Thanks again to everyone for their posts over the weekend. After talking with my wife for a few more hours on Sunday, I was emotionally done. So I told her we need to stop, and asked my girls if they wanted to go out to a movie. They said yes, so we went to see the new Mission Impossible movie (I love those). Perfect summer movie. Only downside was Alec Baldwin – whom I cannot stand. I really believe he’s been good in just 3 movies and all are over 20 years old (Beetljuice, The Hunt for Red October, and Glengarry Glen Ross). Nice to escape, clear my head, and spend some time with the girls.
I also called my doctor, who’s a buddy. I did tell him a bit of what’s going on and told him about my lack of sleep and shakes, sweating, hyper breathing, etc. He prescribed Ambien for sleep. Told me he would prescribe Ativan for anxiety, but that we should hold first and see if more/better sleep helps since apparently there are some interactions between the two. I did ask about my being…umm…unresponsive? He said it’s totally normal given what I’m dealing with. Funny guy. Asked me if I was planning on having sex with my wife anytime soon. I said no. And he asked, “So, then what’s the problem?” Truth is, he’s right. The concept of any kind of…release…hasn’t even entered my mind. I just have zero interest and even when a stray thought does enter my mind, I immediately associate sex with her and POS and then I get nauseous. Basically, he told me to get emotionally healthy (was happy I was in IC) and then he said the rest will sort itself out one I sort myself out.
On Friday afternoon, I had my wife call one of her co-volunteers from the house phone to ask if POS was still there. Apparently not. On Thursday, Mrs. La-di-dah reshuffled everyone’s shifts because POS “had a family problem and could no longer volunteer his time and services.”
So…the weekend. I’ve tried to put this to paper so many times and I just couldn’t do it. I think it’s all about not being able to detach. Anyway, she was very good this weekend. Seemed honest (see? I was going to write she was honest, but then I thought, how do I truly know? So I wrote “seemed” and that sucks.) Her sister and my BIL came over Friday afternoon and collected the boys to go out for dinner and to hang out at their house, and the girls went with. Very awkward with my BIL – not a bad guy, but I could tell he was not happy about this whole thing. My take is he sees his wife supporting her sister and he gets it, but maybe he’s worried about apples falling and trees, and whether she thinks cheating is okay? I don’t know. Anyway, I have these notes I scribbled over the weekend, I don’t have the energy to write it cohesively. I think I’ll just do it as topics or like a FAQ. Maybe that’ll help me as I prepare materials for the polygraph test, which by the way I decided I am now going to go forward with. That decision came Sunday afternoon as did a few others – but I’ll get to that later.
Anyway, I don’t think I shouted once the whole weekend. I did have a few zingers that I shouldn’t have said, but those were in a sarcastic tone. No yelling. I’m proud of me. I basically spoke very slowly and softly the entire time. But I was also a little cold. I didn’t comfort her when she cried and pleaded. I just held my ground, not raising my voice, and barreled on. So I reiterated to my wife that honesty is paramount. That I have no clue what the future will bring, but that I can guarantee that we will not have a future together if she’s not totally and unequivocally honest now. From here on out that’s how it’s got to be. It’s important for me to get answers, important for me to process and heal. It’s important because for the last 5 months or so our marriage has been based on dishonesty and falsehood. That is not a marriage and if she can’t be honest now when it’s all on the line, then might as well just call it quits. I also said that I want us to visit with a polygraph examiner and submit her answers and that if there is one thing that is off, it’s over. I don’t care if she lied about what she ate for lunch one day. There are no second chances. Finally, I told her that she should not be scared about what she says and how it’ll impact me – the truth is more important and frankly I was in so much pain as it was what’s a bit more? Just get it all over with and then maybe I’ll be able to deal – the fear of the unknown was killing me. She agreed to all of the above immediately.
She said she’s scared. Scared I’ll hate her even more. Scared we can never come back from this. Scared that I may never recover from what she did. Scared that nothing she’ll do will help me. Scared that she’ll lose me and the kids. Scared for their future. And ours. I told her that I’m sorry that all those fears weren’t enough to prevent her from going down the road she did, but here we are. All we can do now is do what’s right. She failed the hard choices before (what should have been an easy choice). Don’t fail this one. So she sucked it up. And off we went.
Timeline. She was detailed. I’ll give her that. Not much changed, just a lot more details. It didn’t change though. Started in January. He started hitting on her. But subtly. She looked back and realized what he was doing but didn’t see it then. She didn’t see him as a player. Just a really nice guy who helped out with kids as a way to help him through his divorce. She volunteered at 3 organizations – two local and this one in the city. She only saw him once a week. She was talking to another two ladies about the wedding and he joined in and that’s how it started. Coffee and lunches started in February. She listed the places they went. MOMA was in April. She started volunteering more in the city and less locally in mid-March. Looking back, she said it was likely because of him. She said she didn’t know she was doing it. But the numbers don’t lie. First time she slept with him was May 6th. There’s a day I’ll never ever forget. On a Wednesday afternoon. Can you believe it? A Wednesday? Once a week throughout May and then mostly twice a week. Two weeks (one June and one July was 3 times). In the end, a total of 22 times. She did not sleep with him the day my brother saw them. No weekends. No evenings. No hotels. Always at his apartment. Not in our house. I can tell you right now, I’m probably never going to the Upper West Side again. And fuck MOMA. He wanted to take her to the Met (we like opera – don’t judge – I like Metallica too – I have a wide range – grew up on 60’s and 70’s music, know every ABBA and Air Supply song, was a teen for 80’s pop, and I love classic rock). Anyway, they didn’t go. I asked her why not – was a delineation between fantasy world vs real world. Daytime was fantasy. Evenings were home life. Her days helped her with the evenings and her evenings at home helped her days. I don’t know what the hell that even means! She explained it as that her fantasy helped her deal with the stress and whatever feelings she had about her life. But her family life helped her feel good about herself so that it was okay what she was doing during the day.
This is what we covered from Friday night to Sunday night, with numerous breaks in between. My 19 year old took my 16 year old daughter and the boys to Splish Splash on Saturday (water park in Long Island), so if you were there, you might have bumped into my kids. Anyway we had the house to ourselves. So, here are the questions and answers, and most of the questions were provided by you based on your posts, so thank you. (By the way, I re-read what I wrote below and I’m sorry for the changes in perspectives. I was reading off of notes and replaying parts off of my iPhone recording, and it came out easier to write as if she was talking. Didn’t realize how much I jumped back and forth. Sorry if it’s confusing.):
1)Were there any other affairs? Inappropriate relationships? Things she did that she would never do directly in front of me? No. Nothing. She swore over and over. This was the one and only. Thank God. You know something? That pisses me off? That I should be grateful that she only broke her vows for one extended period and not two? How fucked up is that?
2)Any one night stands? No. No.
3)Anything else that I would categorize as inappropriate behavior with another man or woman (hey – who the hell knows)? The occasional banter here and there, might constitute flirting, but she never intended it that way. But I was around for that. It was usually in public when we were together during social occasions – lighthearted, meaningless stuff. And no way on the women thing.
4)Do you love him? No.
5)Did you love him? Yes. She really lost it before answering. Answered yes and then said it must not have been love because she can’t stand the thought of him now so it must’ve been infatuation or just like teenage love which isn’t based on anything substantial because how then could it change so quickly? But yes, at the time she thought she was in love and felt like she was in love with him.
6)Why do you hate him? Because he played you? Partly. She feels used but that’s not the main reason.
7)So why do you hate him? Because he and I caused you to be in so much pain.
8)So you hate yourself too? Yes.
9)How do you feel about me? I love you. I feel so sorry for the pain I aused you hate to see you hurting so much.
10)Do you love what I do for you or provide? No. I appreciate it, but don’t love that. I love that you do it but it’s not why I love you.
11)Why do you love me? Your kindness, good heart and good nature, love, inner strength, integrity. I could never have done what she did.
12)So why wasn’t that enough for you? I don’t know. That's the million dollar question, right? And it's killing me that I don't know.
13)Are you in love with me? I don’t know. I thought I was and I feel that I am and want to say yes, but how can I be if I did this?
14)Why did you hold hands in public? Didn’t you think people could see? I didn’t think at all. I just wanted to be close to him. I was like a silly teenager.
15)Were you planning on leaving me if my brother hadn’t caught you? No. She never thought about it. It never occurred to her. She was living in two worlds. And then she said that I am not going to believe her but she was actually getting tired of the whole thing. She loved him, but it was exhausting and they really didn’t have much in common. She was a 42 year old mother of 5 and she was acting like she was 20. It felt great, but she started questioning why she was doing this. And then her world fell apart.
16)You’re right. I don’t believe you. Why should I? You have no reason to. But hopefully the polygraph will show I’m being honest. At least now. At least now I’m finally being honest.
17)What did you tell him during the first phone call after I confronted you? She was in a panic. Told him my brother saw them. And that I found emails. He was happy about it. Her world had come to an end and he was happy. Said they could now be together in the open. She should leave and go with him. She told him he’s crazy. She never wanted that. She told him she loved him and if he loved her he’d let her go. That she loves me and her family and she could never leave them. She told him she’d always remember him. That he was special (she broke down – couldn’t believe what a fool she was). That he made me feel so special, and wanted, and loved and she’ll always treasure that. He kept trying to convince her, she begged him to let her trying to save her marriage. She begged. He simply said they’ll talk more. Hence all the other calls that week. And the one the following week.
18)Have you been in any form of contact with POS since we agreed on No Contact? Yes.
19)So you lied about that? Yes. I was so scared what you’d do if I told you.
20)Did you call him? No. He called her at her sister’s house. Her sister wasn’t home. She answered.
21)How did he get her number? He knew her name. Probably looked it up.
22)How did he know you were at your sister’s? Don’t know. He knows we’re close. She guesses he was just trying his luck.
23)When was the call? Thursday. It was after her conversation with her sister when she was so angry she wanted to call him. The next day the phone rang and it was him. She knew from the caller ID. So she answered. She said his name and before he could say anything beyond her name she called him a lying sleazy SOB, that she hated him, never wanted to even hear his name again and told him to drop dead and wished him an eternity in hell and then hung up. She swore over and over that was it.
24)Other than that, when was the last time you spoke with POS? That was it. Before that it was the Friday after I found out. He called all week and then 3 times on Friday. She didn’t answer two calls and then answered one and told him to leave her alone. Then the Thursday call.
25)Has POS sent any messages through her co-volunteers? No. Only the one where they said he asked about her. That’s it.
26)Did you give your co-volunteers your new number? No.
27)Either new number? No.
28)Who else has your new number? (Got a list – parents, my mom, the kids, sister, my brother and SIL, a few friends.)
29)Do your friends know about your affair? No.
30)Have any of them ever encouraged you to have an affair? No.
31)Have any of them ever had an affair? She said one has but she’s not going to tell me who (I wouldn’t have asked). She did say that her husband found out and they’re not doing well.
32)Who knows about your affair? (POS, Mrs. La-di-dah, her parents, my mom, the girls, our son-in-law, her sister and BIL, my brother and SIL, she assumes a few co-volunteers, that’s it)
33)Do you have or have you ever had a burner phone? No.
34)Do you have or have you ever had a secret email account? No.
35)Did you ever buy POS anything? She was terrified. She whispered yes.
36)What? Cufflinks. For his birthday. Onyx and white gold.
37)How much did they cost? She was really nervous. So, I made her pull the cc bill. About $900 (she handles the finances so hiding this was never a problem).
38)What the hell is wrong with you? I don’t know. Shouted it repeatedly.
39)Did he ever buy you anything? Beyond lunches and coffee. Just lingerie. Fucking cheapskate. Bought her two sets. She went to get them. Slutty stuff. Nothing tasteful. Classless scum sucker. She threw them out in front of me. I didn’t want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.
40)Did she wear them for him? Yes.
41)Any other gifts or mementos? No.
42)Any letters? No.
43)Do you have any pictures of the two of you together on your phone or email account? Yes. Phone.
44)Explicit pictures? No.
45)Why haven’t you deleted them? Because I didn’t want you to think I was hiding anything anymore. So I was waiting to show you before deleting them (why she hadn’t already thrown out the lingerie). One picture of him by himself and a couple of selfies of the two of them. Can you believe it? Like my teenage girls. I’m surprised they didn’t make “duck faces.” How immature can you get? By the way, fucker looks kind of like Adrian Brody with white hair. Huge schnozz. Tall and gangly. What the hell? I mean, really?
46)Have you looked at the pics since I found out? Yes. But only during the first week. After the weekend, she never looked at them again but was scared to delete them.
47)Have you sent him any inappropriate pictures of yourself? No. Thank God. The thought of him having explicit photos of her, I think would have killed me.
48)Have you deleted any texts or email between you and POS? No.
49)How do you feel about the affair now? Ashamed. Horrified. Stupid. Dumb. Whoreish. Dirty. Unworthy. She just kept going.
Okay. The other stuff. Sex. Sorry. This is going to take me forever to get through.
50)Why did you sleep with him? He invited her back to his place. She agreed. She knew what he was asking for. She felt close to him. He got her. Validated her. She was feeling so empty. So useless. He made her feel important. Something beyond a housewife and mother. Special. It was empowering. She didn’t do it for him. She did it for herself. Huge ego boost. He wanted her. She knew. He was basically falling over himself for her. She felt powerful.
51)And after the first time? She hated herself. She freaked. Felt dirty. Self-loathing. Panicked that I’d notice. Tried to make herself clean. Swore she’d never do it again.
52)So why did you? He asked again. Practically begged. The power was intoxicating. She felt wonderful. It got easier. She didn’t think about me. Just lived in the moment.
53)Was he better than me? No. But it was different. It was more exciting. New. It made her enjoy it more. She was powerful and she loved how it made her feel about herself during. She controlled him during.
54)So, what was so different? She was free. She would lounge around the apartment nude. Drink coffee or eat that way. She could never do that at home. She was like a different person. In a beautiful apartment in Manhattan. No worries. No bills. No kids, no me (that hit her). Just hanging around naked with a man who literally drooled over her.
55)Did she take any drugs? No. Never. Just wine or champagne.
56)Which positions did they do it in? Just three. Missionary, her on top, doggy. Did it in different rooms in his apartment. The sofa, on a chair.
57)How often would they do it during an afternoon? Depends. Mostly only once. A few times 2 or 3. He would pop Viagra in advance. So it depended on him.
58)Did they ever use condoms? No. She never thought about it.
59)Did she ever consider STD’s or pregnancy? No. Never crossed her mind. She just never thought of anyone else.
60)Are you pregnant? Oh God, no. Had her period last week.
61)Did you enjoy it? Yes. It’s sex. She enjoyed it. A lot. It was big turn on and a high for her.
62)Did you O? Yes.
63)All the time? No. Maybe 50%. It wasn’t about her own pleasure. It was all about him telling her how amazing she was, how wonderful she was, and how much he wanted her. She felt alive. It was about how he made her feel. She wanted to make him feel good because when she did he would tell her how amazing she was and she lived for that.
64)Why do you think you needed that attention? That validation? She said she doesn’t know. She wishes she did. She just felt so empty. So useless. Nobody needed her. She had all these talents. She loves the kids and is so happy she stayed home with them and that we didn’t have to have a stranger raise them. She’s blessed and she knows it, but she felt so alone. That nothing she did mattered. And she was getting old and where was her life going? And my oldest was getting married and leaving and she saw the future when all the kids would leave and what would she be left with? Who would need her then? And then to top it off she was stressed from the wedding and I wasn’t helping like I normally would and she felt I was abandoning her. She said she wasn’t making excuses. She’s just saying how she felt.
65)So why didn’t you discuss this with me? Or at least a therapist? I don’t know. Wish I did.
66)What did you talk about? Stupid things. The wedding. His wife and what a bitch she was. We talked about sex. A lot. More him talking. What he wanted to do to me. I should’ve seen then I was just an easy score for him. I was a piece of meat to him. And I used him for making myself feel good.
67)What else did you do? Oral? Yes.
68)Swallowed? Crying. Yes.
69)Did you do anything with him that you never did with me? Yes. Massive tears.
70)So you lied about that too? Yes. I didn’t want you to hate me.
71)What did you do? Anal. She lost it at that and started saying “I’m such a whore. I’m such a whore.”
72)Did you enjoy it? It was okay. Hurt at first. Despite tons of lube. He wanted it. She made him beg. Fed her ego.
73)How often did you do that with him? Three times. Wasn’t crazy about it but he really was into it. (For the record, I’ve never asked. Not my thing. Kinda feel it’s a one-way street, but to each their own.)
74)Sloppy seconds? No. Never. She turned me down twice so that it shouldn’t happen.
75)Did you ever kiss me after you had sex with him? Yes. I’m so sorry. But how could I not kiss you? She brushed her teeth and used mouthwash first. She was hyper self conscious about it.
76)Did you ever tell him you loved him? Yes.
77)During sex? Yes.
78)Other times? Yes.
79)Did you ever bad mouth me to him? Only about how I wasn’t helping her with the wedding.
80)Did she ever think about him while we were having sex? No. Never. She compartmentalized. Family vs. Fantasy. And vice versa.
81)Did you ever tell him he was better than me? No. Never. He tried disparaging me a few times. Comments about how he bets her husband doesn’t do this or that for her and she says she shot that down right away. I wasn’t to be discussed during sex at all. Threatened to cut him off if he continued.
Final questions:
82)What do you want? Deep breath. I want to have never caused you this pain. I want a time machine so I can go back and make the right choices. I want to never have met POS. I want you. I want you to stop hurting. I want you to know what kind of person you are. To remember. I want you to know this was me. All me. And not you at all. I want you to know how sorry I am. But I’m scared you’ll never know or believe me. I want you to let me love you. To let me help you heal. However I can. I want you to love me again or at least not hate me. I want you to make love to me. No, I want to make love to you. I want my family back. I want another chance even though I don’t deserve it. I want so many things and I’m so scared I’m not going to have the chance to have any of them. And it’s all my fault.
83)Why do you want to have sex with me? I didn’t say sex, I said make love. I want to replace everything I did with POS. To take all that evil and make it beautiful and meaningful. To show you how much I love you. To help you realize he had nothing over you. Nothing that mattered other than my own fantasy. To help you heal.
84)What if I don’t want to? I’ll wait as long as you need me to.
85)What are you willing to do? Anything. Absolutely anything and everything you want. I’d give everything I have or am.
86)Would you leave the house if I thought we needed a separation? Yes.
87)Would you be willing to give me a divorce with favorable terms? More crying. Yes. If that’s really what you need, then yes. I’d hate it and would ask that we could pursue other options first, but yes. She then suggested a post-nup as an example of one option.
88)Would you give me sole custody of the kids? No freaking way! (I just smiled and said I already knew the answer – I was just checking to see if she’d tell me the truth or what she thinks I wanted to hear.)
89)Are you willing to go back to work? Yes.
90)Are you willing to give up all volunteering? Yes.
91)How about friends? Yes.
92)Are you sure about that? Yes.
93)Are you prepared to be transparent about everything? Emails, passwords, phone, texts? Yes, yes, and yes.
94)Have you said anything so far this weekend that you think I want to hear but isn’t really the truth or the whole truth? No.
95)Have you omitted anything you know I’d be interested in knowing about? No. I don’t think so.
96)Are you willing to abide by NC and all that entails? Yes.
97)Are you willing to help me heal even if it means I lash out at you, curse you, keep asking questions, basically, make your life hell for the next 5 years? If that’s what you need, then yes.
98)Will you give me the space I need? If you need it, yes. If you need me to be close to you, then I’ll do that.
99)Why shouldn’t I divorce you? You should. I don’t want you to, but if I were in your shoes I’d probably be so angry and I’d hate you so much I’d divorce you. I know you’re a better person than me, so I’m hoping you won’t.
100)What do you hope to get out of IC? I want to find out why I did this. Why I was feeling the way I was that put me in the frame of mind that led me down this path. I want to learn tools so I can recognize these things in me so I can combat them in the future. Make myself someone who you should never ever have to worry about again, even though that sounds so stupid now. And I want to go to MC so I can learn better communication techniques because I shold have trusted in you. In us. And I didn’t. And I’ll forever be ashamed that I didn’t trust in you to help me or trust that you are who you always were.
101)Are you willing to put in the work to fix yourself? Yes. Absolutely, yes.
102)Even though it will be hard work? I don't care. Yes.
103)Even though it’s not a guarantee that we’ll make it? Even if we might still get divorced? Yes.
104)Why? Because I’m an idiot and I never ever want to risk losing you again. I may still. And if we do get divorced, at least I can say I tried. I may have done too much damage to us, but at least now I tried.
And there you have it. All the questions I asked.
After this is when I left the house with the girls to go see Mission Impossible. And to think. And talk to my brother. Last night my wife and I talked again. I thanked her for this weekend. I said I don’t truly hate her. I hate what she did. I hate what she did to me, to us, and to the kids. I said I appreciated her honesty and I know it was difficult for her. However, I told her that I hope she recognizes that she has no basis of truth. She lied so thoroughly and betrayed everything we had that while I may want to believe what she says, I just can’t. And that’s why we need to visit a polygraph examiner. And even if the polygraph comes back perfect, it doesn’t matter. What matters is what she does. Not what she says. And she needs to show me. I told her I’m going to take her up on her suggestion of a post-nup and that she should get a lawyer to represent her for that. She said she will, but she won’t contest anything I put in there, except for anything to do with the kids.
I
then told her that I want to stay married to her, I just don’t know if I could. I asked her if that’s what she wanted and she said yes. A thousand time yes. She wanted to stay married to me. But I told her I’m a mess, that I shake uncontrollably and get violently ill, and that I was prescribed medication for anxiety and sleep. I told her I’m scared of the future. I told her I need time away from her. To reclaim myself. That staying in the house is just not working. The proximity is not letting me heal. And that while the justice part of me says to kick her out, the husband and father in me says the best thing for the kids is for her to stay and me to leave. Temporarily. So I can get healthy. She started crying, but nodded too. She was confused. She thought I wanted to remain married. This sounds like a separation toward a divorce? I told her that for all intents and purposes we are divorced. And we will finalize it if I can’t get a handle on myself and get healthy. Get my shit together. I told her we need to each focus on getting better and only then can we focus on fixing us. I told her I’m going to be living with my brother. She wanted to know for how long. I said I didn’t have a time frame. She said okay. Take as long as you need. But come back soon. I warned her that any behavior that would make me suspicious of her would be a deal breaker. She understood. She was very nervous with her next question and then asked if I viewed this as a separation and was I planning on taking revenge on her and then she started really crying. I said no. I never had any interest in doing that with anyone but her. Well, that caused more tears. I said the goal is not to punish her or to find someone else. It’s actually for us. But the only way I can see there being an “us” is if we both fix ourselves first and I can’t do that staying in the house. I just can’t. I need to get healthy and recover. So I view this as me going to a health clinic so I can come back with the strength to do what needs to be done. At least then, I think, we’ll have a chance. We might fail, hence the post-nup, but we’ll have a chance. As it stands, right now, we might as well file for divorce. She got it then. Said she didn’t like me leaving, she thinks we’d better heal together, but understood my point of view and was okay with it if I felt it would me. She hoped I get what I need and get healthy soon. I said I hoped she’d put in the effort during this time to do whatever she can to fix herself. Find out why and work toward it. She wanted to make sure I was going to keep stopping by for the kids. I said of course. I said we should do a check-in after one month. See where we are. I didn’t want bi-weekly “when are you coming home?” questions, so setting a timeframe makes sense. She bit her lip but nodded. And I said depending on where we felt we each were in IC, we can discuss MC at that time. She started crying again and thanked me. She kept thanking me over and over. And then she promised me she’s going to do everything she possibly can to make it work. And while I’m gone, she’ll focus on the kids and fixing herself. And that’s how we left it. And that’s where I am now.
I have a very specific reason why I chose this path, which I’ll get into later. So today, while being thoroughly and emotionally drained from typing all this, I feel calm. Good. I have a direction. For better or for worse I have a path and I’m going to travel it. It may veer and twist and turn, but it’s a path. It’s been 3 weeks since I found out – feels like forever ago. Maybe it’s too soon, but like Bigger said, my thought process was that I needed to at least know what I wanted to do – even if I may not succeed at it. And I want to reconcile. But maybe my thoughts will change in a month or two or 12. Who knows? But I felt like I had to place a stake in the ground. And now I have.
[This message edited by Walloped at 3:28 PM, August 24th (Monday)]
