truly remorseful WS is daunting. It's painful. It's humbling. And it's not for everyone. I commend you for wanting to provide the opportunity, but the task is large and the heart of a determined liar is small. Make sure you're keeping those ducks in order. You may end up needing a back-up plan.

Strength and healing to you.

If she is so frustrated that you can't believe her,then schedule a polygraph. She should be relieved to finally put some questions to rest.

Hallmack, I think you should be upfront with her about the progress you have made. That you're realizing the marriage isn't what you thought and you're not going to stick around forever if this is where she stays. She needs to hear that. She needs to know that any progress you make without her showing empathy, honesty, and remorse is progress towards D. You don't have to be ready to file to send a clear message that D will be the outcome if she doesn't come around and join you in R.

Am I to understand your wife is currently pregnant?

Three questions come to mind.

Were you aware of the lack of birth control?

Have you considered that she may have had motivations?

Unplanned on your part?

Thanks for the responses everyone

I agree with almost everything you say camomiletea, what I meant by the lies collapsing eventually is that one way or another the truth will come out. I’ve accepted that it might not come from her and that I may have to build my own truth. I’ll get it though.

Neko, I have I made it clear to her that she needs to change or we will divorce. She might not understand how serious I am but that doesn’t matter to me because I know how serious I am. I won’t live like this forever. She will either change or she won’t. While I’m still in it I chose to believe she can do it. She hasn’t shown me much that says she actually can do it but she has shown me some. I believe she has had a wake up call and that she has adjusted the way she thinks. There definitely needs to be more adjustments. So far it hasn’t been good enough. She doesn’t understand the damage she’s done by continuing to lie and forcing me to contact AP to get the truth when she should have offered it up freely. To her it’s just another shitty choice she’s made, to me it’s proof that she hasn’t changed as much as she would like to think she has. She knows I have zero reason to believe anything she says. I think she struggles adjusting to that reality. She went from complete and total trust and love to living with seeing the pain in my eyes every day and knowing that she caused it. She slips and falls on her face when it comes to this shit a lot. In a lot of ways she just doesn’t get it yet. Everyday I hope she has a epiphany and somthing just clicks and she totally gets it. Right now she’s at 90% with how she handles me and my issues surrounding the affair. That 10% of the time that she messes up and falls into wayward thinking wipes out all the progress she makes.

[This message edited by Hallmack at 10:40 AM, December 8th (Sunday)]

She's right that she can't prove feelings. There's no way for her to prove that she didn't enjoy the sex, especially if she did it more than once. Although, most of the time, us women have to try a few times before we get good sex from a new man. So, even if she did go back for more,that doesn't necessarily mean she enjoyed it.

I think that's one of those things that you'll have to decide whether or not you can accept that you will never know for sure.

As to trusting her, you can't. It's only been a month since you found out more stuff she was lying to you about. She's not being open and honest. Of course, you don't believe her.

Yes she is pregnant

No she didn’t manipulate her way to a pregnancy. Unplanned and unexpected for both of us. If it’s anyone’s fault it’s god or nature for making climaxing in a vagina feel so freaking good.

I have known she doesn’t use birth control for long time. We have used the rhythm method/pulling out for years. HB got a little out of control one night and I lost control of my pull out game. She didn’t grab a hold of me, grind into me and not let go until I finished so it wasn’t her fault. She was very surprised when I told her that I might not have been totally on point that time.

Your wife is a piece of work.

Calling you out on your "lack" of progress??

How about she looks in the freaking mirror because what she should see is a person who's definitely made progress and I'm not talking about positive progress but someone who has upped her game as a LYING CONNIVING MANIPULATIVE REMORSELESS person who should have been handed her walking papers already.

A person can tell a lie but that doesn't make them a liar. Your wife is a LIAR and it's part of her DNA and I get you wanting to make this work for the sake of your kids but staying with her is only going to continue bringing you what you've been getting and that's MISERY!!

Also you might want to start thinking with your head instead of that thing between your legs as having an orgasm (with her) is what's going to keep you in denial and continuing on in this nightmare.

Tell me about the one who hurt you booyah. What’s your story?

[This message edited by Hallmack at 1:21 PM, December 8th (Sunday)]

Hallmack

I did ask her specifically what she considers progress for me. She said she doesn’t know. She says she is willing to answer my questions but it’s clear they frustrate her. She says she can’t prove what the answers to the questions I think she is lying about and feels like she is fighting a battle she can’t win. All of this is the exact same things she said to me before I contacted AP. So yeah it makes me feel like there are still things she is holding onto. She doesn’t like the accusations but there is nothing she can do about it but answer honestly. If it is lies then eventually they will collapse as lies do. If it’s the truth then her story won’t change and maybe I can trust her. I don’t feel it’s pointless to talk about it or ask the way she does somtimes. I feel there is a point and that somthing good can come out of it.

Progress for you????? let me see. If i understand it right, she took your kids and played house with another man multiple times and then to put the icing on the cake called the cops on you.

I'd say its fucking progress that she is still under the same roof as you. And by the way, it's not your job to convince her that you are all in. You are not the villian here.

You are not going to get any more answers in my opinion without one of two things. Your call of course

(1) a polygraph test to answer what you are unsure of. my guess is she will divorce you before doing that

(2) you handing her D papers to make it real for her. it does not happen immediately and you can kill the legal action any time you want.

She has herself convinced that since she was actually more truthful with her boyfriend by telling him she would not leave you than she was with you that somehow that makes her a good guy here.

I second BeyondRage's advice.

She sees it, in her mind it's not in her best interest to admit it. She's being self-righteous, nothing more. You just keep working on you, if she keeps up with you, there's something to work with. Best of luck!!