SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

mike7 - Thanks for that last post. That was special to read. Much appreciated.

[This message edited by Walloped at 1:33 PM, August 14th (Friday)]

believe it or not I'm trying to help you. I'm sorry if what I've written makes you hurt.

I think everyone believes you've got a chance to reconcile. It's obvious when someone doesn't. It's obvious when someone is trying to be "nice" to the WS. Trying to nice them back doesn't work.

In short, I think you are on the right track. You're doing the right things. I just hope your wife starts doing the right things. You will know my friend.

Drink water, try to take your mind off this mess once in a while. hang out with your brother, take care of yourself. One thing you can do is decide that you will only think about the affair for an hour at 6 pm. Or something like that. Then try to do something else. It's something I did at first. If you can do it, it helps you begin to feel normal again.

Your wife has to take care of herself for awhile. You may even wish to tell her that. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you're devastated and she needs to fix herself. Tell her you haven't decided what you want to do and you don't expect to for quite some time. Take the pressure off yourself. You don't have to make a decision for ages if you don't want to.

I didn't mean to cause you more pain.

I'm sorry if I did.

It's just that your WW probably didn't even consider it.

No worries. As I said, I'm a big boy, I can take it. As long as everything is given in the spirit of trying to help, that'll help me deal.

Also, I'm very raw right now. I try to answer calmly and logically, but it seems every little thing gets me going. Quick example, cause it's still very fresh. Someone recently posted something here saying he/she was "rooting" for me to divorce my wife. I went ballistic. I was pacing around my office silently yelling "WTF? This isn't a game! You're "rooting" for me to kick my wife of 23 years to curb??? You don't even know me! Have you even considered the damage what you're rooting for will do to me, my wife or my kids This is my f-ing life! Not a game. How about "rooting" for me to survive this, get some semblance of my life back, come out of this mess in one piece? How about I "root" for you to drop dead, asshole!" Yes, I need help. I know. Point is, I got myself under control, re-read the post and took it in the spirit it was written, which was to be supportive and helpful.

That was my point. Some of these posts are real gut punches that have me reeling. I'm going to react badly to them. I will. But if I can see that they're coming from a good place and are intended to help, then that's okay.

I didn't mean to imply that WW should get a job as punishment for her affair or to keep her occupied during her days. I think it's the best thing for a number of reasons.

I know when I was a SAHM, the vitriol of the mommy debate was fierce. In short order, no one respects a SAHM. Not because it isn't hard at times, lonely at times, so boring most of the time but because, in this society, we keep score by how much someone makes - good or bad. Being a SAHM can make a mom start to lose her sense of worth, her ability to provide for herself and her confidence. I think your WW would benefit greatly from learning again that she DOES have value and skills and she CAN support herself. She feels so worthless right now. She needs something that she can succeed in outside of the house/marriage.

I think it's also good from a legal perspective. I know you're in NY and each state is different. In my state (not mid-west), when I spoke with an attorney he advised me to just keep doing what I'm doing (running my own biz yet making about 1/8 of what WS makes). I could quit and go back to finance and double or triple that but to just hold tight. He said the majority of people do not get alimony/maintenance anymore. I would get a state calculated amount for child support that was based on my current income vs WS's. Now, should I decide to return to finance, DH will just drag me back into court and have the child support reduced based on my increased income which shows the court exactly what I'm actually capable of earning. So I think you would be wise to have her get a job which shows the court her earning potential so that she can't claim to be a SAHM with no earning potential. Do this to protect yourself - no matter where your journey ends up.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. There are so many reasons I would never cheat on my WS, but a big one was that I knew that you NEVER shit where you eat. It's just such a "duh" for a SAHM. I mean DUH.

Walloped,

I've been following your thread from the beginning and I don't really have much to add since you've received great advice from so many other veterans.

My only point in posting on your thread was to offer you support as you head into this very difficult weekend. I don't envy you but I wanted you to know that I'll be thinking about you and sending you strength as you delve into this very messy process of unraveling your wife's affair. I will caution you to take your time and go easy on yourself. Just as your wife can't be unfucked by the OM, you can't unlearn the really ugly details. I know you need to know them in order to decide which way to proceed because I'm just like you. My XW refused to tell me anything because she wanted "to protect me" which was code for "I WANT TO PROTECT MY FUCKING ASS". Well I divorced that ass and never looked backed (long story). I'm not saying that is your path, all I'm saying is don't let her off the hook. If she starts balling, let her ball. Wait until she composes herself, then begin again. Be a sledgehammer. May be harsh, but it isn't any harsher than her having an affair behind your back while still pretending to be loving, caring wife? Don't think so.

Nekorb and the others are correct. You are seeing regret. Nothing more. Your wife has a long ways to go to get to remorse. She may get there, she may not. Only time and her actions will tell.

Again, I'm sorry you've joined this club. The perks suck but the people here are great.

Take care of yourself this weekend. One day at time.

[This message edited by FrmrBH80124 at 3:19 PM, August 14th (Friday)]

Walloped

You just got some good advice from BH80124

I'm not saying that is your path, all I'm saying is don't let her off the hook. If she starts balling, let her ball. Wait until she composes herself, then begin again. Be a sledgehammer. May be harsh, but it isn't any harsher than her having an affair behind your back while still pretending to be loving, caring wife? Don't think so.

Someone else also told you tears are just a manipulation mechanism at this stage.

I also agree with NEKORB. Much regret here , not remorse. So far all about her and how it is going to effect her cushy life. Even your SIL had to tell you that in the beginning when she got there her sister had to whack her to get her to stop the pity party for herself.

I wish the word naive would disappear. there are tons of women who could be called "naive" that do not wind up in bed with another man. In your early posts you mentioned you said she said that you were controlling. I am NOT saying that has any merit, but she obviously felt that way because she said it while confessing. I'd start searching there as a reason versus "naive"

And after the first sex, naive went out the window and it went from ONS to full blown affair with your wife "all in" every step of the way.

I see two HUGE RED FLAGS in what you just posted

(1) SIL told you how badly she wanted to call OM to tell him off. In most cases that is bull shit. That is just a way to reestablish some contact. AND I WOULD BET MY ASS IF SHE WAS ALONE IN YOUR HOUSE WITHOUT SIL THERE SHE WOULD HAVE CALLED HIM. And that would be breaking NC.

(2) What do you think her reaction would have been if in fact the OM was NOT a liar, was truly divorced and had said to her on the phone how much he loved her and wanted to be with her. Only you can answer what you believe, but do you really believe she would be so "done' with him.

Like everyone says, you can take however long you need to sort through this but from what i have read of your posts, and they have been pretty clear despite your anguish, your wife had and still has real strong feeling for this guy and is nothing but scared shitless of the consequences now.

I think it is good you are getting a written timeline so you have it documented so no stories can change.

Not sure you can trust your SIL but i think most of it she has done a good job, i'd be worried if she was trying to minimize but seems like she has told your wife pretty clearly she truly fucked up and has not tried to defend her.

Hang in there. i know you will .

AND LET HER TEARS FLOW. IT AN;T THE END OF THE WORLD. JUST BUY HER MORE KLEENEX BUT KEEP THE QUESTIONS COMING TO HER WHILE THIS IS STILL FRESH IN HER MIND AND SHE DOES NOT START TO "FORGET' THINGS YOU WANT TO KNOW.

"WTF? This isn't a game! You're "rooting" for me to kick my wife of 23 years to curb??? You don't even know me! Have you even considered the damage what you're rooting for will do to me, my wife or my kids

I've seen this too. And I don't like it. A lot of people who post here are projecting from their pain. I don't think that excuses them. But I understand it. People need to be just advising you along the way. So that you can make the decision that is right for you. Divorce or Reconcile. Both choices are acceptable. Some people can't forgive. Some people can. Also....some people have dealt with unremorseful spouses. Spouses that continue to play games and trickle truth. So in that case, divorce seems the healthiest thing.

I don't see the worst behavior from your wife. I think she's in shock right now. The rug has been swept out from under her, and she's been made a fool. To be honest, it's normal that she would think of her own pain first. She's now realized what she's done and how it will affect her. When/if she finally starts to get it, she will be thinking about you. She'll want to do anything that will help you heal. Reconcile or Divorce. She will become selfless. You will certainly recognize it.

But this takes a while. I wouldn't look for it for some time. Right now, she's reeling. Probably the best she can do is to maintain NC. But be prepared. She's been manipulated and lied to. The temptation to contact this POS will be very strong. So she might succumb. The danger of course, is the guy is a manipulator and he will tell her he loves her and apologize for lying about his wife. He'll tell her he still wants her. And there might be a chance your wife will fall for it again. She feels she's destroyed her life with you. So if this guy tells her he loves her and will do anything for her, she might consider it.

best of luck my friend. You will get through this. I can promise that. Everything you're going through, I've gone through, and many of the people here have.

Walloped, I myself didn't get the benefit if 2x4s here after my Dday because I found this much later in my own journey out of infidelity. In fact, I found SI in my effort to find a divorce support forum.

I vacillated between R and D at first because I wasn't sure what in was dealing with. I didn't know what emotional affairs were and that was all the was initially pointing to my XW. About the only thing I could decide was to do what I wanted to do regardless of my XW's input and just do it. My two boys were part of that planning. Seriously, I just pretended my wife was dead and we are just going to move on with life. My wife was just going to have to figure out if she wanted any part of that or not. I detached from her and her bullshit sooner than expected but with a clear path forward. I was leaning toward D anyway because I'm one of those "affairs are a deal breaker" kind of guy, but to be honest she made finalizing the decision easier when she moved out to her apartment. When I finally told her that I had my own attorney it was she, not I, that bawled her eyes out.

So part of pacing yourself is doing what you did by hanging out with your brother to forget about the situation for a while. Like another poster mentioned part of it is allotting only an hour a day to chew the shit sandwhich or take another step to be more independent, find the original "you" before the M. Who was that guy? What were his dreams? You know what, walloped? You now get to review those and see maybe worthwhile to pursue. In a way, your WW gave you an pass to shape the future anyway YOU deem appropriate. She is either along for the ride or not.

So my goal back then was to go from 90% processing the shit sandwhich day by day to just 10%. In the process of doing so I felt I gained a better grip on myself and more clarity on what I wanted to really do with my life.

[This message edited by Jduff at 4:16 PM, August 14th (Friday)]

I don't post much anymore and I almost 4 years out.

You've been given good advice here. Take what works for you and leave what you don't.

I will tell you what you are feeling now won't last forever and it won't kill you to feel these things and process them. Try to keep that in mind.

When you talk to your W go with what you are feeling. Chances are she is still in a place where she is totally focused on herself. Give her some time to get to that realization on her own.

Based on what you've shared I still see some fog, but trend is towards less of it in the future. She is too wrapped up in how she destroyed her life right now to consider much beyond that. Just keep in mind true remorse is not selfish at all. It is selfless. You will know when you see the difference.

Keep the Q&A to the facts that are quantitative and not qualitative (You guys aren't the only ones to see a GANTT chart before. I had to show off a little. LOL). Don't make the Q&A a marathon session either. Take breaks. Let her spend time with the kids and taking care of herself too (it will help her remember what is important). If you feel like being close to her, be clear that it doesn't mean anything, but you think it may help. 100% normal and natural. Don't feel bad or like you betrayed yourself either. Think of it as a moments peace (or pain on "pause") during a horrible time. It helps both of you. Just be safe until the results come back.

You deserve those answers, but you can't get blood from a stone. Until she has those answers for herself she can't give them to you. I would hesitate to believe much of what she says right now anyway. You are not punishing her by doing that, you are protecting yourself until you feel safe enough. You can trust, but always verify.

I think at a minimum the goal for this weekend should be to establish transparency for her and boundaries for yourself. IC for both of you would not be bad either. MC, maybe in the future, but not right now. MC too early damaged my R and set us back months. Triage first, Diagnosis next and then prescribe treatment.

You are going to be OK and OK turns to good and good has a chance to become great. Don't get impatient this takes time and prudent use of that time to get better.

Take care of yourself.

Mike7 & 1985

Thank you both for being the voices of reason and not projecting personal pain In your posts.

Walloped needs to hear this advice but some of it has been brutal.

Thanks again. Keep moving forward Walloped and dont forget to take some time out for you.

HM

[This message edited by happyman64 at 7:47 AM, August 15th (Saturday)]

1985:

I didn't add my 2 cents there but I will say it here.

People, please ask yourself if what you are typing will be comforting or at least helpful without exacerbating the raw wounds a BS is suffering.

Thank you for stepping up and saying what I have been thinking for the last several weeks. While there are certainly some noob BS's here stuck in a pattern of indecisiveness who may need graphic words and a couple 2X4's to wake them up and make them take action, any action (I did), I think the trend lately may have gone overboard.

A lot of people who post here are projecting from their pain.

One thing I found helpful when I was a noob, was to read the stories of the people who posted on my thread to see what their background was, to try and get an idea of where they were coming from with their advice. We're all a product of our experiences, and can't really help but project a little of ourselves into any advice we give others. If you haven't found it yet, click on the smiley face at each post. That will show the profile, and those who have chosen to, have posted their story on their profile.

Which brings me to:

Take what works for you and leave what you don't.

That should show up at the end of every post

This isn't a total threadjack, I've been following your thread with interest, Walloped, and I agree with a few of the comments.

I don't see the worst behavior from your wife. I think she's in shock right now.

This is one I agree with. She is still in "regret" right now, with probably a lot of shame too, realizing just how used she was by OM. I don't think this is all bad, considering the timeframe. I think she has a good chance to find remorse, but she needs to get into IC to deal with herself, to realize that the pity party isn't going to help, and to learn to cope with her feelings.

When/if she finally starts to get it, she will be thinking about you.

I can see her getting there. Of course she's going to feel shame, guilt, regret at first. IF she uses that to find remorse, then I think you may have a shot at R -- IF that's the road you chose to go down. Totally up to you, but I'd give yourself time before making that decision.

Chances are she is still in a place where she is totally focused on herself. Give her some time to get to that realization on her own.

I think it's a totally natural reaction in the first stages, a form of self-preservation, if you will. But once she starts to look outside herself, that's when remorse will or wont set in. It may take some time for that, and it will certainly take the help of an IC for her.

Walloped,

Someone recently posted something here saying he/she was "rooting" for me to divorce my wife.

If anything I root for R if I think there's at all a chance, up until proven otherwise. And I think in your case there's a good chance, if you chose. And that's the key, it's your choice, after you get past all this raw emotion. Take a couple months to make that choice, see where she goes, if she does the work.

[This message edited by tbkjcn at 5:02 PM, August 14th (Friday)]

Hey. I'm about to head into the house, but I read all of your recent posts on the way home and I just wanted to pop back in here to say thank you. You guys (gender neutral) are awesome.

Well thought out comments tbkjcn.

Whall,

People are going to come in with with well-meaning suggestions which may or may not be meant to sway you.

It doesn't matter. In a week or two (or whatever, everyone is different) the man who stars at the ceiling at 3am is going to know in his gut what the right decision for you to execute is.

None of what we say will impact your decisions, what we say will impact your course of actions which will allows you to make your own decision on your own terms.

Here are my suggestions on what to do.

The first thing is, take some pressure off yourself. There is no need to decide right away whether to D or not. In fact it would be foolish to make such a decision - either way - right now.

You are stressed beyond belief. Overloaded emotionally. Exhausted. In shock. That is NOT the time to make a life altering decision.. And make no mistake -- D IS a life altering decision. Not just for you and your W, but for the kids also.

D may ultimately be what is best for you; but maybe not.

You need time to regain your equilibrium. Time to let the raw rush of emotions swamping your brain recede enough that you can use your analytical skills in a more calm and reasoned manner. Don't feel pressured by others to rush right out and file.

Over the years I have consistently seen the long time SIers counsel that you should wait at least 6 months (and many say a year) before you try to make that decision. That advice is consistent with my own experience. And yes, there are exceptions where the WS refuses to stop and continues on with the A rubbing the BSs nose in it. That is not your situation.

I think that if you can just tell yourself " no decision needed for 6 months" and then stop trying to come to an immediate conclusion on it, that you will find yourself more able to begin regaining control of your emotions. And once you do that, you can begin processing what has to be processed from a more fact based outlook than an emotional one. And once you get there, you will begin to feel more in control of your life.

My second subject is your W and her reactions. You have commented that you think her reactions are based on fear and you want them based on true remorse and feelings for you. I get that and fully agree that if there is not true remorse and true feelings for you, D is best. BUT think about this for a moment. Of course she is afraid. She knows she may have totally ruined and thrown away a life most women would kill for. She IS terrified. And fear and self preservation are basic instincts hard wired into humans. They come in unbidden and can take control for a while. Remorse, true remorse, seldom comes immediately to a WS. Read enough stories on SI and you will see that is true. It takes time for the head to emerge from the ass and the fog to dissipate. In my view I would rather see, in this early period, the fear your W is showing than the blame shifting, marital history re-writing that many BHs face during the JFO period. Your W at least is already acknowledging that it is all on her and not on you. A head start over many WWs.

Now it is of course possible that in the end it is all only about her and that you are not important to her. Perhaps what she is doing now is all a lie and she is one great actress. But maybe her feelings for you are real. Maybe she will find true remorse and become someone capable of again deserving your love. Only time will tell you which it is. Another reason to give it time.

I can tell that you want to love her; that you want to have reason to work on R and to succeed at it. From what I am seeing in your posts, I think you will have that chance. Her reactions and actions just sound/ feel like they are coming from the right place. So the question is are they real? Watch her actions. Her words are important, but words can be lies. Watch her actions because even a great actress can't keep up an act indefinitely. Watch and quietly evaluate. Eventually you will know which way to go. You will know; you will feel what is right.

Look, there is no doubt that life will never be what you expected and that you, your M and the way you see her will have changed permanently. Those changes may be enough to require D. But they don't have to be IF you decide you would like to stay married to her and IF she does what she needs to do and convinces you by both word and deeds that she is safe for you, has fixed what was broken and will remain dedicated to you and your happiness. There are many examples of that happening here on SI. My W had a 1 1/2 year A that ended in 1980. It nearly destroyed me. Today is our 45th anniversary.

So give yourself a break. Don't feel pressed to decide. Work on healing yourself. Personally, I would tell her that you are giving it 6 months before you decide. That she has those months to make you decide that you want to keep trying. Then tell her what you need from her; what requirements you have. Then carefully watch her actions over these months. And you know, if she starts displaying actions or personality issues that convince you that it will never work, you can always pull the plug early. But if she does it all correctly, maybe your M will endure.

Whatever path you choose, I wish you peace.

The intensity of your wife's hatred to other man is a gauge of how "in love" she was. Yes, she was "in love." Knowing your wife this many years, you know her to have integrity and to have character.

What happened to that integrity and character? Did it disappear? While the affair occurred, could you see that her integrity and character changed? The truth is, her wife maintained her integrity and character, EXCEPT for this one time cheating that lasted months and months. Her character and integrity disappearing day by day as this went on. Why was she then willing to see her character and integrity slip away? Because, she was "in love," fantasy beckoned.

WHY? There are reasons. Probably it is multiple circumstances. I will not call it a "perfect storm," but no doubt there were several circumstances and situations and timing that made her weak, and at just that right time came the other man, who your wife did not see him coming. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time and then, confused, made some bad choices. She got convinced that she was a victim and she "deserved" this for her. The other man didn't come on as a romantic interest, she was known to him as a philanthropic person involved in the same pursuits as her. She thought that "connection" or "spark" was coincidence, not other man's nefarious plan and plot. "It just happened" she thought.

What are the circumstances? Lack of communication, true open communication, without a doubt. True genuine resentment about your not being enthusiastic enough to do more tasks related to the upcoming wedding of your daughter. What else? I don't know. But it was something else, too. I didn't know this until I was cheated on, and it was not my situation, but there is a huge increase in affairs by women after a child leaves the nest, become a first-time "mother in law," becoming possibly soon a "grandma," also possibly soon menopause and related body changes. She took you for granted, she looked at you like a "given," that you loved her "unconditionally," you would never leave, you loved her too much, and she took you for granted, all you did for her, has been through with her, and how much you loved her, and other man focused her on this resentment over this one little thing.

I think how it starts is in a group, joking about her saying you don't help enough, others discussing, commiserating, and others (women) praising to other man for his dedication, then other man focusing on your wife one-on-one, subtly first and then no-so-subtly widening that wedge between you and your husband, and then him sliding it in.

k8la

she's a willing victim of a predator because she lacked the boundaries and moral fortitude to do the right thing as he made his first attempt to groom her. She had not made the choice in advance, because she never expected it or realized it would come her way. Once a woman recognizes a predator, the signs are really obvious, but a naive woman - nope - won't see it coming.

Your wife is not in love with other man now. But she is confused as to how she let this happen. She probably knows less about how it happened than you do. Is she self-aware about how "naive" she is, how she always initially assumes others have good intentions.

As far as her being too tired, just had spent the afternoon with other man then you hugged her, I would assume if she said she had sex about 30 times, and thus it probably was even longer, over several months, then probably there were times when she turned you down, claimed headache or tired.

Your wife is OK now. She is not remorseful, but cheaters don't get that right away. She is doing what you ask for, which is about as good as it gets at this stage. Remorseful will come, but it may be a month or so. It is a roller coaster. Be aware of that and don't let the emotions drive you up or plummet you down. However high or low at the moment, within 24 hours you likely will feel the opposite.

Your wife's affair reminds me of Buddy the Elf. First other man told your wife,

"I think you're really beautiful and I feel really warm when I'm around you and my tongue swells up."

"You have such a pretty face, you should be on a Christmas card."

Other man proposed to your wife,

“First we’ll make snow angels for a two hours, then we’ll go ice skating, then we’ll eat a whole roll of Tollhouse Cookiedough as fast as we can, and then we’ll snuggle.”

"I thought maybe we could make ginger bread houses, and eat cookie dough, and go ice skating, and maybe even hold hands."

After other man reeled your wife in, your wife said,

"i love you. i love you! I LOVE YOU!"

Walking down the Upper West Side, holding hands, in public, she thought,

"I'm in love, I'm in love, and I don't care who knows it!!!"

At that point, she had reached fantasy land,

"I passed through the seven levels of the Candy Cane forest, through the sea of swirly twirly gum drops, and then I walked through the Lincoln Tunnel."

"Uh, in a magical land called new York City."

Then, you found out, confronted, and your wife discovered about the true nature of the other man, she says about other man,

"You sit on a throne of lies."

"You don't smell like Santa. You smell like beef and cheese."

You and SIL tried to get your wife to wake up and not be so naive, to see the world like it really is,

"Well, there are some things you should know. First off, you see gum on the street, leave it there. It isn't free candy."

"Second, there are, like, thirty Ray's Pizzas. They all claim to be the original. But the real one's on 11th."

"And if you see a sign that says "Peep Show", that doesn't mean that they're letting you look at the new toys before Christmas."

"By the way don't eat the yellow snow."

And your wife feeling stupid about what she has done, and full of regret (if not yet remorseful), she says to you,

"I'm sorry I ruined your lives and crammed eleven cookies into the VCR."

"I'm a cotton-headed ninny-muggins."

"Listen, some people, they just Lose sight Of what's important in life. That doesn't mean they can't find their way again, huh? Maybe all they need Is just a little Christmas spirit."

And you, thinking of this whole thing, this whole nonsensical affair, you just have to say,

"SON of a NUT-cracker!"

You want to tell off other man,

"Hey, jackweed, I get more action in a week than you've had in your entire life. I've got houses in L.A., Paris and Vail. In each one, a 70 inch plasma screen. So I suggest you wipe that stupid smile off your face before I come over there and SMACK it off! You feeling strong, my friend? Call me elf one more time."

You definitely have become "an angry elf."

"Of course you're not an elf. You're six-foot-three and had a beard since you were fifteen."

In your quiet time, thinking too much, you imagine you must feel the same as

"A tribe of asparagus children, but they're self-conscious about the way their pee smells."

I agree with WK55, Eric1 and Nononsense.

She took you for granted, she looked at you like a "given," that you loved her "unconditionally," you would never leave, you loved her too much, and she took you for granted, all you did for her, has been through with her, and how much you loved her, and other man focused her on this resentment over this one little thing.

wk55hn nailed it.

Women tend to value companionship more than men and everyone values it more and more as they grow older. I think it’s hitting your wife that she may have to live without you. Something she never considered.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 9:04 AM, August 15th (Saturday)]