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Barry, I think This crazy and obnoxious. Hope you keep proof of all these despicable events. Go to D and keep full custody. This woman is a curse, Please Kick her out with the worst possible outcome for her. Give all gory details to the famillies

[This message edited by goalong at 4:56 PM, February 24th (Friday)]

I read wk55hn excellent post just after he published it and have been thinking a lot about it.

Maybe he’s correct. Maybe not.

Maybe it’s a more-or-less correct timeline and thought process. Maybe not.

Maybe this is what your wife was thinking/doing. Maybe not.

Personally – if they were accepting bets on your situation – I guess I would place money on wk55hn version versus what your WW has told you.

Maybe that would pay off. Maybe not…

BUT… and this is the big but…

You don’t know…

And that’s the big problem.

You don’t know.

To recover your marriage, you need the TRUTH. You need to reach a place where you are convinced you have all the important facts. A place where you know EVERYTHING that’s prevalent to your marriages recovery. What facts are important? That’s for you to decide. Some only need a basic timeline, others need gory details. Personally, I would need everything because my imagination can do more damage than reality…

She claims she doesn’t remember when the first sexual encounter took place. In a way where and when are irrelevant to your recovery. Simple fact she cheated is the true issue. Frankly if she were to tell you NOW that the first time was planned and took place in a hotel they booked days in advance then that knowledge would damage your marriage less than learning this 2-3 months into reconciliation.

IMHO this is such an important issue.

A key issue.

When you offer reconciliation, you are offering to lower your guard against someone that’s punched you hard. Inevitably we are on our toes and might even have our fists clenched. Although we want to reconcile we fear being hurt. We fear a quick jab in the stomach. However, being overtly defensive impedes and damages reconciliation. We NEVER get the blind trust again (and IMHO that’s good) but with time our spouse’s accountable actions should allow us to drop the guard. This in turn makes R easier or even possible.

Try holding hands when making a fist. Doesn’t work. We need to open up and trust. That won’t work if we aren’t assured we have the truth because we are always expecting a punch. So far your WW has shown all the typical WW behaviors and therefore I am willing to place money on wk55hn being correct in his assessment. If she’s keeping secrets then SHE isn’t showing trust and SHE is keeping a fist. No matter what you do you can’t truly reconcile.

You need to find a way to get the message across to your wife and convince her that the ONLY way forward is through truth. That the consequences of lying far exceed the benefit of telling the truth. I can assure you that learning NOW that she did things with him or that they had sex three times a day or that he was in your house or whatever is recoverable from. Her keeping secrets is HER having a closed fist.

Since there is no trust then you too need a tool to convince YOU that you have the truth. That’s where a poly can come in handy. If presented properly a poly can benefit both the BS and the WS. It’s a tool at the end of the road where you can both decide that you have a level of truth that’s acceptable to carry on.

Think about this for a moment.

Decide what you need to know. Decide on the level of detail. Even write a list of what you need. Make the importance of the truth clear to your wife. I have sometimes suggested offering an amnesty: If she tells you all you need and can offer you an acceptable level of assurance (for example with a poly) then you commit to a 90-day period where you work on the marriage.

Barry – Just saw your note on everyone at work knowing. Go back to my post on page 11 of this journey.

The reason I knew others knew of the affair is simply that your WW and the affair she had isn’t anything special.

That’s the same reason wk55hn can predict her behavior. The only thing unique about the affair you are dealing with is that it’s you that’s dealing with it.

USE THIS.

We can predict with unnerving precision her next steps as well as YOUR next steps. Unfortunately, the reason we can predict YOUR next steps is because we have seen too many in your shoes wonder off track…

Barry,

This is a lot of hard stuff to process. Knowing everyone knew, and encouraged it, that makes it even that much tougher.

Have you done much thinking of why YOU want to save the marriage? You have kids, but they sound as if they are older. You're the bread winner.

When I was going through this stuff, I thought getting a divorce was the worst thing that could happen. I couldn't stand the thought and I worried about my kids. What would this do to them? How I could possibly be a single dad? etc

Best decision I ever made.

I'm not advising you to get a divorce. I'm advising you to think about what you can handle here. At the beginning, we focus so much on trying to save the marriage that it overrides the real question of "why should I save the marriage?"

You've got a lot to get over. You heard them having sex if I remember correctly. You now know details. As bad as Walloped had it, he never heard them actually having sex. That's something you'll never be able to forget.

This might be a dealbreaker but your head and your heart aren't on the same page yet. They can take a while. Just, think about what's in the best interest of Barry.

Barry, for your wife to be so enamored of this guy, she must have been giving off hints.

Was your gut not telling you something was off? with her being so sexual with OM, I imagine she was avoiding intimacy with you. How were things during the affair? Was there affection? Were you still having sex?

As for the holiday party, why were you not there? It's strange that at a SAHM first job, the husband would be so un-involved.

As for the holiday party, why were you not there? It's strange that at a SAHM first job, the husband would be so un-involved.

Depends on the company, but if the invite was "spouses welcome" Mrs Barry was not going to tell Barry to come to the party and ruin a perfectly good opportunity to have a holiday party of her own with the OM.

Hanging with the cool kids, the ones who knew of and cheered on the affair was another high for her. And OM liked parading in public this quarter's sidepiece.

There was affection but it definitely dropped off during her affair. We did not have sex as much and sometimes she would be into it and sometimes she would just lay there until I was done. She would shower usually after work didn't think about it at the time but now it's obvious. She told me during the affair she felt like she wasn't in love with me anymore. She has said she does love me so we will see. I asked her if they would still be having an affair if she wasn't caught and she said 100%. So I have to keep that in mind.

Barry, I can't remember since I've been "in love" with my wife. "In love" meaning "infatuation, butterflies, etc. Long martiages don't get that. Look at any long marriage and see how many are passionately "in love" - I've never seen one. So comparing "in love" (infatuation) in an affair vs. "love" in a marriage is comparing apples to oranges. Completely different. Both a fruit, but that's where the similarity ends. Might as well compare marriage love to love with your kids. Just very different.

As far as "love," it is a varied and vague term. Love of child, love of spouse, love of mankind. Different things. I take it she stopped feeling as "husband and wife" and more like co-parents.

Infatuation has brain chemicals attached but as humans we can override them, we can walk away from addictive drugs.

Sex causes an emotional bonding based on the intimacy far greater than other shared actions, like bowling together.

The combination, infatuation and frequent sex, in my opinion , that's like putting sunlight under a magnifying glass - it just intensifies and speeds things up much more quickly than a normal relationship. Plus there is no external influence like family/friends to give feedback to the new "couple" except toxic cheerleaders. You can see by exposure to outside influences mitigates the intense feelings.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 1:21 PM, February 21st (Tuesday)]

I have only been reading this forum for a few weeks and yours has been one that i have been following Barry. I have read on other threads that the main way out of an affair is for the cheater to be totally honest about the affair, but your WW just seems too brutal. I hope you find happiness for you and your children but I have my doubts it will be with your WW.

Barry, your wife was "in love" with the new, the excitement of the affair, that's all.

You can keep the excitement in a long marriage too, it takes work by both but you can keep the sparks going. Plan date nights, give her surprise gifts, surprise love notes, sexy lingerie, thoughtful small gifts of things she likes, ect ect.

The trick is trying to do that now after she has had such a horrible affair, after she has just horribly betrayed you. You probably don't feel like trying to woo her or keep the sparks going right now you are angry, disgusted and hurt.

If your marriage survives and you heal up some and can start thinking of things to improve the passion.

Hopefully you are all right, that she was just in love with the new excitement of the affair. Like I said all I know is they said they loved each other and they planned trips together. The affair seemed to be pretty emotional too. Also for the first few days after I found out it was indeed a PA, she couldn't decide who she "felt more strongly" for. I think the fog has been lifting atleast I hope so.

As she revealed the full details I felt crushed. Still do, I feel as if I'm lacking motivation to do anything at the moment. I have also been feeling just physically sick. I don't know if that is common.

[This message edited by barry22 at 2:35 PM, February 21st (Tuesday)]

Barry,

I know you feel sick, and like doing nothing. However, you need to do something each day to move out of infidelity, even if small. Here's one small thing you can do; look up limerence on Wikipedia, read it, and review a few more articles or websites about it. Shouldn't take more than an hour or so.

Only time will tell if you can get past what she has done and find happiness with her again.

My advice is, don't push things. Be guided by both your head and your heart, not by what she or others want from you.

Even if you do decide to stay together for now, I would advise you to create a degree of emotional independence by spending time apart from her and doing things just for yourself. No need to do a full 180, just be a little less of a husband and a bit more of a roommate. If she does what she needs to do, you will know when it's time to start treating her more like a wife again or, if she doesn't, when it's time to pull the plug.

Becoming less dependent on her will reinforce the gravity of her betrayal, enable you to make better decisions about the state of your relationship and, if things don't work out, put you that much farther down the road to recovery.

In any case, you seem to be regaining your composure and equilibrium a lot quicker than most BHs. Keep it up.

Ask her what she loved about him? As opposed to you. What attributes? Ask about what she looks for in a long-term partner. Integrity? Loyalty? Honesty? Faithfulness? What values could he impair to your children? Sexiness? Flirtiness? Get under the microscope and make her look at it with you. See if that doesn't put anything into focus.

Also ask her about infatuation in a new relationship vs love in a long-term marriage. Ask if she knows any long-term marriage with that new relationship infatuation. Ask her if she stayed with him if she thinks it would have eventually become just like you and her prior to the affair, minus the integrity.

wk55hn , those are brilliant questions that can help a wayward take deep look inside themselves.

Only problem is that WWs in particular do not seem capable of letting their logical side control them. They are CONSUMED by their feelings. WHs exhibit this as well but usually no way near to the same extent.

She could logically understand that a twice divorced father of 4 kids from different woman, won't be a good step father for her kids. But the fog makes her think, for her, it's different. "You don't understand what we had." Everything before it doesn't compare.

I've actually read threads of WWs on LS that in that rare moment of introspection, admit that they wish they could leave even their kids for OM. I imagine, a few weeks ago, Mrs Barry was of that mindset.

She said he was so sweet and would shower her with compliments. According to her they would also have meaningful discussions about life their families etc. Said she had butterflies around him and felt like a teenager in high school. Also said she was attracted to him physically and mentally. This was a very bad affair... I am now going to treat her more as a roommate until she completely proves to me that she's sorry. I was inimate with her today using protection of course. Did not cuddle or anything afterwards to be honest I just needed to blow off some steam/frustration while giving me that dopamine release. She initiated not me, she just asked if I was up for it. I probably messed up but I'm not sure, I let her know this doesn't change anything and I'm not going to be looking for something to f*** outside of our marriage like her.

She said she understands and is going to try to "win me back" I think she's just looking at this all wrong. I know counseling has been helping her but maybe I should go with to get my say and show her how I really feel.

I know a lot of people wonder why I'm still with her. Well our past is just too much for me to let go of. If she complies with everything I ask (which she has) I can't accuse her of not trying. I can be angry/upset yes, I just can't stomach knowing there was a chance to fix this and I wasn't willing to try. She has said although she doesn't feel in love with me she loves and cares about me and doesn't want anything bad to happen to me and wants us to stay together.

I read every single persons advice on the forums I am apart of. Whether i agree with it or not i smile knowing that the people giving me the advice/feedback want the best for me. If i didn't have the people here and on loveshack to vent to I wouldn't be able to get through this. My wife has been brutally honest about certain things. Better than me being lied to though.

[This message edited by barry22 at 10:31 PM, February 21st (Tuesday)]

So she is in IC?

Are you?

I would wait to go with her to her IC for the time being, look to possibly start MC later once she shows some real changes in herself.

BTW, nothing wrong with being with her like that, if anything it will meet both of your physical needs within the M while you work through things.

As long as it is mutual and emotionally acceptable, I would see it as a good thing.

Barry.

There is a LOT to be said about her honesty.

However… being honest and truthful is not the same as being logical.

Like her comment about them having meaningful discussions about their families…

WHAT!!!

That’s like Hitler discussing ethics with a Rabbi.

How can any conversation with the catalyst for the damage about family be meaningful while committing an act that endangers the family???

There is one human trait that I learned of in the police. When I joined, I went through the cliché of being assigned to an old veteran. Once when we had just dealt with some minor incident he told me to note that no matter what somebody had done they would justify or excuse their actions.

Like a rapist would claim the woman wanted it. A mugger would point out that he only threatened violence and if the victim had complied he wouldn’t have had to punch him. A drunk driver would claim he wasn’t that drunk and the trip was of life-importance. The burglar that the crime was victimless since everybody is insured. The molester claiming the 12-year girl looked 18…

It was a very rare case where I arrested anyone that would simply raise up their hand and accept total blame for their action. There were a lot of people I arrested more than once but I don’t remember EVER having arrested anyone again AFTER they acknowledged their blame… It’s IMHO an integral part of recovery.

I’m telling you this because what your wife is sharing NOW is only the truth as SHE sees it. It’s still full of logical mistakes and misunderstandings. The truth as SHE sees it isn’t the TRUTH.

The hard part about reconciling is that you are reconciling with the person that hurt you and YOU too are in an emotionally bad way. To get results you need to accept or learn that her honesty has immense value because – if nothing else – it indicates where she is in recovery.

One useful tool is to look at your wife as two people: There is the W and that’s the woman you want. Then there is the WW. When your W opens up it’s the W, but once she starts justifying her affair (and the “meaningful conversations” is justification) then that’s the WW jumping in.

Once again Barry: When she does say things that hurt you then remember YOU are perfectly allowed to remind her that these emotions impact you and your will to reconcile.

Barry, I think you have to debunk her assertions. From what you see, they had no meaningful conversations. They had sex in cars with compliments and ego kibbles. She got drunk and gave blowjobs at work. He was very sweet, he helped her undress her clothes so nicely. This is the truth of it. You have some evidence, that's what it shows.

I like Bigger's analogies because cheating is wrongdoing, and the same rationalizations and excuses apply.

I don't expect her to get it immediately, but I would hope she will consider what you say and realize it sooner.

My wife told me her feelings were real. True enough, I told her, but her "reality" was not truth. She emphasized compliments and discounted my actions. In essence, she doesn't appreciate you. His little compliments and sweetness and screwing her are much more important than your life of love and devotion.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 6:41 AM, February 22nd (Wednesday)]

Oh, the feelings ARE REAL.

Only they don ‘t have the correct label. Lust and Love both start with L and are both 4 letter words. Easy to get them mixed up…

Think of it this way Barry: Would it be easier for your wife to say A or B:

A) Our conversations were so deep and soulful and our connection so intense that sex was amazingly unique

B) I was getting attention from a man and I wanted more. When I realized, I had things to offer him that made him show me even more interest I offered sex to get that interest and the high it gave me.

I’m guessing A…

One more thing Barry…

If the relationship was so intense and true and love based and if OM followed her to the car-park and all that when she quit… Why has he left her alone?

I find the absolute no-contact a bit worrying… I’m happy if your wife is respecting NC but I would be really surprised if OM hasn’t somehow in some way reached for her. Once again back to the honesty… If your wife tells you that OM sent her a message via Facebook or through a joint friend, then that’s not her fault. Appreciate the honesty. But if she responds or even if she deletes such a message without telling you… that is a problem