SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank you again to all that have offered their advice and/or perspective. I am reminded of the fact that not all advice i receive i will agree with and that i should take what i feel can help and disregard the rest. (as opposed to starting an argument). Such is the nature of a richly diverse community of people. Particularly traumatized people. We all respond so differently.

Sarah thank you for your insights. We will be back in MC & IC soon and i am looking forward to getting into more forced action on these issues.

Bionicgal, it would be so easy to get caught up in your view on this as i think any WS would love to be where you guys are on your journey. You seem to have really got to a great, enviable place where you trust more, grant greater autonomy, have let go of alot and are really doing great. Maybe your WS has done a much better job of doing the work than i have and has earned that from you. Maybe you are just better equipped emotionally to make it to that island.

But we are definitely still swimming. And im not sure we can even see land yet. Your advice is very seductive but i agree that it seems to minimize my behaviour and it seems to diminutize my BS's trauma - which is both significant and uninvited (as in she never asked to be cheated on).

Annanew - the subsequent poster said everything i wanted to say about your perspective. I think there are some key assumptions in your post that can be attributed either to information i have not given in the first place or information that you didnt see or infer from what i did give. Searchingjuly did such a thorough job of this i almost feel like ive been studied. Ultimately i feel it is very harsh to cast dispersions such as obnoxious toward a BS without fully understanding the background. Perhaps a few questions may have been a better place to start?

And searchingjuly - if i am really honest as i read your post i thought you were my BS. Thats how insightful that was. You seem to have a direct line to her mind. She does read these threads. And her thoughts have been so in sync with yours its spooky! The only thing that swayed me away from thinking you are her is the fact you joined 8 months ago. BW wouldnt have created a new account back then and not posted anything. She can read posts anonymously with her own account.

So thank you for your insights - you are pretty much on the money in every way. And thank you for your encouragement - to both of us.

Searchingjuly,

My reading of Seats's initial post is not the same as yours.

I will say as someone who has spent a great deal of time here, and as a BS who has probably had 1000 triggers, I do have some experience in this arena. I shared what has worked for us.

Also, I have no interest in casting a BS as a villian. I do think that Seats's post shows signs of him trying to be a mindreader, which is patently unhealthy. That was my main point. My secondary point was that they need to handle triggers better. My third, that his wife/they may need counseling support.

I think it is helpful to get off the blame game and work on some marriage skills at 3 years out. Endless self-flaggelation on Seats's part is getting them nowhere, and likely contributing to her feeling of being unsafe.

Just my take.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 8:26 PM, February 26th (Sunday)]

Very thoughtful and well put, searchingjuly.

Your response was what I expected, theseseatsRtaken. The remorseful WS gets into a mode where they believe they are to blame for everything under the sun.

The reality is... misunderstandings happen. People aren't perfect. You will never be perfect. Your BS will never be perfect. It's good to acknowledge that what went wrong in this case is not 100% on your side. You has a ptsd reaction you couldn't control. Maybe your BS had no idea that you were an abused child and that yelling at you was not a great idea. Ok. Why didn't she know? If you never told her this, you need to address in therapy your inability to share key parts of yourself with your wife. Maybe she knew about it but was so caught up in her hurt that she couldn't see yours. Ok. That would be a great thing for her to admit and for you to admit. It happens. Pain can blind you.

And searchingjuly:

It's quite normal for people to raise their voice when arguing, so for her not to do it "period" is far more difficult than it would be for him to change his schedule without considering her feelings about it.

It's not hard to not yell at someone. I have never yelled at anyone, including my ex husband. Yelling may be common but it is most definitely not "normal". Just to clarify - your view is that theseseats needs to walk on eggshells and be the perfect WS forever after so that his wife is not compelled to yell at him? Yikes.

It might not be hard for you to not yell, annanew. Not everyone has your personality. Expecting everyone to conform to your decorum is not reasonable. Some very successful marriages have high volume "discussions" between individuals who very much love each other and have that temperament. I wonder what percentage of BSs have raised their voices to very high decibel levels in the aftermath of betrayal? Fairly high number I would think.

I really appreciate you sharing what works for you bionicgal. I think you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion on this. That doesnt mean i am any less grateful for your input. I am of the belief that as the WS it is both unrealistic & even detrimental to expect a return to the paradigm of an unscarred marriage. I dont think a blame game is being played and what i inferred from your last post was that at 3 years out, working together on marriage skills as a couple should take precedence over wayward accountability - as though ot has an expiry date. This is where i feel we differ the most.

As the wayward i have left an everlasting scar on my BS's soul. She will never get any reprieve from that. She didnt invite it or deserve it and she wishes every day for a different life. One where all her dreams arent shattered by uncertainty and doubts of self worth and she doesnt have to KNOW that even if i become the worlds greatest husband - its still possible for the utmost faith and trust to be betrayed and trodden upon. What if it happens again? I dont think any one can heal enough to completely divest themselves of that kind of scarring and if they think they can - i beleive there is still some shit under their rug.

I suppose that sounds a bit pessemistic. But i have learnt quite harshly in the last 2 weeks that it doesnt matter how healthy you think you are or how long you have been 'sober'. Your obligation is to demobstrate not only your safety NOW but also what you are doing to STAY safe.What ongoing actions show that you will not allow yourself to ever slip down that slope again. And how are you acknowledging that an unwatered plant will inevitably die? Waywards cannot and should not assume that knowing their safety in their heart is enough. Its the BS that cannot be expected mind read. The WS should study and learn their BS until they are as close to this as possible.

Annanew

. The remorseful WS gets into a mode where they believe they are to blame for everything under the sun.

I have a big problem with the underlying assumption of this sentence.

Once we cheat, we cause a drastic trauma. We impose upon an innocent victim a potential life time of mental torment and self doubt. We inflict wounds that scar deeply. We change their view of the world, of people, of trust and of love. Forever. This is even more poignantly the case for the BS that stays and chooses to R. Because they are committing thenselves to a life that now has a much MUCH higher risk of further emotional or even physical injury.

Who put them there? Who started this? Who made those choices? Who is to blame for the consequences? Who is to blame for what i would call the 'consequential behaviour'?

The WS is. Of course the BS needs to work to get healthier themselves. To heal as much as possible and have their own pile of work to do. But shouldnt the fact that none of that would be necessary had the WS not broken all of their promises in the first place not afford the BS a bit of elasticity on certain things? Like voice raising? Irrational ranting? Long term super-vigilance?

RI doesnt do these things on purpose because she wants me to suffer or is indifferent to me. But when i put myself in her place i can certainly see how easy it would be to look at my pain and my suffering and say clean up your own fucking mess! Im trying to keep breathing over here!

You are right about one thing though - i have not adequately dug in to my FOO in order to share my abuse issues with RI. She was not as prepared for such an episode as i woukd want to be if inwas asking for empathy. And thats more work i need to do.

Once we cheat, we cause a drastic trauma. We impose upon an innocent victim a potential life time of mental torment and self doubt. We inflict wounds that scar deeply. We change their view of the world, of people, of trust and of love. Forever. This is even more poignantly the case for the BS that stays and chooses to R. Because they are committing thenselves to a life that now has a much MUCH higher risk of further emotional or even physical injury

Of course this true..but I do suggest that we also learn and grow, and that what once was a very terrible time in our marriage does eventually recede into the rearview mirror..if everyone is doing the work. The affair then becomes a painful footnote, but a footnote nonetheless. I still trigger, and it still sucks, but I try to live in the new, better present as much as I can.

And if I felt like I were at true, continued risk of injury from my H, I would not be here.

And if I felt like I were at true, continued risk of injury from my H, I would not be here.

So would you say he still does the work? Doesnt ever assume he is 'fixed' or immune from relapse? Makes a point of questioning himself even though you are reconciled?

It feels to me like if this is happening - in any M trying to survive infidelity, then true safety is possible. If it isnt happening, the risk will always be there. And the stakes will only get higher and higher.

Some people truly do just make a choice to be good people and stick to it. The rest either work at it for life, or they end up with their BS back here in JFO wondering how the everloving fuck they ended up here again.

These are my observations anyway. What you have achieved strikes me as utopian and it sounds beautiful. But i just cant see that in my future. I feel like for me, personally, i owe a life debt that is commensurate with the injury i inflicted. She can heal sure. But its like scrunching up tin foil. You can get it flat again but it will never be the way it was.

Seats, I don't want to mess with your mind, I really don't.

My first thought is, are you guys in counseling? Because while much of the way that you describe a BS is true, and very empathetic, it doesn't allow for a lot of growth. But, I also don't think it is black and white. I mean honestly -- life is going to make us all balls of foil at some time. Am I ticked that it was my husband and best friend who did it? Yes. But, I can't get stuck on the fact that I am wrinkly now, we are all going to be crumpled by life.

As a BS, I want my H to remember forever and always how terribly he hurt me. When I trigger, I do still largely expect an apology from him. He broke my heart, and caused me a significant amount of pain. More than anything in my adult life. So -- no utopia here!

But, I do not see my H as permanently flawed. He made some terrible choices, and he has worked really hard to not be that person anymore. I read a book by Desmond Tutu about forgiveness, that helped me remember "but there for the grace of God go I." I do not view him as a powder keg perpetually ready to go off that has to be monitored. Therapy helped me see why he was still a good bet and as safe as the average person. Not that I don't feel unsafe sometimes, and yes -- those feelings may be permanent. That is sad, and I wish it were otherwise. But, people we love hurt us sometimes. That is just a fact. (I realize I should be saying this to BSes and not WSes, and if you were foggy, or a year or two out, I wouldn't.)

Does a WS have to be treated like an alcoholic that might relapse at any time? I think that is individual, and I encourage you to get help in answering that question for yourself. I don't know and wouldn't presume to guess. But, there is a difference is being a loving, empathetic partner who is sensitive to the hurt he caused and responsive when his wife triggers, and someone who feels like they are standing on the ledge and in danger of stepping off all the time - and having to prove that they wouldn't constantly. It is very hard to live that way indefinitely-- not that I don't commend your dedication.

There is some learning that comes from being a WS -- you realize your true capacity for selfishness, and hurting someone you love. Your capacity for using people to feel good. In our case, there was real ignorance about how affairs start, not necessarily with a decision to cheat, but a decision to ignore boundaries or make excuses for doing just small things that might hurt your spouse. So, I see that you are trying hard to not do that.

I'll be quiet now -- but seriously, if you don't have a good MC, I highly, highly recommend it. I would suggest moving into a growth mindset on this though, and not a fixed one.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 8:06 AM, February 28th (Tuesday)]

No we arent in MC. We are heading back when i get back from the trip next week though. I will get back into IC too. I see where you are coming from with the growth vs empathy thing. But can they not coexist? Can we not grow whilst being and always becoming better empathisers? Grow without ever foegetting how bad we hurt and how much we have to earn that trust back every day by being a pillar of self awareness and reflection?

Seats - keep your chin up, learn from the experience, seek to use what you learned to improve yourself. You've done a great job exposing yourself and taking in our feedback, we all need this sometimes, even the feedback we don't agree with can be a learning experience about how you communicate your thoughts vs how people perceive them.

One of the things to make sure you are doing is establishing your new boundaries. For me, it is no more chatting/texting with women, even good safe family friends. I just don't do that any more. There are now places I simply will never go to again, as they are either specifically related to my A or closely associated enough to be potential triggers. There are certain events and activities I will simply never participate in again, and I am replacing them with new healthier events and activities to participate in.

I check in every single place I go, send pictures of where I am, who I am with, and let her know when I am leaving and where I am going next. She doesn't even look at these messages from me very often, but I will keep doing this until she tells me to stop. If I deviate from what she knows is my plan, I call or text, give her the opportunity to know, eliminate the guesswork.

You are on the right track, you simply took a few steps back, but it is not necessarily the end. Keep up the work, the sharing, the learning.

I can easily see how this would trigger her, and you reacting in a different way than you usually do would also be a trigger.

You do seem to be trying.

Reread searchingJuly's post. And as mentioned your BW is on her own healing timeline. Just because some people have worked out handling triggers doesn't mean she should be on the same timeline. She'll work on that as she's able.