SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So we are 3 years out from DDay. And i think even BS would have described our situation as recently as a few days ago as pretty good all things considered. We are pregnant with DS3, we have just come out the other side of affair season and have recently taken the massive step of agreeing to send me overseas for a week on my own for our business. An unfathomably significant act of trust and vulnerability on the part of BS.

Then in the last fortnight i made a few poor choices. On 3 separate occasions I left my work place to get lunch, just up the road about 500 meters, and rather than return to work to eat it (which is what i have consistently done since DDay if buying lunch) I remained either at the lunch venue or ate in the car somewhere i couldn't be seen by my coworkers. (Keep in mind here that i used company cars to go and see my AP during the A.) The first time i did this because i had a business call to make (our home business). I was totally oblivious that this may trigger BS and was an undiscussed change to ghe status quo. I sent her a message while i was still there indicating what i was doing, and the response was positive. It was only after receiving that positive response that i even realised i had risked a much much worse outcome and was pleasantly surprised that the response had been so benign. I would later discover that BS was giving me a little rope because i was doing something for our business that would have been inappropriate to do at work and was extending me some trust there. I was also in a restaurant and there was therefore some basic level of verifiability. I would also discover that it did make her feel uneasy and that she was extending this trust more out of a misplaced feeling of obligation rather than actually trusting me. She has recently been feeling like SHE is holding us back with insecurities and her own issues and so she has been letting violations of safety such as this go in the name of 'extending some trust'.

When i did this the third time, BS text me when i got back to let me know that the tracker app we use for me was saying i had been away from work for 45 minutes. I sent back a simple acknowledgement and added that i had had lunch in the car outside the restaurant (just like a newbie wayward, being completely wrapped up in what i was doing and who i was worried about looking bad in front of - and forgetting entirely about the similarities with my A and how this might trigger BS).

She is understandably beside herself. I on the other hand was utterly bewildered because hadnt she just days earlier condoned the exact same thing? Why should i have been concerned for a second that she might have a problem this time, but not last time?

My confusion angered her further. It took a while for me to come to the realisations i referenced above that i never should have taken it upon myself to do it the FIRST time let alone again. And that i had completely missed the A connections and acted 100% selfishly and without taking any ownership of my choices.

Now here is where it all gets really bad.

That night we talked about it, and during the conversation BS started to get quite heated. She started raising her voice a bit and combined that with some fairly precise gesturing that i found a bit intimidating. I'm not concerned with being hit or anything like that. But i did appear to have quite an internal reaction to it on this occasion. So i told her she was scaring me and asked her not to yell. We continued. At a certain point the yelling came back but amplified - and i had a full on physical reaction to it. I'm not talking about just feeling nervous when someone is verbally abrupt or the like... I am talking about an intense fear response that made me shake, unable to complete sentences and terrified me so much that i felt i needed to leave the room while she calmed down and then come back.

I couldnt even get the sentence out to explain it. By the time BS worked out that I was about to leave her and put my own difficulties above hers, the yelling evolved to screaming and it became so aggressive that my response catapulted me off the bed, falling to the ground and crawling out the door like someone was firing a gun in the room. I dont remember ever feeling anything like it. I was petrified. And i have never reacted like this before. But the feeling was a bit familiar. But i'll get to that in a sec.

Once i was out of the room and had managed to shut the door, i stood out =side the door basically frozen with fear just quivering and shaking and hyperventilating because i had no idea what had just happened. I stood there for about 20 minutes before i moved into the living room and sat vacantly staring into space for about 2 hours. I then got up, and cooked.

Yep, i cooked. I started making stock paste. WTF?

The familiarity i felt was with how i used to feel around my step father who was physically and emotionally abusive (far more emotional than physical - psychologically this man was a truly evil son of a bitch to me). For some reason the screaming shut me completely down and put into some kind of self preservation mode. I never went back in to check on BS. I was too afraid to. I let her stew in the bedroom for hours until i got a text saying she was going out for a while and to please move all my stuff into the spare room while she was gone.

I was devastated. But i was also still terrified and even more so of doing more harm than i already had done, so i complied and sent her a text saying 'its done'. Succinct, honest - and completely devoid of emotion. This was another critical mistake. When she got home she asked me if this was what it took for me to 'give up'. Her yelling at me. I could barely speak but managed to get out that i didnt know what she meant. I was so scared of saying or doing the wrong this at this point. Remember at this stage, my head is still spinning and i do not understand fully how a lunch taken in such a similar way to one taken a few days earlier which she approved of could cause such incredible harm to our R.

So I moved into the spare room, and the next day I was a bit of a robot. I was scared no matter what i said or did was going to be the wrong thing and after being asked to move into the spare room i did not want to make any affectionate moves towards BS despite desperately wanting her to hold me and ask me to come back because she made a mistake kicking me out (this was obviously not something i really thought would happen). I was very withdrawn while i tried to figure out exactly what had happened and how things had come to this so that I could start to get this thing back on track again. BS shared with me at one point that she has just realised that for the last 3 years of R i have been basically half-assing it. Doing all i have needed but not doing enough to earn R. Not working on myself enough, not really working on me. This was exceptionally hard to hear as i have felt the last 3 years have been the most difficult of my life (never forgetting how much worse they are for BS) and that has been due to how hard i felt i had worked to be a better me and to help get us this far down the road to recovery. But the more i think about it, the more i think she is actually right.

I have been doing enough to keep the lion from catching me, and no more. Am i cheating? No. Am I lying? No. Am I hiding anything or withholding any truth? No. Am i being in any way manipulative, deceitful or otherwise malicious? No. I have left all of that behind and adopted principle centred living. I have worked out my values and i felt like i did everything i could every day to make sure i was living by those values. But this whole episode truly uncovers the truth that ALL of that - not lying, cheating ETC ... STILL DOESNT COUNT FOR SHIT IF YOU ARENT STILL WORKING ON YOU TO MAKE YOURSELF SAFE FOR YOUR BS F.O.R.E.V.E.R.!!

Who is to say that in 6 years time this habitual 'doing enough' wont slip into a terrible habit that once again threatens our marriage and to delete a further 9 years from the life of my BS that she will never be able to look back on with any joy?

I find myself now standing at the very bottom of a very big mountain that i really thought i was more than half way up. And this scares me greatly. She has essentially told me that she needs to see change or we are done. This is it. This is my chance to consolidate the last 3 years and make it all worth something. And i wont be getting another one. Wow. I am not where i thought i was.

If you have made it this far - thank you. These long posts of mine... i am sorry. But i do have a question...

Why do YOU think i took those lunch breaks away from work without realising the connection to the A behaviour? Why do you think i was so blinded by my own pain that i couldn't see how terrible of an idea it was to walk out on that conversation despite the screaming? Why wasnt i stronger than that? Why was i able to let this fear reaction be so much more powerful than my heart?

I already know that i obviously have FOO issues still unresolved and that need attention to figure out some if this. But i am interested in your perspectives on my thinking. Not the choices themselves - but the thinking that lead to them. Where am i going so devastatingly wrong?

I love my wife. I dont just say it - i try and DO it as much as i can. I dont believe in love the 'idea' or love the 'feeling' I think while that is romantic it is complete bullshit perpetuated to sell greeting cards. Love is a VERB. Its ACTION. Its choices every day. I am clearly not succeeding - but i truly hold that value so close to my heart... so why despite this am i still managing to make such poor decisions? What is the missing link? I am not stupid (unfortunately... would be so easy to blame the whole thing on being an idiot)... so where is the break down occurring do you think?

Thanks for your advice - Seats.

Ah...I saw your post in reconciliation first...THIS now makes more sense!! Since I responded to the other post...I feel I need to respond to this one .

My FWH seems to be a lot like you. He was always the "taker" in our relationship...and I was happy it was that way because I was the "giver". I loved pleasing him...he loved being pleased...win-win. WRONG!!! I let my FWH get away with his selfish acts...it was fine for me. But we learned that with him not "giving" to me every once in a while...he didn't think he could do it...he told me once that he thought it would be too much work .

On DDay something clicked inside me. The "giver" in me was overtaken by the BITCH in me. I actually gave him ULTIMATUMS if he wanted to have a second chance with me. He didn't have to comply...that was his choice...but IF he didn't comply with every one of my ultimatums...I was GONE.

One of my ultimatums was for HIM to pick two nights a month...and do something just for ME. I told him I felt his A was very selfish...and he needed to show me he could be unselfish. So...for two nights a month...my FWH had to PLAN a night...make ALL of the arrangements such as the reservations...tickets...etc...and then give ME a special night . It was very awkward at first because my FWH NEVER had to do any of this...but after a little bit...he became quite creative at doing these things just for ME . Honestly...we don't do the "two nights a month" thing anymore...because my FWH has surpassed this. Almost every day my FWH does something JUST FOR ME...and it shows me what HE has on his mind...ME .

My FWH told me how he was scared about this ultimatum...because he didn't know HOW to be the "giver". He THOUGHT that by bringing home a paycheck...and us having a roof over our heads and food to eat...that this proved he "gave" to me. These are wonderful things...just like you are doing with having a principle centered living . But when my FWH changed his mindset from thinking about what could make HIS life more easier to what could make MY life more easier...something clicked inside him . He said he has found that by being more giving to me...he feels I am more giving also...and THIS is truly the WIN-WIN . I hope this makes sense...it sounds perfect...in my head !!!

I liken it to how I used to feel about God. Every day I lived my life doing things that I thought would NOT offend God. This seemed to work well . However...I've now changed my mindset. Instead of thinking if something I do will OFFEND God...I think if something I do will PLEASE God. It is a subtle change...yet it is very different. So...maybe instead of just thinking about doing things to not offend your lovely wife...you think about doing things to please her .

I don't know about the other part with the screaming and your reaction to it...but hopefully something GOOD can come out of this reaction. Y'all are still working on things...just keep going forward...and soon...y'all will get there .

ETA...with y'all having young children...doing something for your wife could be as easy as giving the kids a bath one night while she rests on the couch . My FWH's most precious "gift" to me...is a coffee mug...with little slips of paper in it that tell me how much I mean to him . It doesn't have to be elaborate or expensive. It DOES have to be something to show her that YOU are thinking of HER...that is the key !!!

[This message edited by Want2BHappyAgain at 7:17 AM, February 18th (Saturday)]

Seats, I am a wayward, 9 years out from Dday, 8 years reconciling. I like what you posted about love, being about actions and choices, I agree with you. I would add that we (especially waywards) need to develop a deep understanding of our betrayed spouses heart, mind, and emotions. We (WWs) often see things from only our perspective. I think this must change to truly help our marriages heal. Only then can our betrayed loved ones begin to see we are serious about the healing process.

You asked "where am I going so devastatingly wrong?" IMHO you need to know your dear betrayed wife's perspective first and foremost. Put yourself in her shoes. Then you can see why your actions cause her to react. Let her know you understand how she felt or is feeling. Be humble and ask for forgiveness, not demanding it, simply asking. Let her know you will change. It's not easy but healing can happen.

Still have FOO issues to work out... Are you still in IC working on them? Does she know everything about them? Does she understand that your response to her yelling was one of your FOO triggers?

Do you understand that she will ALWAYS wonder at least a little, where you are when she cant see you? Do you understand what actions and activities are now permanent thoughts in her head? You can't forget these things and you can't expect her to do the work of telling you over and over.

Regarding your argument, why did she feel the need to raise her voice? Were you minimizing, making excuses, avoiding responsibility? When you realized that she gave you "some rope" did you thank her? Ask her how she felt about it? These are the things we must do to help our BSs see that long term it and still understand and appreciate the gift of continuing R and growth as a couple.

Keep working, but get back to making it about her, not you, all day every day until she tells you to stop it.

Why do YOU think i took those lunch breaks away from work without realising the connection to the A behaviour? Why do you think i was so blinded by my own pain that i couldn't see how terrible of an idea it was to walk out on that conversation despite the screaming? Why wasnt i stronger than that? Why was i able to let this fear reaction be so much more powerful than my heart?

It sounds like you had a panic attack. Maybe that's from the FOO issues, maybe it's coming from fear of abandonment or unprocessed guilt. You'd need to work with a counselor, I think, to root it out. Unprofessional opinion, but it sounds like untreated anxiety to me.

The troubling part is that you walked away, and what that looks like from the vantage point of your BW is you putting your own comfort first again. That might not necessarily be the case, but if you can put together enough coping skills to tell her what's happening during these episodes instead of walking away, she'll feel more secure.

As far as the lunches go, I think you had probably slipped into auto-pilot where you just weren't thinking. It's so important for former waywards to keep structure and continuity in order to rebuild trust throughout the reconciliation process.

I think maybe you dropped the ball and panicked. That panic needs to be addressed if you're getting full-on attacks where you can't communicate effectively during one.

This was hard to read because I could see both sides of this. Her panicking when you weren't where you were supposed to be and you reacting to yelling as if you'd been shot. I honesty think you both have untreated ptsd. I think it was too soon for a business trip and she's pregnant on top of that. Now maybe it was unavoidable I don't know. I'm 3 years out and I know there are triggery things my BH can't handle right now regardless of how ready he thinks he is. Honestly I don't think I'll ever be able to travel again without something like this happening.

It does indeed sound like a panic attack.

What I think you missed is that for the rest of our lives a BS is looking for the trap door to open. It is VERY important not to let the impression that you are leaving linger.

In this case you did. In doing so you opened up a hurt that was healing a little - and as a result you went back to square one.

I have learned that an affair creates something like PTSD. I didn't really recognize it in myself. When the trauma gets re-triggered we re-experience the physical reaction as though we are experiencing the trauma for the first time. This creates fear - anxiety that is felt physically - because reliving the pain is really terrible. Your wife knows this - I think that is what she is trying to tell you.

What re-triggers the trauma is strange. It might be a song, or mental picture. In my case it is a tone conveyed in a text or a phone call that suggests a distance.

In my case the PTSD was the last hurdle to complete reconciliation. I went for EMDR therapy - which was astonishingly effective. I no longer fear the memory of my wife's affair - and it is hard to describe how it is to be free of that.

When the fear left a certain heaviness that infected my life left with it. I don't think that heaviness has left your wife, and she is more than aware of it. Unfortunately she is probably weighed down with shame for still feeling it. She may be angry with herself and indeed probably feels no small measure of guilt.

Hi Seats,

Thank you for sharing and for reaching out for help.

I can relate to a lot of what you described here. I have similar Foo issues, and I've had some experiences similar where you panicked and shut down.

Several times, my BSo's anger and screaming at me triggered in me a response where I was shaking uncontrollably, sobbing, shutting down - if the yelling and seething rage continued at that point, sometimes I would take off running. Literally. Once, I ran out of the house screaming in terror. Then when I came back I got threats of being left because I had made a public scene and may have made the neighbors think that he was beating me. So next time it happened where I triggered I stuffed down the screaming and just RAN. The back door I hadn't realized, had bounced back open behind me and when I came back, I got more threats that he would leave because of the door being left open and the dogs could have escaped and gotten run over and even though I hadn't been screaming, he still brought to my attention that it looked really bad for me to be running out of the house all of a sudden in sheer terror - I hadn't been empathetic to the fact that he lives here too and he doesn't want the neighbors to think he is an abusive person.

He cut me a lot of slack despite these issues and I am very very very VERY lucky he is still around.

What has helped me to overcome these triggers, these episodes, is the fact that I've almost lost him time and time again. It has become VERY REAL to me that he may leave me and now ANYTHING that I do that may cause him to have second thoughts, I have been remembering and reminding myself when I enter into a triggered PTSD state like the one you described, that what I fear even MORE, what I fear the MOST, what is the LAST THING ON EARTH that I would ever want to happen is to lose him. So with being very clear in myself that THAT is what I fear the most, it helps me to handle episodes where I am triggered into a PTSD state to hold onto dear life, to things like "If I run away he might leave me. If I shut down, that only jeopardizes everything. I have to be here for HIM. What does he need? Maybe he needs to let out this anger, I have to take it and be empathetic. I did this to him. I have to face it. I have to be here for him." Things like that. That said, I desperately need to go to IC, so please take what I say with much more than a grain of salt and please work through this with your IC if you have one or if you can get one. This is just stuff that's helped me survive so I thought I'd share.

Also, something that's helped me is being adamant to him that I DO NOT under ANY circumstances want to lose him (unless it is what he chooses to do - then Id HAVE to step aside and love him that way by letting him go if it was what he decided to do).

What I mean is this... He's almost broken up with me several times now. Because of mistakes I made. I tell him that I see where I made mistakes and I've now learned from them and I will not make them again, I will be better for him going forward. (And then I really, truly back up my word by DOING IT, no matter what it takes. But in the middle of the near-breaking-up, he doesn't know this yet.) He is going through an intense reaction and in the moment doesn't know if he wants to put up with this shit anymore. Instead of freaking out or making it about me, I have learned to empathize and listen openly and let the words sink in and stab my heart, NO WALLS, NO BARRIERS. I can really see how hard this is for him. And I want nothing more than to make it better, to do better, to be better for him going forward. I really listen to how he is feeling and what he is struggling with, what he sees I am not doing well enough at. I tell him that I see now and I am doing better going forward (and from then on I MAKE SURE that I do).

Sometimes he still has almost broken up with me, even with doing all this. I'd tell him that I don't want to break up, and I will do anything it takes to prevent that. Sometimes he would say that because of my insistence and my wanting to stay together, that I'm being selfish and it's still all about me. That's where it gets tricky. I say "yes, you're right. If one person wants to break up, well then, that's just what's gonna happen. If you decide to break up well then there's nothing I could do besides be loving to you while we go through separating but on my end, I am NEVER going to agree about breaking up, and I will do anything I possibly can to be better and to help make your life amazing. Now that I know [whatever my mistake was that triggered him] hurt you and upset you, I am not going to do that anymore and I am working on being better and better for you each and every day."

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, what's worked for me so far is figuring out how to overcome my PTSD reactions and really BE THERE for him (even if I'm shaking controllably it's FAR better to force myself to stay stuck there like glue and FORCE myself to overcome it and be open and listening to him and hold tight to the motivation of how badly, how desperately, I want to have him in my life and be better for him each and every day to where he can have a happy life with me if there's even a SLIVER of a chance that I still have). And, never agree to break up but also don't try to force him to stay with me - just say adamantly that I DONT WANT to break up and will do anything I can to prevent it and to be better for him going forward.

Again, please take this with a whole lot of salt because I still need a lot of help from my IC!! Just sharing what's worked so far for me since I can relate so much to what you are going through. Hang in there. You can do this. You can beat this. You really can. Don't give up trying. You got this. Even when it feels like you don't. It's the getting up and trying again with the lessons you've learned that's the most important thing.

And as far as your question with why did you go out to lunch not thinking about how it could be a trigger, I wonder if it's simply a human mistake. I've had slip-ups where I just didn't realize that something was going to trigger my BSo. Then I would learn from my mistake and make sure to tread as carefully as I possibly can in that area going forward. And I am working on my empathy to help prevent further slip-ups. Before I do something, now I stop and think first what effect it might have on my BSo. If it could be a bad effect, then I don't do it or I do something differently that wouldn't have a bad effect.

For example. Sometimes I can't sleep at night and I want to get out of bed and journal it out, think it through so that it can stop bothering me and I can resolve it and get to sleep.

But then I think about how my BSo might feel if I suddenly got up out of bed and was away for a long time at night

I'm guessing he might worry that I was back to my old ways and betraying him again, and he'd be upset and worried and hurting and then HE would lose sleep too. So instead of possibly making all that happen, I choose to stay in bed and remind myself that I can work through the issue at another time when it won't likely have any bad effect on him. And I think, it's better for me to lose sleep then for him to lose sleep too (and other worse effects). So I just deal with the insomnia and drink extra coffee the next day.

Anywho.

Praying for you and her.

You got this.

[This message edited by guitargirl at 8:10 AM, February 19th (Sunday)]

The best thing to do. Talk about how it made you felt when she yelled. Apologize and work harder to not make it a "habit" yes 3 times is a "habit" to have a pregnant betrayed wife feel panic. IMO you weren't being selfish but you werent being considerate. She gave you some rope and you ran with it without thinking that this is still a infidelity tainted relationship and your wife has hormones probably jumping all over the place. If you think you are just doing enough to keep the peace and not really working on changing you and your decision making choices then start working on it. No point in wallowing, just start working. Tell her what you have figured out. This is a great point in your life. YOu sound disgusted in yourself and your progress. So, now you can "own" it and your healing.

I mean this gently - but when I read your post it all seemed focused on YOU - how you felt, etc. My advice would be to focus on your wife's needs first and foremost. If you don't want to do that (or can't) then you might really not be a candidate for R.

I love my wife. I dont just say it - i try and DO it as much as i can. I dont believe in love the 'idea' or love the 'feeling' I think while that is romantic it is complete bullshit perpetuated to sell greeting cards. Love is a VERB. Its ACTION. Its choices every day. I am clearly not succeeding - but i truly hold that value so close to my heart... so why despite this am i still managing to make such poor decisions? What is the missing link? I am not stupid (unfortunately... would be so easy to blame the whole thing on being an idiot)... so where is the break down occurring do you think?

Missed this. I believe you do love your wife in what ever terms you hold love to be. But, do you love your wife in the terms she holds love to be? Isn't just possible that you love your wife, but you might love yourself more? No matter how much you love her, it will not matter if you love yourself and put your comfort before her own.

BTW, I don't see anything wrong with walking out on your wife screaming at you. Leaving the room that is. I am still confused about how you leaving the room turned into you leaving her?

Thank you all for so much advice and support. It is so appreciated. I will get through these one by one - but i should add that i am doing so through the lens of things having gotten somewhat more serious today and am not in a great place. If you feel i am letting that colour my responses - i would appreciate if you would say so.

Want2behappyagain

My FWH told me how he was scared about this ultimatum...because he didn't know HOW to be the "giver". He THOUGHT that by bringing home a paycheck...and us having a roof over our heads and food to eat...that this proved he "gave" to me

This has definitely been me. I have been so tied up in my own thoughts that i have forgotten BW's love language and believed that by being an excellent provider and doer of chores that I am giving. When the whole time she is still screaming inside because i wont talk to her about my fears and my other internal dialogues. She needs intimacy, not a maid. This is a big shift that needs making and it needs making now.

My fear is this - all too often i feel like i have had a crack at opening up about a feeling or a fear, and that feeling or fear has been taken as something that must therefore define me or be a full representation of my point of view. This leads to intense emotional responses that lead us down a whole new path of pain and misery - but based on me sharing like I was asked to...and based on a feeling that may have been fleeting, or knowingly irrational. It makes me feel like i dont have a safe place to express these things and thus i shut down and i dont do it.

Part of me yells at myself saying - Ignore your fears you idiot, you need to show her that she is more important than them - and another part of me is asking why i am allowing my fears and feelings to be hijacked in this way - after all, she asked for them didnt she? I have never been able to pick a side. And just writing that i know that 'picking a side' isnt the solution either. This whole idea makes me feel very lost, and makes me scared that I am broken in some way that will result in BW giving up on me.

On the subject of fears - i am also a bit afraid of posting this because i have noticed that when a WS posts about their feelings and their personal, internal struggles - and uses alot of personal pro-nouns - they are often called out as being too foccussed on themselves. Oftencheatedon wrote:

when I read your post it all seemed focused on YOU - how you felt, etc. My advice would be to focus on your wife's needs first and foremost. If you don't want to do that (or can't) then you might really not be a candidate for R.

I agree that my focus needs to be on my wifes needs - 100%. Genuine question - why is it that when I post about my feelings, struggles, challenges, fears, situation etc etc.. It becomes a bad thing that I am looking inwards? Are we not encouraged to reflect, look inwards and ask the hard question - is what I am thinking here unsafe? And if so, how can i do that in a way that sounds more like it is focused on my wife? Does introspection not necessitate an abundance of personal pro-nouns in order to discuss it?

OR - am i really being, and still being, just completely self centred and missing the point? I am open to this... I am just... frustrated i guess that I want to do the work on myself. But when i focus on her its the 'wrong thing to be focusing on, i shouldnt be changing because of her' and when i focus on me its 'It seems focused on you, focus on your wife first'.

Short version - I want to be safe, be better. I want to make my wife happy again. I want to do the work. But is ME wanting all that too much about ME? It seems so paradoxical.

Theidiot

Thank you. My view on love is still an infant really. I thought i loved my wife the whole time we knew eachother. I said it to her countless times, i made wedding vows i believed fully were sincere. And yet i would look back on that now and i say in reality - i didnt love her at all. I just talked about it alot. Whoopdy-fuckin-doo!

I like what you say about knowing their mind, heart and emotions. The action - should be the quest for exactly that.

GuiltyInky - Ill answer each question in your post:

Are you still in IC working on them? No - we both made room in our lioves for something else this past 12 months and let IC & MC go. This was a mistake and one I am about to rectify. And i only ever scratched the surface if the FOO issues. It needs to become a massive focus for me.

Does she know everything about them? Yes - but my reaction on this occasion added a layer that neither of us expected and so i think there are new things to explore for both of us.

Does she understand that your response to her yelling was one of your FOO triggers? She does now, she didnt at the time. Which was one of the things that, at the time, upset me. I had said already in the argument that she was scaring me and to please not yell - and then when i started to physically respond to her yelling again, clearly shaking and stuttering, she then dialled it right up and screamed at me to get out. At the time i felt really hurt that my feelings had been disregarded like that. But that was the shock talking - i quickly came to agree with BW that what i effectively did was put my own issues above hers by trying to leave the conversation when it got heated. This was like abandoning her all over again. Zugzwang - this answers one of your points.

Do you understand that she will ALWAYS wonder at least a little, where you are when she cant see you? Absolutely. I have said this to her myself. That she will never know anything for sure, that she will always be acting on some level - out of faith or trust. This is one of the scars that infidelity leaves.

Do you understand what actions and activities are now permanent thoughts in her head? I clearly didnt this time. And that is something i need to be far more mindful of!

Regarding your argument, why did she feel the need to raise her voice? She was angry, emotion boiling over. We all do it i think.

Were you minimising, making excuses, avoiding responsibility? Oh - Um... its hard to remember it that well now, but i would speculate that i probably was. Or at the very least, failing to articulate how i felt, which is an issue i often have and frustrates her no end.

When you realised that she gave you "some rope" did you thank her? Ask her how she felt about it? NO! And THAT is an AWESOME point! Thank you! I let it go and took some more. And that was a huge miss.

Chamomiletea

Yes i am pretty sure it was a panic attack too now. And i also agree with your hypothesis that it relates to FOO and unresolved anxiety.

what that looks like from the vantage point of your BW is you putting your own comfort first again. That might not necessarily be the case, but if you can put together enough coping skills to tell her what's happening during these episodes instead of walking away, she'll feel more secure.

As far as the lunches go, I think you had probably slipped into auto-pilot where you just weren't thinking. It's so important for former waywards to keep structure and continuity in order to rebuild trust throughout the reconciliation process.

I think maybe you dropped the ball and panicked. That panic needs to be addressed if you're getting full-on attacks where you can't communicate effectively during one.

All of this is just so spot on. Thank you so much!

isuck

The trip is in 2 weeks - I actually put it on the table tonight that i shouldn't go and have been unequivocally told that i still AM going. Due to monies already outlaid. Its all a bit more complex than just that but her decision is final. There is no further discussion on it (her words).

Redsox13

Thank you for your insights into PTSD.

What I think you missed is that for the rest of our lives a BS is looking for the trap door to open. It is VERY important not to let the impression that you are leaving linger.

In this case you did. In doing so you opened up a hurt that was healing a little - and as a result you went back to square one.

Yes i think you are exactly right. Its almost as though i was fucking with the trap door just to scare her and it backfired (just without the deliberate asshole-ness of that)

Guitargirl

I have learned to empathize and listen openly and let the words sink in and stab my heart, NO WALLS, NO BARRIERS

Beautifully put :) This very accurately depicts the vulnerability required to make this work. I will try to look at it that way!

And as far as your question with why did you go out to lunch not thinking about how it could be a trigger, I wonder if it's simply a human mistake.

As much as this would be a lovely side step out of the guilt i feel now... I'm afraid i dont think that is a fair label for it. Yes i am human, yes i make mistakes, but the other thing being human affords me is the mental capacity to problem solve, and thusly - to plan! To think ahead and say exactly what you said you do now. You think to yourself before you do anything - how will this affect BS? I didnt do that bit. I just acted. And by omission of action, I made a terrible choice. Zugzwang

again you touched on this. I may not have been being selfish, but i wasnt being considerate!

Oftencheatedon

I have touched on this at the start... but this kind of feedback on this kind of post does more to perplex me than anything else. But i am open to that being because i have misinterpreted you or maybe there is a bigger picture issue i am missing or that you maybe didn't make clear?

I just dont understand how we are meant to be reflective and work on ourselves to become better people whether our betrayeds stick around or not - without the feelings, fears and relevant stories being all about ourselves? Please forgive me if its is my overly literal brain completely missing some context or something. I do that all the time and it drives BS fucking bonkers!

Zugzwang

Ahhhh Zugzwang... yours was the post that really rattled the cage today. When you asked whether i loved myself more, it highlighted for BS that since 4 days ago when this all started - i had STILL put a few things before her. Made them more important, not realised just how 'on fire' our whole life really was and seemed to be walking around like a fuck wit not putting any of it out!!

One of them was a conference call for our business. It could have been postponed - i did it anyway. I struggle to balance all of my responsibilities at the best of times, but especially this one because our business is run 100% by me at the moment and is a key source of supplementary income so in making sure i keep it going - i feel like i AM working for US. But so much so that at times i dont see the forest for the trees and i miss an opportunity to make BS feel like the most important person in my world. This was particularly poignant last night. And i feel awful for not seeing that.

the other was we had a prior commitment to take the kids on a big day out to see a bunch of family and go to a kids fun park of sorts. BW decided not to go and i took them still because i dindt want them to miss out because of Mum & Dads issues. In BW's words, 'They will miss out even more if Mum & Dad aren't together anymore'.. Well, it makes sense now!

In any case, BW was reminded of these facts by your words and emerged from her room this morning with a look on her face i recognised from all the worst points in our early R. And i found myself once again being informed that despite nothing having been said at the time - i had been failing us up til now. That we were in crisis mode and i had been treating it nothing like that. I was blown away and gutted. I couldnt believe i was hearing this again. And for the VERY FIRST TIME in this whole process of R, (she asks me all the time if i have ever had this thought) i finally had the thought that 'maybe i can't do this'. I have never thought about giving up. Never entertained any such thing. But today, it got in there. And it was gone as fast as it arrived. But i felt so powerfully and totally deflated by feeling like i had failed again despite what i thought were my best efforts...

I have shared that with BW, it was fucking hard to say out loud. Not half as hard as i bet it was to hear.

Anyway - i dont want you to think that i blame you or anything, of course i dont, just explaining the story of today that it was your post that jolted BW into thoughtfulness and eventually disgust with me. But i am actually grateful because who knows how much worse i would have let things get without it! So thank you.

I just want to finish on this.. I do not love myself more. Of this, i am most certain. I make some shocking mistakes and some shocking choices that make me look awfully self involved, yes! But honestly, i dont think i even know how to love myself any more. I havnt paid any attention AT ALL to a single desire or want of my own - other than my wife herself, for a long long time. The last 12 months in particular. Even my most prized past time and personal interest took a massive dive off the board of obscurity in 2016. Today BW asked me what i do need, and i couldnt even answer the question because thinking about it made me feel physically disoriented!

I just need to get fluent in her love language. This will require so much more focused work than what i have been offering to date.

By trying to figure this stuff out, committing to working hard on what you learn as you go forward, and really accepting and owning your mistakes and being so determined to do better going forward...This is what I see you doing right now and I just want to say that with this approach that you are doing now, you are on the right track.

As WS's, especially after the toll all the horrible things we did sets in, it can be hard for us to recognize and admit what we are doing right (especially when we don't feel like we love ourselves at all anymore). But it is important to acknowledge what we ARE doing right, so that we have the awareness and motivation to keep doing more of what we are doing right.

You're doing great by working hard and learning from your mistakes and trying to do better going forward. Keep doing that, keep ditching the stuff that isn't working, and ALSO focus on what you're doing that's good and that IS working. Try not to ignore what you are doing right (even though you might not feel good about yourself right now and it might feel like a struggle to admit to yourself where you're succeeding) because if you ignore what you are doing that is good/right/helpful, then you're less able to focus on doing more of that good stuff.

It'll help propel you further, faster.

[This message edited by guitargirl at 6:31 AM, February 21st (Tuesday)]

Sounds like good things to me. Communication and being honest. There was a video series my wife asked me to go to at church. Talk about outside a comfort level. I am not a Christian so it was a big deal to her I went for us. How to laugh yourself to a better marriage. It really helped us to bridge the gap in understanding how we each think and relate on a male and female level. I suggest you both to watch it. Much of what you explained to me sounds like compartmentalizing. It is just the way most male minds work. Not just way wards. You may not love yourself more, but how about the comfort level? I think it is possible to put that first but not necessarily have more love for yourself. I am not sure I would call that a selfish thing either. Just safety. Self preservation. Rome wasn't built in a day. You both need to just be patient. When you get discouraged just think about the positive changes.

Seats

I appreciate your willingness to question yourself and your thinking/actions. It is a great trait, and should help prevent future wayward behavior.

That being said, I am going to go against the grain a little here. As a BS, around 3.5 years out, I have had to learn to take more responsibility for my triggers. Because, I can see a herd of lions in the bushes, when in reality a leaf just fell and hit the forest floor.

To me, it doesn't do a lot of good for my husband to beat himself up for me triggering, because the truth of the matter is, his bad behavior usually happened in the more distant past. He cannot predict what is going to trigger me, and if he has to live his life walking on eggshells, well- that is very stressful. (And of course, he needs to take reasonable precaution to not trigger me. But to me, your lunch activities are certainly not a glaring, black and white issue.)

So, my suggestion is that you and your wife may need to come to a little healthier place in dealing with her triggers. What works for us is some variation of this:

I explain how I am feeling to

my husband, and what I think caused it;

He listens and apologizes, both that he may have inadvertently made me feel that way (and that he created the bigger situation where I have insecurities/triggers);

He usually explains what was actually happening, what he was thinking, etc.

That usually diffuses the situation.I just usually need to be heard, and reassured. And, to enter reality again.😉

Also, I just want to throe out there that at 3 years these things will come up because things are relaxing a bit -- as they should be. It is hard for a vigilant BS, though. So, I feel for your wife.

ETA - But, this idea that your wife "gave you enough rope to hang yourself," well - I think that isn't healthy thinking. We need to be straightforward with each other. If she had said, "Seats -- if you are going to eat somewhere other than your desk, please let me know. It makes me nervous when you change things up, especially when it reminds me of affair behavior. . ." then I am sure you would have complied, yes?

I just really don't agree with this:

My confusion angered her further. It took a while for me to come to the realisations i referenced above that i never should have taken it upon myself to do it the FIRST time let alone again. And that i had completely missed the A connections and acted 100% selfishly and without taking any ownership of my choices.

You are not a mind reader. Unless you are doing something waywardy, then how could you know this thing would trigger her? No one can live in that state of vigilance forever. If I listed some of the wacky stuff that has triggered me, you'd laugh. There is NO WAY my husband could have predicted 95% of it -- and I eventually learned to realize that this wasn't his shortcoming. It isn't yours, either. Not at this point, and not the way you described the situation.

I am not blaming the victim. But I remember somewhere around year 2 a fellow BS told me that I was going to have to start owning my triggers. Oh man -- I hated that. How unfair!!! And, I do not necessarily suggest that you say this (as a WS) to your wife. But, when I read your account, I see that things could have been handled better on her end as well. Perhaps working with a marriage counselor would help.

Good luck!

[This message edited by bionicgal at 10:35 AM, February 22nd (Wednesday)]

Guitargirl

Thanks, its comforting in a way to have anyone tell me they think im on the right track. Its a really interesting point you make about acknowledging the good. I tried to articulate this idea last night to BW during a discussion and i couldn't remember where i had read it. It was your post. But its a hard one for me - see i would love it if BW was able to make sure she made an effort to acknowkedge the things i get right. That would be awesome. I would feel a sense of accomplishment and a sense that i am progressing or propelling forward to use your words. And this woukd encourage me and make me feel empowered to keep pushing for continual improvement.

But here is where i feel it falls down. Why should a wayward receive the gift of empowerment? From ANYONE? Let alone their BS. Isnt it a bit unfair to not only ask the BS to live with the constant fear and uncertainty of R, but to behave like a cheerleader of sorts also?? Have we not burnt that bridge of support and emotional trust that makes that kind of deeply personal encouragement possible?

I desperately wish she would do it. It would help me so so much. I just cannot see past the fact that i dont deserve that kind of support and that its unjust for her to have to privide it. Does that make sense?

Zugzwang

Thanks for the recommendation. I will suggest to her that we both watch it together.

As far as remembering the positive changes... Honestly i feel like based on the conversations we have been having these last few days, none of the positive changes have been deep enough and therefore significant enough for BW to believe that i will ever really be safe. So i dont feel she is capable of doing that right now. It really does feel like she has locked all that out for a time. And this makes me feel sad and even frustrated because i thought for 3 years, even if i concede that ive been half-assing it this whole time, i have poured myself into this and wprked to change myself from me centred to being principle centered. That doesnt necessarily mean ill never have bad thinking but i am an extremely different person than i was. And this separation and i guess ultimatum and way it has sprung up as it has... Seems to relegate that to a very mild, background relevance. I can understand why. To feel safe she needs to see me do what i have not yet done in 3 years. She knows i have issues SUSTAINING change and doesnt want to get caught up in recognising the positives lest i relax back into a state of comfort and 'just doing enough'

bionicgal

This was a bit hard to read. I am imagining it will be harder still for BW. I agree that walking on eggshells is stressful. In fact i would go so far as to speculate that i have developed a severe anxiety around my BW because if exactly that. I am constantly waiting to be told i have done or said something terribly wrong and get reamed for it. Its so nerve racking and its ALL the time!

But as far as the lunch and the trigger. I used work vehicles to go and see my AP during the work day. We had established a fairly comfortable situation where if i dont come home for lunch, i grab something and head back straight away. She has a GPS tracker on the phone so she knows when i leave and when i return to work. This system helps keep my whereabout somewhat verafiable. If i take a work car somewhere else for 45 minutes and no-one else saw me or can verify where i was... I put myself in a place where i cannot provide any evidence i was not with an AP. And using a work car to do it - really just pretty careless in terms of being mindful of triggers. Does understanding the dynamic a bit more change your position on this? Or do you feel the same?

Its also worth noting that BW has most definitely told me in the past that me changing things up makes her very nervous and she doesnt like me doing it without discussing it first. This is part of why this was such a careless mistake. I changed it up, i didnt comply with what i knew she needed. I took that first lunch, and then when i got a positive response, i did it twice more without being aware enough to notice i was putting myself in unverafiable positions and that i was changing up the status quo without prior discussion.

Having said all of that, i feel you when you say a person cannot live in that state of vigilance forever. I feel like it would eventually wear me out. And i would become an anxiety riddled ball of tension and probably lock myself in a padded cell to make sure i didnt hurt anyone. I feel like this may be a bit soft too though? A bit weak maybe? Do i need to toughen up here?

My first time posting and I just found out my husband had an affair. So don't know how helpful this will be and haven't had time to read all responses... so sorry if I'm repeating someone else.

Firstly, don't lose heart. Did you say she was pregnant? If so, please remember that hormones could play a large part in the extreme reaction. (Don't get me wrong, this could happen to anyone anyway... you can't know exactly what's going on in her head. But pregnancy hormones as well as stress of addition of a new baby could certainly exacerbate things.) I have two small children and the thought of how our marriage breaking up could affect them, and the weight of stress from the idea I might have to raise them alone... sends me into frightening panic attacks. My point is to be extra sensitive to this side of it from her point of view... but also...remember this is a point in ANY marriage where there is extreme pressure and so it won't always be like this.

My other suggestion, is depending on your partner and how you best got through things at the start of your reconciling, perhaps go straight back to marriage counselling. Have a mediator helping you both to feel more sure footed in your discussions. You need to be able to talk openly to her about your concerns that this cycle will keep happening and you'll never be trusted. Although having known less than a week about my husbands affair, I don't expect him to tell me where he is every second of every day for the rest of his life. But... maybe just for a little while.

Hope that helps... 😔

Seats,

I suppose I can see how your behavior was a little thoughtless, yes. However, when you got this "positive response," you naturally assumed it was ok the next two times. So, any repeated behavior was totally understandable, in my opinion.

I am not blaming your wife -- she likely felt uncomfortable about the first incident but wasn't wholly honest about it, and then the repeated ones seemed like infractions to her, when -- according to her behavior -- they would not to you. But, she has to own part of that.

Is she in therapy? Sometimes the actual act of monitoring can make us feel less safe rather than more.

I think it is helpful to be reminded some times as a BS that the wayward behavior is firmly in the past. At some point, I have to deal with reality as it is now. My reality is that I still have some PTSD-style triggers that make me feel like I am not safe. Sometimes this is because my husband did something thoughtless, but sometimes it is totally random. It helps me for my husband to remind me, "You are safe." Do you say things like that? It seems simple, but it helps.

It is amazing that at 20+ of marriage, my H and I are still figuring out ways to console/reassure each other!

ETA - I see from your bio that your wife was pregnant with at least one of your affairs. So, obviously, even getting further along in pregnancy is a trigger for her. I would just focus on figuring out what things reassure her the most.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 9:11 AM, February 24th (Friday)]

You are not the only one who did things wrong here. If yelling is a trigger for you and brings back the abused child in you, your wife shouldn't be doing it, period, any more than you should be going out to lunch. And for her to then remark that that's "all it took" for you to give up is slightly obnoxious. Yes, sending you into a ptsd spiral is "all it took", geesh.

Just giving you another perspective.

Hi Seats,

This is actually my first response, but I feel very strongly about some of the other responses that you have got so far that I wanted to contribute. Sorry it so long.

Bionicgal, gently, in your first response, you said that Seats is not a mindreader, and he responded that his BW made it clear that it makes her uncomfortable when he changed up his schedule without discussing it with her first.

So im a little confused as to why you are still holding her responsible and calling it "not blaming" but say that Seats' actions (that she told him would make her nervous) are understandable.

I think that by you saying you "suppose" you can see how his behaviour was careless, you are minimising the behaviour that she has called, and Seats has acknowledged, was careless. If feels that it was careless for him to do something that she has said would make her nervous 3 times, then it is careless, and not simply than "little thoughtless".

It is not okay for him to "naturally assume" that the behaviour was okay just because he got a positive response. WSs have to challenge a lot of what is "natural" to them in order to become safe and considerate to their BS, because they are used to being selfish, so doing something that comes "naturally" to him is not the most wise thing to do when it comes to being considerate of his BW.

Behaviour not that a BW has said would make her nervous is not understandable the first time, let alone "totally understandable" 3 times, whether or not he had a "positive response". She did not explicitly say that it was acceptable for him to that. She was however, straightforward about the fact that it would make her uncomfortable, and he did not comply.

It's not that she "likely" didn't feel uncomfortable about the first incident, she did. Just because she didn't say it then does not mean that she "wasn't wholly honest". She was trying to extend trust to him. And perhaps she thought making her feelings clear the first time was enough, especially after 3 years of R, for her WS to take them into consideration. Why should she have to remind him?

Perhaps she did not think that he would assume that it would be okay for him to do it on 2 other occasions. She does not have to"own part of this" unless you think that she was wrong to extend trust and should have repeated herself the first time and not the 3rd that she could not predict at the time would happen.

If you think that she should have spoken to him the first time, then surely you can agree that as WS he could have been empathetic and asked if she was comfortable with him doing that, instead of just assuming. You don't seem to mention anything wrong with his behaviour despite the fact that he himself has pointed out that it was careless, but you have a lot to say about hers.

Again, his BW did not ask him to mindread to predict a random thing that might trigger her, she specifically told him about this behaviour would make her nervous. And not being considerate/mindful of how a BS might react to behaviour, that they have said would make them nervous, is not not exactly safe. Some BS might consider that to be wayward behaviour so it is not helpful to remind them that wayward behaviour is "firmly in the past".

Btw, at 3 years, thing should not "be relaxing" unless the BW feels that they should. Unless they have, it's quite the opposite and things should not even be done without consideration for a BS, because it should be a habit to that they are considered, let alone be "relaxed". Relaxing is by being inconsiderate if not conducive to a marriage after infidelity, during R or after. She should heal on her own timeline, and it has been said that healing takes 3-5 years. She should not feel obligated to relax, or handle triggers as well as other BS might. She is doing her best in her own unique situation. Her being upset by his behaviour does not mean that she is not "dealing with reality as it is now". It definitely does not mean that she needs to come to a "little healthier place" in dealing with her triggers. Advice on how she should deal with triggers might be better if reserved until she asks herself, or perhaps if Seats does so to help her after discussing it with her first. Not that it really applies here, because as Seats has said, she did not expect him to be a mindreader and expressed her feelings beforehand in a healthy way. It was normal for her to be upset and emotional, especially as she is likely more emotional due to being (heavily?) pregnant.

Even it did apply, it is not wise to tell a WS that a BS should handle triggers better, and then say that you don't suggest that he speak to her about it. He should be transparent with his wife. Especially if someone has influenced what he thinks about his BW's difficult triggers, which it seems like what the aim of your post was. What a WS should not do think that BS can handle triggers better than they are doing in because they have compared to another BS' completely different situation.

I feel that you are minimising his BW's feeling that his actions careless by saying they were 'a little thoughtless'. If she feels they were careless after telling him how they would make her feel, then that is what matters. This might be your opinion but his BW opinion is the only one that matters and she has made it clear, before and after the 3 incidents.

Seats, you seem to be very empathetic to your wife's feelings and that's great.

And I'd like to gently remind you that the way it is now is not the way it will be forever, and that your BW probably does not want to live in a state of vigilance forever. In fact, she didn't want to live in it at all. But she is doing her best dealing with a lot of pain. It might be best for you to take it day by day, remembering that it takes 3-5 yrs to heal, and not think of "forever". It is understandable that you would have anxiety but as you know, its most important that your BW comes first and that she's dealing with a lot of anxiety (and more) herself. Just keep being patient.

Another response that I wanted to mention is Annanew's- Seats' BW was not aware of how the yelling affected him so it's not fair to say that she should not have done it in the same way that he should not have (essentially) broken a boundary she had established. It was not simply "going out to lunch". It's quite normal for people to raise their voice when arguing, so for her not to do it "period" is far more difficult than it would be for him to change his schedule without considering her feelings about it. Especially if they have been married for quite some time and this is the first time that she's been made aware of it.

It seems that your wife did try to calm down and not yell after you told her the first time that it was scaring you, and that was considerate of her to do so considering that fact that she herself was very upset. She could have continued to try to do so, but obviously she didn't at the time. Maybe she didn't understand just how much it affected you?

It does not mean that she was deliberately trying to trigger you. She did not remark that her yelling was "all it took" for him to give up.

She was asking, from a place of fear and pain, if he was going to give up on her while she is trying to heal and reconcile after his affairs and after she has generously offered him the gift of R.

According to Seats OP she did not tell him that's "all it took"- as it was a question, and she did not use the word "all", thereby trying to minimise his trigger. What she actually did was ask if this (her yelling) was what it took for him to give up. If you are going to call her obnoxious, you should have quoted Seat's quote correctly. She did not intentionally try to send him into a ptsd spiral. What you have quoted is very different to what she said, which is why you have a very inaccurate interpretation of the intentions of her question.

You calling his BW obnoxious is not kind or helpful. The "geesh" is not necessary". She id likely suffering from her own PTSD and cannot be expected to be perfect all of the time, but that does not mean that she is triggering him intentionally.

If you are going to give OP "just" "another perspective" (based on an incorrect quote) then it would be more helpful to suggest that Seats speak to his BW about his PTSD, rather than just flippantly insult her.

I will make the suggestion Seats, that you discuss with an IC and your BW, because she needs to know about how your abuse has affected you, and how this will affect your marriage/R.

I think that when responding it would help to remember that a BS needs patience, empathy, and understanding from their WS (and others) in R. For Seats' BW, even more so because she is pregnant, and even more so still because she was pregnant during on of his As, and will likely be more sensitive to triggers at this time. When responding people should be more understanding of this rather than just acknowledging it and wrongly calling her out anyway.

I felt the need to respond because I would be disappointed to think that you could be swayed even 1% into thinking that your BW should be healing "better", or that she was overreacting, or even worse, that she is obnoxious. I think that people should take into account that she might read this, and it would be extremely hurtful. And that she did not ask for advice on how she is Ring or to be criticised on how she expresses her fear/hurt, nor did Seats in his OP.

I hope I haven't overstepped Seats, and I can tell from your response to Bionicgal that you are not willing to make excuses for yourself. Don't give up Seats. Keep being empathetic. Best of luck to you and your BW!