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As a BS, do you wish you had had your own affairs?

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PizzaMyHeart ( new member #82739) posted at 2:31 AM on Sunday, February 5th, 2023

emergent8 - Appreciate the opinion actually. And I don't disagree. It is.. complicated. For me it's part of larger arc - a belief that times have changed and monogamy is an outmoded construct. I could not authentically try to repair the relationship without factoring in that belief. Also, I have no interest in going back to "what we had" in the marriage since it was obviously built on lies and deceit. This new bargain is at least based on honesty. Romantic "Love" is an overrated concept / it's also a very western construct. Many other cultures in the world don't follow the notion of romantic love at all. I have definitely come around to this perspective. Oh, and the concept of Trust is also overrated. Honesty and straight-forwardness trumps everything. Almost every affair is born out of bad communication in some respect.

To be clear, I have a genuine desire to try to take a shot at repairing the relationship - it's just that the marriage as it was is *dead*. Anything going forward is marriage 2.0 and I am using the opportunity to strike a new bargain. It has to be *completely* different if it has any hope in hell of working. Absent these posts is the fact that I am also committed to do better. Any BS would be wise to do some introspection - strong men blame themselves and take ownership, weak men blame others. To know the details you'd see she is obviously at fault, but I still own what happened. You must own everything that happens in your life - the book Extreme Ownership by ex-navy seal Jocko Willink is a treatise in this form of living.

Anyway, I know my perspective is not typical. I think it might be worth starting a new thread to discuss the practicality of monogamy in western society in the year 2023. We're a selfish people, always wanting more, looking for a better deal and rarely content with what we have. Just look around, it is plain to see.

I do appreciate everyone chiming in with their thoughts and I respect your opinions and believe in healthy debate. Next few months should be nothing if not interesting!

[This message edited by PizzaMyHeart at 2:34 AM, Sunday, February 5th]

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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 4:12 AM on Sunday, February 5th, 2023

Because of the betrayal I have already made up my mind that any reconciliation would mandatorily involve a permanent "hall pass" for me. It would be a blatant double standard however, and no such rights would exist for her.

For me it's part of larger arc - a belief that times have changed and monogamy is an outmoded construct. I could not authentically try to repair the relationship without factoring in that belief. Also, I have no interest in going back to "what we had" in the marriage since it was obviously built on lies and deceit. This new bargain is at least based on honesty. Romantic "Love" is an overrated concept / it's also a very western construct. Many other cultures in the world don't follow the notion of romantic love at all.

I have to admit.. I'm very curious. How do you justify the double standard? If "monogamy is an outmoded construct", wouldn't that apply to both of you? Why would you even be disappointed that monogamy had failed in your marriage if it's just a "western construct" and has no value?

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

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DroppedShoe ( member #80500) posted at 1:26 PM on Sunday, February 5th, 2023

By this point I am sick of the gaslighting, the lies, the cover-up. If I ever date again (now it seems unlikely) it would only be with someone with no history of cheating. So no, I don’t want to be a cheater, don’t want to date a cheater. I’d rather just stay home with my dogs and a book.

Let this be the lose weight kind of stress not the gain weight kind.

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DroppedShoe ( member #80500) posted at 1:36 PM on Sunday, February 5th, 2023

grin I just woke up from a nightmare I blame on this query; I was a camp counselor and had provided alcohol and had sex with the older HS kids. I felt guilty and wrote out a confession letter ( this is where the dream began, missed out on the party part) and I was waiting in the office to be fired and/or arrested. I was asking myself if they would understand if I said it was a RA grin

Let this be the lose weight kind of stress not the gain weight kind.

posts: 64   ·   registered: Aug. 9th, 2022   ·   location: Los Angeles
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Sigyn ( member #80576) posted at 3:33 PM on Wednesday, February 8th, 2023

I'm thinking of my WH's face right now and I just can't see that affairs are actually pleasurable when taken in the context of someone's real life. In the moment I'm sure sex and validation felt good but we don't live in a vacuum so at some point that sex and validation has to work as part of the complexities of someone's real life. My WH doesn't look like a happy man. He doesn't look fulfilled and validated. He doesn't appear to be objectively better off in any way. He seemed okay enough while he was living his second life, but the more I discover about it, the uglier and more self-hating his secrets seem to have been, even for him, even in the way he felt about himself. It doesn't seem like affair sex is very joyful, celebratory and self-loving. So even if I removed the moral/vows part of it from the equation, it just doesn't seem like it's enriching in any way. Not in the fun and exciting way dating as a single person is.

I have really wanted to understand my WH's head and mindset and I've tried, thinking about what it would feel like having an entire relationship on the side with sex and getting to know another person and falling in love secretly while still being an active part of my marriage - but... I don't know, the things that are so much fun to experience when single seem so exhausting, convoluted and with so many clouds hanging over them as a married person doing it on the side. Affairs just feel like they have so many strings attached that they wouldn't be satisfying with all the stress and secrecy and lies and covering up and hiding evidence and apps and souvenirs and thoughts and feelings and fake excuses and fake appointments or meetings. With all that hanging over my head I don't know how I'd even get into the mindset of 'romance' or even sex.

I almost relate it to someone being drunk, where the person is kind of acting like someone who is having fun but when you're looking at them it's clear they're not really processing, not relating to others, not actually genuinely happy or vibing with the world around them. They're just in their own world where they think their thoughts and feelings are profound but a sober person listening to them just hears gibberish and confusion. And yeah I do overdrink sometimes so I know when I get up in the morning that my own profound drunk thoughts are equally stupid to me when I'm sober.

I don't want to be in an entire sexual or emotional relationship that feels that way.

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 4:21 PM on Wednesday, February 8th, 2023

strong men blame themselves....

For what? If you're blaming yourself for your W's A ... you're just not that strong, unless you literally forced your W to cheat.

I'm happy taking responsibility for myself, but I'll not take responsibility for what my W chose to do all by herself.

What kind of person will have a sexual relationship with you if you tell them, 'I'm married, but my W is fine with me fucking others'?

I have no problem with a person seeking an M in which he is not monogamous and their partner is. I'm just not sure about the state of mind of anyone who would accept that type of M. But if that's honestly negotiated and freely accepted by all parties, so be it, even though I don't understand how it will work.

I'm all for the ideas behind 'consenting adults, with few limitations. Double standards? Not for me....

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

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OldBeachOwl ( member #81048) posted at 4:43 PM on Tuesday, February 14th, 2023

I have had several opportunities since DDay..one from a close female friend of WW who invited me over to her house for drinks and "to read Shakespeare's love sonnets to her in her bed".. I was shocked that she would make such a suggestion, then realized my WW must have previously told her about her affair and OC from the AP.However, I value my integrity too highly and will never do to WW what she did to me. Either that or dome women have a highly honed unhappiness in marriage detection ability.

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Popshack ( new member #82854) posted at 7:43 PM on Tuesday, February 14th, 2023

As a BS yes I did. I strongly felt the need to retaliate after 2 bouts of his cheating - 1 EA only 2 EA + PA. I had never been with anyone else before our marriage and after our marriage until D days. It was a shock and broke me entirely. I was too proud and vain to do something so cowardly but I did anyways. Not proud of it. But I am glad I got it over with.

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HeBrokeMe68 ( new member #82370) posted at 5:52 AM on Wednesday, February 15th, 2023

I am 5 months post D-Day with endless trickle truths & lies. HELL yes I still think of cheating just to make him feel the searing pain & despair I feel. Its a pain that you will only ever know if you've been in this position. But...theres more.

I was a former cheater at a young age. It took 2 decades of therapy to heal. Now, here I am at 53 years old in a 9 year relationship that I thought was the love of my lifetime and he turned out to be a sex addict. He had over 50+ women (erotic massages + escorts + sugar babies) in the final two years of our relationship. The pain of finally letting my guards down and loving someone with my entire heart & soul AND TO BE BETRAYED IN THE WORST POSSIBLE WAY has absolutely destroyed me in every way possible.

I still carry the pain of my younger years of betrayal with me. It haunts me to this day and I always regret my actions no even knowing at the time what was driving them. Now I know...but, I can tell you that being the betrayed partner is FAR MORE DEVASTATING than being the cheater. I'm told by those who have taken revenge that it only makes matters much much worse.

I'm still holding strong to my core integrity, but I can tell you that its not easy. After a childhoold of abuse and a lifetime of struggles that this life of mine has been filled with misery and heartache and my anger wants to make him feel the betrayal trauma I suffer from. Or maybe I'm just done and its my way of telling him.

Betrayed SpouseD-Day Aug 29 2022 w/ongoing trickle truths. He did it to punish me.

I love him. I hate him.

Trying to reconcile

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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 1:23 PM on Wednesday, February 15th, 2023

OBO -- Have you considered the possibility that the friend of your WW's who invited you to read sexy stuff to her in bed (I'd suggest Anais Nin rather than Shakespeare) was actually put up to this by your WW? If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on that hypothesis. I envision your WW's friend having confided in your WW over the years that she finds you sexually attractive, and your WW now acting on this knowledge by giving her friend a "reverse hall pass" to go for it. In a twisted way, it's possible that your WW likely intended this as a secret act of kindness or a sort of twisted mercy toward you.

PizzaMyHeart

As to your thesis that long-term R with your WW would necessarily include a one-sided hall pass in your favor, forever. Certainly, parties to a marriage are free to define what their commitment means in terms of sexual activity. There is a small sub-set of individuals who practice versions of ethical non-monogamy. Your concept of the permanent one-sided hall pass is a species of that. It's a more honest approach to the concept than that taken by your WW, who arrogated that right to herself in secret, and in a manner, I gather, which was a profound betrayal to you. Hers was a secret, one-sided open marriage. To stay in the marriage, you now want an expressly agreed-upon one-sided open marriage. I understand the logic completely. Unlike others here, I don't find that concept cockamamie in the least. But I do think it's a long shot to expect your WW to agree to it merely for the convenience of co-parenting in the context of an intact "on paper" marriage, rather than co-parenting as divorced single adults. At least it's not very common that we see a WW here, who is committed to R, agreeing to such a thing. You provide few details and don't really tell your story here, so any advice we give is, to some extent, shooting in the dark.

As to your larger question of "why monogamy", I do agree that in the US we seem to elevate romantic love and monogamous commitment more than most other cultures and nations around the world and through history. In particular, most of our peer developed western nations have a more relaxed approach to extramarital sex.

I think the answer is that our nation's focus on romance derives from our restless, peripatetic spirit. The nation was founded by people who got onto flimsy, super-dangerous small wooden sailing vessels to cross the incredibly dangerous North Atlantic ocean, journeying to a place they had never been, a place none of their parents nor siblings had seen, knowing that, in the leaving, they would probably never again see their childhood home nor any of the family left behind. The nation was spread by people who put all of their belongings into a Calistoga wagon to cross the Great Plains, the Rocky Mountains, the Sierra, on foot, facing all manner of dangers, again to reach a place they had never seen. Nowadays, young people all the time put their belongings in a U-Haul and move across the nation to find their fortune. I did precisely that, at age 21, with my then-GF, who later became my WW.

In the doing, we couple up and we rely totally and completely on the commitment and fortitude of our partner. Once we reach our destination, we must hit the ground running, and our success in the new land depends 100% on the unflagging commitment of our spouse. Fundamentally, we are a romantic nation. Mobility, both geological and economic, is infused in the American weltanschauung. Mobility is fraught with risk and difficulty and it is highly isolating. Its success often depends upon having a partner upon whom one can rely. A newly relocated couple is typically alone in the world, with little or no nearby support from extended family. Sexual infidelity in that context can undermine or destroy every aspect of one's life structure.

Compare to, say, Southern Italy, where social and economic structures have been set in stone for centuries. There, the same handful of rich families have been rich for generations. If you are born to a poor fisherman, you yourself are almost 100% likely to die a poor fisherman. Probably in the same house you were born in, or one nearby. Extended family remains in place and intact, offering a generous safety net and comfortable cushion against the vagaries of life, but almost no concept of mobility. You'll marry a schoolgirl from your village, whose parents and grandparents and great-grandparents were school chums with your parents and grandparents and great-grandparents. The two of you will not need one another in the way American couples need one another. Marriages there are at least in part business mergers between families, mainly to facilitate creating and raising progeny. You work cooperatively to do this, but you have a great deal of input and assistance from your joint extended families. Seeking a bit of extracurricular fun in that context does not afford any serious threat to the stability of the life of either spouse.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:05 AM, Thursday, February 16th]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

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inmisery1 ( member #30905) posted at 1:05 AM on Friday, March 3rd, 2023

I do think about it. A long time ago, while I was engaged, I went out for drinks with friends, my ex boyfriend followed me out to my car, told me how lonely he was and would I follow him back to his house. He was someone I had been really in love with at one time, I still had feelings for him. I turned him down and went home because I had integrity. Yea...sometimes I do wish I had gone home with him. Actually after A1, I thought about looking him up but he was married and I couldn't do that to another woman also I had hopes of reconciling. I found out later his wife had passed a few years before that and my H is a serial cheater and was still in contact with the OW at the time. I do kinda wish I had my own affairs, at least I would feel like someone is interested in having sex with me.

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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 1:22 AM on Friday, March 3rd, 2023

Sorry to threadjack... Pizza, no way someone that cheated on you in monogamy doesn't cheat on you in one-sided non-monogamy. It's laughable on the face of it.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

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RecklessForgiver ( member #82891) posted at 5:00 PM on Friday, March 3rd, 2023

The answer probably has everything to do with who the BS is and what core values they have.

For me, I am just wired for monogamy. I could not have an affair without damaging myself and my own sense of integrity because so much of how I live my life comes from a place of empathy. That means any affair would become a nightmare where I was feeling how I was hurting everyone involved! Yikes! No thanks.

Of course, these are all the reasons it was so hard for me to understand that my spouse WAS capable of an affair....

RecklessForgiver

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BOAZ367 ( member #82836) posted at 6:54 AM on Sunday, March 5th, 2023

I'm a BH, my wife had an affair with a coworker. We were both very young at the time. My immediate response after the "how could you" blow up was flight. I left and drove all night and don't remember the following days. Supposedly it was a singular event. Maybe once physical but a close connection continued. She remained at work for about 5 years which were excruciating times at best. During that time opportunities were few for a revenge affair. Had opportunity presented itself, without a doubt I would have acted out. I'm not proud of that and thankful I didn't stoop so low. We went on to have a family. Upon the arrival of our first child, that is when an element of safety began. Our respective families have always be very close. None of which has knowledge of the affair. This next phase of our marraige my career had me in a place where male/female collaboration was the norm. Physical and emotional attraction with more than one person occured. Out of town travel was frequent and opportunities to stray were many. I never acted on any of these. Later in life I am proud of my integrity and glad that I didn't cheat. I still have sadness, she was my first and only, I was not hers. We both rug swept a lot. Recent news of someone very close experiencing infidelity has opened the floodgates to old trauma for me. I have a good counselor helping me with Cognitive Behavior Therapy for ptsd & depression. Thank God for so many tools to help those of us going through this including this forum. There was very little help when I first learned of my wife's infidelity.

BOAZ367

posts: 55   ·   registered: Feb. 5th, 2023   ·   location: East coast
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