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No wonder her mom says those things, she did the exact same as her daughter it sounds like.

I would tell her dad as soon as you feel there is no other choice. Because your wife needs to completely change.

Has your wife read the book Not Just Friends yet, she needs to read that book.

1. She must confess all about the info I have found by the end of the year.

Make damn sure that if you're giving deadlines, you keep them. Because once you break a deadline, she wont believe another one.

And a deadline cannot mean a little more truth, it has to mean the entire truth and all adherence to your conditions.

She cannot lay the guilt trip crap on you like she deserves privacy or nights out. She already proved she is a liar at this time and cannot be trusted.

Your conditions also need to include, no more hanging out with that friend who has affairs, no more friends that believe affairs are fine. Those people need to be out of your lives.

Well I have confronted her today about what I know about from her phone. I will Say that I might have exaggerated a little bit when I said that she stayed out past 2am when she went out. That actually only happened once in February and we had sex that night. So there was not a affair that night, however some other issues arose from the night. She admitted to flirting and she rekindled with an old friend of hers. I've been telling you a lot but I cant explain everything in my situation, but I do believe that she is telling the truth that she has only had one PA (and I have told her if there are more the story it was a deal breaker, I'll dicuss my deal breakers in next MC). But I did explain to her that she did, in my eyes, have a EA. Although I know it was just a good friend from the past that she had dated. However this friend was definitely into her, but I do believe she was not into him. Either way it was a minor EA. I feel so relieved to get all this off my chest with my WW. I'm going to continue 180ing.

This all started because she would not answer or talk anymore about our situation. So after a few beers I started asking questions. She eventually caught on that I've been spying on her. And I did find some more info (from her) that I did not know about. Perhaps something happened even though she said it didn't. But I'll never be able to find out. I know you guys have experience and what I've said makes her sound like a bad person, but I do believe she's a fairly good girl (with one major fuck up). Either way she fucked up a lot and I'm at the point to move on if she doesn't try.

I have come to the realization that there is nothing that I can do when the issues lies only within the WW (she's admitted her low self esteem and lonlieness as issues). At this point I'm 50-50, the ball is in her court. Seriously, I would've never realized this if it wasn't for you guys and this website. I can see my life going in either direction, either way they're going to be hard.

JW...

Welcome to SI, Bro....but sorry youre here...

At this point in my WWs affair...I didn't believe a damn thing she said....and only half of what I saw....cheaters lie - its part of the dynamics of affairs...they will only admit to what they think you already know...then lie some more...

although we have not had sex since September

THIS is a HUGE RED FLAG....Sept was 3 months ago. I'd say yall have some marital issues BEFORE her affair...sex and intimacy are the glue that hold marriages together....your marriage was in trouble before she cheated on you....how are ya'lls (yeah...im from Texas too) communication skills? Your intimacy levels? Do you do everything you can to make her feel sexy, desirable, attractive, loved.....? Her going to bed at night alone while you watch porn and "handle it yourself" does NOT make her feel that way...

No, Bro....not suggesting her affair is your fault - just trying to figure out her "thought process" about her cheating. I believe that there are several "reasons" why women cheat.

1) they are "broken"...and seek outside validation from other men to fulfill their emotional needs to "feel good" about themselves. They indulge in "risk behavior"....compulsive behavior...one night stands, etc.

AND/OR ...

2). Their emotional needs aren't being met within the marriage. I believe that some women that feel "alone", "unappreciated or not listened to", "not heard", etc will cheat to have those emotional needs met....I think some women in "sexless marriages" (less that 10 times a year is considered "sexless") will seek other men to fulfill those needs...and by the time the H figures it out....shes checked out...

No...its not your fault shes cheating on you.....but she may have been sending "signals" that she wasn't happy....husbands sometimes don't see the "hints", or will ignore them... I do believe something, somewhere was "missed" - NOT handled properly....I did own part of my FWWs and my marital issues - the FWW owned all of her choice to cheat on me...

My advice....tell her what is acceptable to you...set your limitations...tell her....once. Then draw a line in the dirt - like Travis at the Alamo.....and back it up. If shes still dating other men...you have 2 choices: live with it, or don't. accept it or file for divorce. Then hit that 180 - hard...

You will not "nice guy" her back....crying and whining will not do it...its not sexy or attractive. You cannot fix this with a few trips to a shrink...or a weekend of make up sex...R is a long road...it takes time...a long time. It is not an 8 second ride (rodeo joke - get it)? And she has to want to firstand do a lot of things first (before your "give a shit" quits working)....true remorse, transparency, IC for pre-affair issues, etc.

R is possible....lot of shit has to happen first......dating others must stop first...My wife got out of her affair fog when I filed for D.....up until then she was humping my leg... and OM.. its all in my profile - feel free to look at it...

Until you get a "snotting, blubbering, crying, im so sorry I hurt you, mascara dripping off her chin" apology...you got shit.. hit that 180... laywer up....

JMO ...

keep us posted ...

Bufffalo

[This message edited by bufffalo at 6:42 AM, December 14th (Sunday)]

Some of us need to get run over by the bus before we can see the truth. I know for me that was mostly true. I wish you the best of luck JW, we will still be here for you when you come back.

You got some very good observations from bufffalo. I just wanted to reinforce that you can't "nice" her back. It is a pride, self worth destroying, humiliating activity. It was advise I got off the internet before I found SI. The advice was to let the adultery run its course because it will never last. There should have been a foot note with that advice that unfortunately the side effects are extreme manhood destroying. By doing that my FWW carried on for 3 more years (I never had actual proof) with a husband who was buying her things, antiques, diamond earrings, vacations and providing a wonderful, stable life and a FWB for frequent sex.

It is destroying. Not only did my FWW betray me. I betrayed myself. I speak from experience. Follow bufffalo's advice. Do not try to nice her back. Blow up her world. You cannot R with someone still "in the fog". You cannot MC with someone still carrying on. Do not let her have control or the upper hand. Do not buy her stories. Cheaters lie. And lie and gaslight and manipulate and minimize. Take control. How I wish I had this advice when I needed it.

Hey Buffalo it's great to hear from you.

Things in our marriage been off for a long time. She's always had self-esteem issues. For marriage I tried hard and things are great. Act got married things kind of settle down they were good until we had kids. You hit every nail on the head; Communication, intimacy, trying to make her feel loved and sexy were not being met. Yeah I messed up because I stopped trying. And that's exactly what she said got her to this point. It's hard to believe me being from Texas that I'm not into country music and I don't even know how to two-step. That's been a issue. She said early in our relationship she tried doing all the things I like doing and then realized I never try to do things she liked doing. I told her I would love to learn to dance and we've tried, I just wasn't good at it (although I've been learning for the last few months). This is something that she has been missing that led up to her A. She has even told me that she has always wanted to be with someone who can dance good. All these men that I found out about all started from dancing. Either way I did stop trying and I confessed that to her after DD.

JW, what would you have done if before any infidelity your WW told you "JW, Dancing is very important to me. I want you to dance with me. This is how I can be intimate with you. If you don't learn to dance and start taking me out dancing then I'm going to divorce you."

How would have taken this? What would you have done?

Don't let her blameshift any of her A on to you, and you certainly don't do it for her. That above would have been the most direct and effective way to get your attention, wouldn't it? At least to start a conversation about the M.

Instead, it is she who had weak boundaries. She chose to let infidelity happen. She has to own that shit in full. She has a mountain of an FOO issue. Instead of being direct with you about how she feels in the M, she used her passive-aggressive scorecard and docked you minus points to punish you. Her mom taught her how to do this. Somehow she needs to realize she has gone about dealing with M issues the wrong way.

[This message edited by Jduff at 10:27 AM, December 14th (Sunday)]

JDuff

Thanks man, that is exactly how the issue about dancing should've been handled. That's part of the problem but the other issue is with self-esteem. Either way I think she still would've felt the need to go out. She's a big reader and I know she reads some romance novels, it's like she wants her life to be a fantasy. If I could only count how many times we've argued about how life isn't perfect....

About her being passive aggressive I totally agree she did learn that from her mother. Maybe her father too. Her father was pretty verbally and emotionally abusive and her mother just ran away from issues. I'm a good guy and that's one of the reason she's with me. I try to avoid conflict because I don't think it's worth dealing with it (atleast aggressive conflict). But the way she was raised she's very verbally aggressive about conflict which causes me to shut down. Bad combination for communication.

If we make it then I will believe in miracles. Back to 180! Also she's been pissed off this morning since I confronted her yesterday. I just told WW "your just mad because you got caught!" 2 separate EA. Then the PA. And she's given her number out to 3 other guys since February. One EA would have likely led to a PA (things didn't line up) so I guess DD#2 12/13/14. I feel my love tank is pretty empty that's why I think 180 will be easier. It's a total R from nearly scratch or D.

Two things for you to ponder on:

First of all: If you tell her that any more revelations would be a deal-breaker then don’t expect her to be forthcoming with more revelations.

You might be that first poster I encounter that gets the whole story so early on. And I might win the lottery this week…

Instead let her know that recovery can ONLY be made from a foundation of TRUTH.

Offer her a sort of amnesty: A one-chance offer to tell the truth and you promise that you will listen and soak it all in and give yourself 3-5 days before committing to D or R. Give her a sense of security that telling the truth won’t automatically terminate the marriage and a sense that hiding the truth definitely will.

The second point:

OK – You can be held accountable for how the marriage developed. But you can NEVER be held accountable for her decision to have an affair.

As a former cop I recall when a veteran pointed out that no matter what the occasion people would always find ways to justify their actions. The rapist would explain how the woman was asking for it. The burglar would tell us how he needed to break into houses to support his family. The bully how the person he beat senseless deserved it… Fact is in all cases the person broke the law and/or accepted behavior and only had himself to blame.

Bigger is correct about trying to make a safe place for your WW to give you the entire truth. If your WW *knows* that any further discovery/revelation is a certain divorce, she is going to do all that is in her power to keep these issues out of the light.

We are not suggesting that you swallow your pride, or to sit back and take it; we are suggesting that it is nearly impossible to rebuild a trusting, healthy relationship without honesty and truth. And if you are looking to reconcile, you have to (1) let your WW understand this, and (2) deal with this infidelity in its entirety--i.e. no rugsweeping. The only *free pass* that you are offering your WW, is that you will not only listen to whatever information that she still has to confess, but that you will be thankful for the truth---no matter how ugly it may be when you first hear it.

Again, it starts with honesty and truth.

If you decide that after you absorb all that she has to say, and you can't reconcile with her, then so be it. But at least you are being honest with her and yourself. Stronger08 hinted earlier that you are giving your WW too much of a pass, and starting to rugsweep. From that post that mentioned your confrontation, I tend to agree. Her behavior goes way beyond "one major fuckup", and the sooner that you accept that, the sooner that the two of you can possibly move forward. People should be judged at the moment for their behavior in the moment. And at this time, your wife is a multiple cheater....and they don't get credit for prior good behavior. Nor do they need to wear a scarlet letter for the rest of their lives. But at this moment, we are dealing with the here and now. Try to keep this perspective.

Maybe I've made the transition into an utter cynic, but the last 2 posts correctly discussed the importance of truth in a relationship. However, from my observations most WS's couldn't tell the truth if their lives depended on it. They will always lie to cast their actions and sins in the best light.

Asking for the truth is foolishness; you are not going to get it; Just a colored distortion of reality. If the affair is ongoing then you will get assurances it has ended. If it has ended then you will assurances that nothing much happened; a condom was always used; I didn't like the sex; I couldn't get an erection; it was only once etc.etc.

The truth lies in hard evidence gathered by you and not from the mouths of cheaters.

I'm with Bigger and Jb. I also think you have some bad news coming your way. Reading over your posts your WW sound manipulative and is messing with your head and using your trusting nature to her advantage. My WW tried snowing me for a month, she was shitting her pants because her past came tumbling out of her closet.

She gave me only what I already knew but she was a very bad lair. She wanted recovery but I told her I would not move forward without knowing what I was dealing with (once I came out of shock). I told her that I would give her a day to figure out her direction. I then told her I was willing to do what it took to "try" to recover and support every effort we could toward recovery (as long as she was pulling her weight). Finally I told her that if ANYTHING came up later that would be it, we would be done and any hope for recovery would be over and gone.

A day later I found out enough shit to realize my WW was not the person I thought she was. She crushed me. She also showed me she was willing to loose it all to save our marriage because the stuff she told me was bad and she had no real reason to tell me other than she was serious about making things right.

JWBetrayed

So here you are with the following facts:

(1) Thanks to the guys who have kept after you here, you have now discovered and confirmed that your WW has been lying to you for some time now and that her girls nights out were nothing more than opportunities to meet other men.

(2) She has admitted absolutely nothing that you have not prodded out of her

(3) Only unavailability of working it out has prevented more actual physical affairs

And your refusal to go dancing has been the reason for this and you seem to be accepting some of the blame.

now let's see what her ACTIONS have been

(1) She has continued to refuse to give you transparency and locks her phone

I and no one else reading your thread can understand how you can read what I have just reminded you of and think for a minute that you are not fooling yourself if you consider yourself in R.

your wife is undoubtedly still in contact with a number of other men, Have you taken any action to put a VAR in her car to get more truth. Confronting her will do nothing since you want to accept her lies out of fear.

if you take some time and read SI forums, you will see what you are in store for if you continue to allow her to have all the power in this relationship. As one of the other guys said, WE WILL BE HERE FOR YOU WHEN YOUR NEXT D DAY happens. of course, you can make the choice that you are not going to remain in an open marriage and help yourself. We all hope you do that!!

It pains everyone reading here what you are going through but only you can stop it.

BIGGER AND STRONGER and all the others have it exactly right.

Get yourself out of DENIAL and hopefully get some ANGER and get to an attorney and show her some consequences.

To Bigger

That is exactly what I did yesterday I told my wife I'll give her a few days to think about if there's anything else that needs to be said. I did say if anything else ever surfaced it would probably be a dealbreaker. I never defined a dealbreaker to her, but I'm thinking I'll still give her till the end of the year and I'll mention dealbreaker a at next MC along with the others. Today she has been mad, passive aggressive, and mostly not talking to me. 180 isn't to bad. But I need to start getting out of the house more and I need to stop initiating conversation. I think those are my biggest challenges now. She hasn't mentioned divorce this whole time surprisingly, but think part of her wants one (atleast im sure she wants a separation). But I will wait it out. This house is in my name and I'm not leaving my home or kids for her mistakes.

Please, read http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=547220 and start protecting yourself!

See a lawyer, start documenting for custody purposes and carry a VAR on you and record every time you interact with her, and download recording to a safe location/email address.

Best wishes

While I may disagree on waiting until the end of the year, at least you have set some sort of deadline in your own mind. But that doesn't mean that you should sit on your hands for the next two weeks. What happens, in all probability, at the end of the year when your WW's response to your ultimatum is simply "I'm still not sure about anything"? What will you do then?

If the answer is "I will start the procedures to terminating the marriage", then you don't need to wait two weeks for this. Reread your last response:

Today she has been mad, passive aggressive, and mostly not talking to me.

Would you consider this to be reconciling?

Listen to what her ACTIONS are telling you. She is not remorseful, or even regretful. She is angry...and projecting it on you...because she can't have what she wants---which was her double life. Why you would accept this type of behavior for an ultimatum that will not be met is not in your best interest. She is showing you....right now....that she does not want this marriage. And what you should be doing, is working on ending this relationship.

Start getting your ducks lined up. Did you speak with an attorney? Have you investigated separating your finances? Moving into another room, if neither of you will leave the house?

These are all inevitable steps that are taken when a marriage is being dissolved. It doesn't matter if you want to reconcile, because you BOTH have to be committed to R to have a legitimate shot. Her actions are showing just the opposite, therefore leaving you no possibility to attempt reconciliation---at least at this time.

Look, she may eventually come around, but you can't just sit and wait. It will drain your soul. There is nothing wrong with working towards divorce until she shows you that she wants otherwise. It is then that you can decide if you want to try to save the marriage. But limbo is a shitty place. I would not recommend that you try to stay there.

Your WW is either in or out. The "safe place" that was mentioned earlier is for someone who is looking to save the marriage. Currently, that does not apply to your situation.

60 days, JW. That's what Texas requires as a cooling off period once your WW is served. The petition will be on the docket but won't be acted on until 60 days has expired. There's a lot of time for her to get her shit together. You know, I read an article sometime back that most divorcing women serve their husbands the petition right after Christmas or the New Year. Nothing to do about sticking the knife into their husbands back, just mostly looking at the situation for the STBXW to start from a clean slate with a brand new year. Your WW may be planning things that way and just leading you along so you don't act for your own best interest before she does.

However, you file and have her served BEFORE Christmas and whatever exit plan that her passive-aggressive mind is focusing on will get blown to smithereens. You WILL get to grasp control of the situation from that point forward. She is trying to use FEAR to manipulate you and have you back off. You take away that one leverage she thinks she has over you, the fate of the M, and she WILL have to deal with you openly and address working on R or going to D. Another reason to file soon is that you get to control the pace of the divorce process, as well as which county it takes place. You will want some temporary orders in place as well to protect your interests. You can bet that if she has already talked to an attorney she would get this same advice and more. Yes, it is a no-fault state but go ahead and put adultery as the cause.

There's two ways of how you are going to experience the coming holidays and remember them in the future:

1) You do nothing, WW would rather go spend it with some OM, and you sit at home sipping a glass of rum with a dash of eggnog glossing over how this all came to be.

2) You take control and serve her D papers, dictate terms, give her the gift of "consequences" by Christmas, then depending how things the situation goes you can consider giving her the gift of "R" or "D".

All we can tell you is that the quicker you get out of this infidelity situation the sooner you take control of your options and your future. JMO, if it were me I would rather remember this Christmas and conquer future Christmas holiday triggers as a time I didn't get "fucked over" by infidelity, but got the "fuck out" of infidelity.

The last two post are great, agreed! Take control of your life!