SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

His main premise (for anyone who hasn't read his book) is that the BS needs to tell WS they are welcome to leave if they want, but things as they stand will not be tolerated and that BS will move on alone if needed. In his experience, BSs taking this approach had the highest likelihood (not guaranteed of course) of reconciliation and restoration of the marriage, mainly due to this inherent desire in all of us to want what we cannot have.

Goodness, this sounds like extremely childish, teenage, manipulation which back in the old days was simply called "playing hard to get." It rings like a variant of the pick-me dance but a dance done slowly and calmly.

The telling a WS they can leave if they choose should be a telling of a true, deep feeling and not a verbal trick. It should be said if the WS wants to know the BSs feelings and if the BS wants the WS to know--not something said for the "highest likelihood of reconciliation" and surely not said because people "want what we cannot have."

Actually wanting what we cannot have is not a sign of health. A WS wanting a BS because now they think they can't have her/him is not a solid basis for going forward and if any relationship needs a very healthy, sound foundation it's the one that has been severely damaged by betrayal.

The 180 isn't meant for mind/emotional/ games. As said here many times it's to help a BS regain balance and strength and serenity. According to Sisoon it is just the opposite of the approach one would take if they are seeking reconciliation. That should come out of true desire, a true faith in the future, a true belief that the WS has changed from unhealthy partner to a healthy, trustworthy, honest one. Using the 180 to manipulate outcomes, feelings, isn't honest. If one is truly wanting reconciliation, or even feeling there is a possibility of reconciliation, it's more communication, as much communication as possible, that helps--not detachment and distance.

[This message edited by marji at 2:33 PM, July 22nd (Saturday)]

I don't necessarily agree that the 180 is the 'opposite' of what one should do if they hope for reconciliation. While I agree that you need to keep communication open, there are definitely aspects that are helpful and telling your WS that they can leave if they want seems to mean something different to me than it does to you guys.

I told my WH that he had every right to decide who he wants to have sex with, as long as all parties know what they are involved in, and that I would not stay in a relationship where I was one of his two partners. It didn't make him chase me, in fact, it convinced him that we needed to separate for a time so he could have the space he needed to examine our marriage.

On day one of this separation I was terrified and miserable. I was sure it was the beginning of the end. But instead what happened was he started telling me the truth and stopped hiding his affair from me. And miraculously, I stabilized. I found out that I could live with him being with someone else, I could not live with lies. Knowing where he was, who he was with, and that he had doubts and fears of his own made me calmer and much much more capable of dealing with my day to day life and children, and even with him. We became friends again. We committed to good divorce decisions and good coparenting decisions, without knowing where we were headed.

Telling someone they can choose to leave you may just be a statement of a fact that they have not been willing to really consider. It may even make them want it less, because until that point they are so focused on how "impossible" the situation is that they don't see that they have many options and almost all of those options are better than continuing to balance two relationships while mourning them both. I was quite clear to my spouse on several facts, like "Neither of us will probably ever really trust you, no matter which you want to be with" and "We will always be in each other's lives, it's not good enough if you stay just to do 'the right thing'. You have to choose me and want to be with me more than anyone else" and "Stop asking for reassurance. Decide what you want most and fight for it, then I will decide how to react to it."

In the end, I made thousands of mistakes. But being calm, and speaking with clarity and setting boundaries, those are things I do not regret! Every BS needs to get to that point and it is beneficial to everyone regardless of whether they want to R or D or they are not yet sure. It did wonders for my children and definitely brought out honesty and authenticity from the AP as well, if you can believe that.

What you did sounds smart and healthy and not at all manipulative but an honest expression of your true state of mind. But that's not doing the 180 which is not about telling a spouse they can leave if they want to but rather taking a firm stance of detachment and communicating only when necessary.

The 180 is not about wanting divorce or avoiding divorce, and it is not the path to reconciliation or the antithesis of reconciliation. The 180 is about finding yourself, that separate individual who will continue to be a person with or without the marriage. And the 180 is about putting that self first as you figure things out and decide what you can or cannot accept from this spouse you thought you knew but clearly didn't. The 180 says, "I am not leaning in on my role as a couple, but instead leaning out and taking care of myself as an individual."

The healthiest goal is to take care of yourself during this difficult time and not focus on your spouse or the marriage or the desire to maintain this role as a couple. Does everyone need to do a hard 180? No, not necessarily. But since the wayward spouse was clearly paying attention to their own wants in a very selfish way by having an A, a soft 180 is almost always useful in rebalancing things and reminding yourself that you are and will always be a separate human being. You must know yourself and understand yourself and respect yourself to reclaim any safety in the M. When we feel confident standing alone, we are not afraid of trusting someone else.

A hard 180 is detaching entirely, and this is definitely necessary if you are repeatedly burned by an unremorseful spouse. But a soft 180 is very healthy after such a massive betrayal. Anything short of a soft 180 where your WS is concerned--at least for a period of time as you grieve and regroup--indicates some codependency or outright dependency. It isn't healthy to continue to lean on someone who just betrayed you. And I believe that now especially with a history of cheating in the M, that leaves the BS in a very unsafe position. A soft 180 helps you find yourself again so that you know you will be ok. No matter what.

It is a good thing.

throwawayabay, to specifically answer your question from what I have lived and read here:

***these are theories, not accusations***

1. Most H's react strongly to a hard 180. My own H did, but that was not my reason for doing it. I don't feel that Hs tend to notice a soft 180.

2. Many (not most?) Ws seem to react to a soft 180. A few have turned around on a hard 180, but others just let the M end once their H detaches. These women seem done with the M either way, so it didn't much matter regarding the 180.

Why are Ws impacted by a soft 180, while Hs are impacted by a hard 180? Well, that is NOT a fact, first of all. That is just what I believe I have seen. My theory is that men rely on their wives for their day-to-day needs and the hard 180 hurts; they feel it. Why not care about the soft 180? Hs just do their own thing if their wives are withdrawn or quiet or busy.

But women? We need the soft, emotional support of our husbands. A soft 180--him not listening or doing his own thing when we need to share--hurts. Wives feel lonely without that support. The hard 180 on women? That only hurts the spoiled princesses! lol. Just kinda kidding. It's a very general theory, and absolutely not scientific. Give it some thought. Men frequently need their wives for the big things, and women often desire their Hs for the little things.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:54 PM, July 22nd (Saturday)]

Wow, thanks OwningItNow.

Great summary and exactly the type of post I was looking for.

Thank you.

Hello,

I personally think that the 180 even comes naturally without even planning or following a thing.

This is my second go around and to be honest I was in a much less vulnerable position this time. The first EA I was in school and I couldn't really leave or do much, I was stuck.

So this time around I actually felt empathy to his f'd up self esteem, FOO issues I almost pitied him. I was done. I had it. I contacted a friend in the same line of work that left and moved to GA and was getting paid a ton more. She spoke to her manager and I just had to wait for an open position in one of their four offices. I would actually have a better class of living with just my income and the schools were better. It was a no brainer for me.

While he was out at his stupid happy hour I was planning for my my families future and it would not include him.

I was done. I loved him but couldn't alone fix him and I finally realized it. It was a coming to Jesus moment for me.

He came home and I told him the plan, I would contact a counselor to figure out how to tell our DD and called my friend, an attorney to figure out what I would be allowed to do in regards to taking my DD out of state.

So I think the 180 had a lot to do with the means of the other party. I know it sucks but it is a fact, I was not trapped anymore.

So I think it has nothing to do with gender more to do with the mental state of both parties.

Like a perfect storm. I was ready to roll out and my WS came to terms with needing professional help. I was done spoon feeding his crazy ass to what I needed to make it work.

I knew I was the best option. I put up with more shit than most and any other person would eventually have to deal with his f'd up demons he was running away from.

I don't know if I helped at all but thought I would give you my perspective.

I'd be interested in someone expanding on what OwningItNow posted, specifically looking for general descriptions and/or examples of what a hard 180 looks like vs a soft 180.

Thanks.

The 180 looks different for different couples who are in different marriages. But along those lines, the 180 is about detaching from dependence on a spouse and attaching to one's self as an individual. I believe it looks something like a circle with zero being a completely dependent couple and 180° being the opposite--instead relying solidly on yourself alone. Some joke about a soft 180° and say they are doing a 90°, but this makes sense: they are gently detangling their emotional and physical needs from their spouse without drawing a firm line.

The soft 180° (imo only)

No emotional connection or sharing

No sex or very little (never initiated by you)

Focus on yourself and family time

Kind but not affectionate

It feels like, "You are no longer my best friend or lover, but I still care about you as a person and a coparent."

The soft 180° reminds you that you cannot get all of your needs met by one person and forces you to handle your needs differently. Your spouse is just a casual friend.

The hard 180° (imo only)

No emotional or physical sharing at all

No taking care of the day-to-day needs of the other

No spending time with the spouse

Pursue your own goals

Meet your own needs

Make your own plans

You are courteous but not kind.

It feels like, "You are no longer even my friend, but you are still a human being."

The hard 180° is showing you that you can make it on your own and can do it all; you do not need this person. Your spouse is a stranger, an unknown, a roommate.

This is the way that I see it. If 0° is a close marriage, the 90° is you pulling back because there is no safety or trust like you thought, and the 180° is the opposite of close--just somebody that shares the bills and breathes the same air, but you don't really know this person at all.

IF you are codependent--and many of us are--then doing ANY part of the 180° is hard, even a 5°. lol. When we pull away from a relationship and don't dote on our partner that we love, we feel empty. Unhealthy! We feel empty because making other people happy is all we know! We do not even know who we are much less how to take care of only ourselves.

If you have this feeling that you can't do any part of the 180° because you can't disappoint or detach from your spouse--this person who just cheated on you, by the way--then you need professional intervention for your illness (codependency).

You cannot give your power to be happy to someone else. It will not work out well for you. It is not healthy.

I found the 180 came naturally to me. I didn't even know that's what it was called until a few days ago from this site. I have been doing it fully since January. Although many parts were started after DD 2 years ago. My WH did not really notice, in fact just a few weeks ago told me he thought we were doing better. (Obviously he is really invested in the marriage.)This is because we never talk or spend time together, all convos involve our sons. But when I dropped the news I was taking the sons on a vacation without him, as he had another work trip (that was how I found out about AP)... that is when he really noticed and was not happy. His attitude has fluctuated alot in the past days, ( angry, pouting, wants to touch me, sit beside me, do things for me, bring me things). Today he even asked what I had planned for this week even though he knew I was leaving for the trip on wednesday.

I don't think he has taken me seriously. But still I continue on with my life, my intetests, etc... That is my experience with the 180. Maybe that is not what you were looking for in regards to a response but I have enjoyed reading the responses to this thread.

All the times I tried to do a 180 to influence my spouse it never worked. I think doing it to control another person is where the problem lies. I was going crazy and looking for every single response and trying to decide if he was responding as i expected.

Best thing is forget about the WS. Do it for you. Do it for yourself. I am codepenedent so i know how hard it can be to do a 180. However it gets to a point where u just have to do it for your own sanity.

All the times I tried to do a 180 to influence my spouse it never worked. I think doing it to control another person is where the problem lies. I was going crazy and looking for every single response and trying to decide if he was responding as i expected.

Best thing is forget about the WS. Do it for you. Do it for yourself. I am codepenedent so i know how hard it can be to do a 180. However it gets to a point where u just have to do it for your own sanity.

Thanks for all of the good advice, opinions, and personal experience everyone.