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she is getting extremely frustrated and impatient with my resurfaced trauma

Now's the chance for her to actually understand what the true extent of the trauma is. She doesn't truly get it yet. You need her to.

Another option is divorce. Don't settle here.

Sending strength!

A definition of character is what one does when no one is looking.

She was talking to a close confidante of her's....her mother....so it is only fair to think that she was talking with the full expectation of privacy. So you are correct in that you never would have 'heard that'. I doubt that your wife would want to say that to you in person. But nonetheless, this IS what she is thinking about the situation. Venting or not, those feeling of hers about this are real. Can YOU accept that?

Sometimes when people are venting to a confidante, they expressed things more harshly than they actually feel.

That said, she seems callous and completely clueless about the impact of her actions and the long-term effects of rugsweeping an affair.

I don’t know what a good course of action is. Like you said, you weren’t supposed to have heard this, and I’m not sure what I think about the ethics of using a VAR in these circumstances.

But I do know that in your shoes I would feel incredibly hurt and frustrated and angry. I would be very tempted to "man up" and tell her very directly and strongly, with a neutral voice tone, exactly how this is impacting your marriage and that for you to be fully invested in a healthy relationship is going to require a full revisiting of the affair with complete buy-in on her part. That might not be the "manning up" she had in mind, but maybe she’s the one who needs to grow a pair, stop being a whiney b*%#, and deal with the fallout of her choices.

Sorry, that last part was probably unnecessary and unhelpful.

That's just one of the problems with associating manhood with how the BS responds to an A - what needs to be done is not connected to gender. Can 'Bigger's speech' (You're free to have an EA or PA, but not while M to me....) be used only by males? Aren't women who set their boundaries in no uncertain terms still women?

To recover from an A, both partners need to find their own strength. Both partners need to use their strengths as individuals to take responsibility for themselves. A partner who fails to do that won't heal. They can rugsweep, but that lets the pain fester, grow, and come out in nasty ways.

Both partners have to decide how they will live their lives. If there's a good fit between the 2 decisions, R is possible. If the 2 decisions don't fit together well, D is probably the best bet.

But gender is not at issue.

I have a similar issue with insults. So many infidelity-related insults are connected to gender. 'Betrayer' and '_______' are gender-free, but it just doesn't have the force of _____, ____, _____, or others.

Not sure how to handle this one since technically "I never heard it".

Yes, but you can "guess" how annoyed/bored she is about this.

She should care a little about what you might be feeling as the person experiencing it when she's so uncomfortable hearing about the things she's caused, right?

So maybe instead of treading water in the surface muck of ruminating about her choice 16 years ago [or ANY WS choice to cheat at ay point], dive down into the depths of how you define Who You Are, and how much it is attached to who she is. And then detach it. Stand on your own, define yourself by your own actions and no one else's.

This. Soooooo much this. This, whether you R or D or limbo or whatever. I think the more "attached" (which I see on a spectrum) we are to our WS, the harder this part can be.

And to me, that place (of detachment of our identities with our spouse's) where the "what ifs" become less obsessive. At the end of the day, no matter if we R or D, we can still end up being cheated on again. We can still end up losing a relationship. We can still be hurt. The only thing we DO have is ourselves and our strength to know that even if we end up being hurt again (and the odds are we will - maybe not by our WS, maybe not by a new partner, but hurt is part of life), we will be OK. We can simultaneously find space to hold both our hurt and our strength and our joy and hope and all the other feelings. IMO, that is part of the work of healing from trauma.

As to the VAR... Say you had been robbed at gunpoint 16yrs ago and still get sweaty palms and high anxiety when walking a dark alley, would she be able to offer empathy and sympathy to that continued hurt & trauma response? Or would she be telling you to stifle it? If you believe it doesn't matter if she or another person caused the harm - then there's an empathy gap. Or if you believe she would have empathy IF the wrong were caused by someone other than her (and FWIW, despite my WH's failings, I believe my own WH would), then the pivot is to her and her shame or whatever it is inside her that cannot have empathy if she is the one who caused the harm. BOTH of these are "her" problems. You cannot control or fix her becoming empathetic or her overcoming shame. These are things that your WS needs to WANT to address & fix, bc that's not the person SHE wants to be.

So, if she isn't interested in addressing or working on empathy, whether generally or for the harm she's caused, is that something YOU can live with? Is it something you can let go and learn to no longer hope for or expect from her? IMO, this is another one of the areas where it's not "about" us... IOW, being the most perfect spouse on the planet will not magically allow a WS to find empathy.

We can all debate the finer points of what may have been going on with your WS at the time of the VAR. Personally, I don't think it's helpful or matters that much. The old saying of when someone shows you who they are - believe them, seems to apply. So, you now have another data point. The question still comes back to what you are and are not willing to accept or live with. Some folks can/have Rd with a WS who doesn't have a lot going on in the empathy dept; these BS seem to have to a place of acceptance about their spouse's range and character and have chosen to commit to R despite this particular shortcoming. Others cannot or will not even commit to R with a WS who is unable to show empathy (this is my particular boat). Neither way is "right" or "wrong"... it's parsing out what we, as a BS, want and need from our partners in the wake of infidelity. Only you can answer that for yourself.

And coming to that place of acceptance doesn't mean it won't still be frustrating AF. And that's also OK. IMO, one great thing about SI is it's a place that I can come and vent about that crap EVEN THOUGH I know that my frustration is now a ME problem - not a WS problem - bc I have not (yet) chosen to D. I know who he is and I know that he's not interested in change. I know that I can't control him or in any way beg, plead, cajole, manipulate, force, or otherwise change him. That is entirely up to him. And staying (even if only for the time being) is entirely my choice.

Which brings me full circle on that detachment piece:

instead of treading water in the surface muck of ruminating about her choice[s - whether today or 16yrs ago]..... dive down into the depths of how you define Who You Are, and how much it is attached to who she is. And then detach it. Stand on your own, define yourself by your own actions and no one else's

[This message edited by gmc94 at 8:13 PM, Monday, January 17th]

What stands out to me from the VAR conversation is her lack of empathy. Does she talk about other people this way?

I don't talk about people like this. My husband doesn't talk about people like this. If I were to overhear him complaining about me, I'm sure it would be couched in a lot of understanding: "I know she is experiencing a trauma that I caused, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to stay married. But sometimes I get worn down and worried she'll never get over it . . ."

Some people are naturally empathetic. Most of us need to work on it. It's really a requirement for true R that the WS works on their capacity for selfless love and empathy. It's no wonder that you haven't healed a trauma caused by someone who hasn't changed to become a safe and loving person.

After the trauma of an A, we all become hypervigilant, worried the other shoe will drop. If your spouse hasn't done much to change, then why indeed would you let your weight down and trust that they won't stab you in the back again? Your psyche won't let you because it doesn't want you to get hurt again.

The advice to detach is spot on. You need to focus on yourself, on being enough for yourself, caring for yourself. If she cares about the marriage, she'll notice the distance and try to bridge it. If she doesn't, then you have more information to make your next steps.

swmnbc, she actually does talk about other people in that same way and it's always been part of her character. If I were to put it nicely, I might describe it as a sort of "tough love" approach. So it does make me feel a little better that its not targeted specifically at me but just is a character trait of hers. She has positive traits as well, obviously otherwise I wouldn't be sticking it out with her. But her whole family is pretty much the same way. Very direct, unfiltered, and not one to sugar coat things. Basically the exact opposite of sappy, which is more of the type of family environment where I was brought up, where the other person almost walks on eggshells around the other's feelings. Thats not my wife. Which is Im sure a contributing factor of why Ive been stuck in R.

[This message edited by gainingclosure at 4:42 PM, Thursday, January 20th]

Very direct, unfiltered, and not one to sugar coat things. Basically the exact opposite of sappy

I am the same way... and I still possess, show, and express empathy.

It’s so frustrating thinking this way. I can relate all too well… I have to remind myself that it’s not a healthy way to reflect on the past and that there will always be multiple paths in life. I know it doesn’t always keep the mind from wandering… when I recognize a negative thought pattern I try my hardest to be practical and focus on the present. If that doesn’t work then sometimes journaling will help empty my mind.

Depending on your relationship with your wayward spouse you can also reach out to her about your insecurities to see if she can help you feel more secure. I get the impression she really needs to express in more depth why she chose you and to work on making you feel important to her.

I would imagine rebuiling trust, open, honest communication, and transparency are going to all be key to rebuilding the relationship. Also, a good licensed counselor.