SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Does this make sense to anyone at all or am I just losing my mind?

It makes perfect sense to me. Maybe it's because I lived for decades with rugsweeping on both sides of madhatterdom. My work showed me how I reacted badly to pressures in my relationship, and why I needed to own that, but it didn't negate the existence of those pressures. They were real. They involved poor decisions made by my BH as well as by me. I'm not saying that's the case in every relationship, but it was in ours. We were both conflict avoidant and afraid of being alone, and we both chose coping mechanisms that exacerbated our problems. My cheating made that situation ten times worse, but it didn't wipe the slate clean, and we did ourselves no favors by pretending that it did.

I often see the statement here that both partners are responsible for issues in the marriage, but I rarely see any exploration of that, because again, there seems to be a collective fear of venturing into blame shifting when talking about toxic behavior by a BS. If you had tried to explore your H's selfishness before he became a WS, it is almost certain that you'd have been met with a chorus of reminders that that was no justification for cheating. That's true, and the reiteration is understandable. After all, the mission of this site is surviving infidelity, not rebuilding your marriage. The fact that the two goals are intertwined for many of us can create conflicting messages -- and for people who don't choose R, some of those messages seem utterly irrelevant. Apart from RAs and actual abuse, a WS will always be in an awkward position asserting that they deserve more from someone they once cheated on. Over time, keeping your own offenses in front of you 24/7 can harden your self-blame to where you never feel justified in expecting change.

speaking from my experience and feelings toward my WS, the progression on my end isn’t about believing in her. In fact, believing in her and holding hope was something I had to let go to be able to show up for myself properly. As long as my work was tied to her I wasn’t getting anywhere. It had to be about me.

Oh, yeah absolutely.

I think my brain is muddled and I am unable to express myself as clearly because there are a lot of concepts that I am not separating.

I think my individual journey really even early on was for me and about me. It was about my reckoning of not wanting to be this type of person. I have said a lot on this site, change is selfish. You have to be sick of your own bullshit essentially. I knew I was a better person than what I was in having an affair. I knew I had grown to hate my life because I didn't manage it properly. None of what has happened since then negates that for me.

What I meant is in order to rebuild a relationship you have to believe in that other person. (and yes logically I understand it's too early for that, but emotionally you want some sort of path I guess? Hard to explain but you trace it all in your head regardless if you are to the point of trying R or not?) As the WS, I believed in my husband and that he and our marriage was the prize. That is separate from learning to believe in yourself?

Yes, I know I am mixing all sorts of concepts and really my emotional side comes out here because I am not at all careful with my wording as I had been previously.

I often see the statement here that both partners are responsible for issues in the marriage, but I rarely see any exploration of that, because again, there seems to be a collective fear of venturing into blame shifting when talking about toxic behavior by a BS. If you had tried to explore your H's selfishness before he became a WS, it is almost certain that you'd have been met with a chorus of reminders that that was no justification for cheating. That's true, and the reiteration is understandable. After all, the mission of this site is surviving infidelity, not rebuilding your marriage. The fact that the two goals are intertwined for many of us can create conflicting messages -- and for people who don't choose R, some of those messages seem utterly irrelevant. Apart from RAs and actual abuse, a WS will always be in an awkward position asserting that they deserve more from someone they once cheated on. Over time, keeping your own offenses in front of you 24/7 can harden your self-blame to where you never feel justified in expecting change.

YES.

And, I am really seeing this in the opposite way in my thread. Understanding something is not the same as excusing it. I do not look back on the dynamics of our relationship and think "no wonder I cheated". No. That part is on me. It's like you said it doesn't negate some of the issues in our marriage. Writing on this site for a long time reinforced really why *everything* was my fault. I accepted all that and moved forward. This makes me look back, you know?

Honestly though, maybe it was rugsweeping, but I felt like we had created a new marriage. He was different in that new marriage. I felt like that was enough, and we didn't need to rehash because it seemed like he "got" some of the things he wasn't doing or we were not doing together. That's why it's been hard at times to be angry. But, when I look at the history, yeah I can get angry. I can see this is not new, this has not all been created by me. And again, I am really not talking about either affair. I am talking about the marriage in itself, and in it's entirety.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:08 AM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

I think that, and I’m not in R so I can’t for sure say...but I think that after looking at ourselves and doing our work, both BS and WS, then we can look at one another and see where we stand in terms of the relationship. I don’t focus on what I want (whether R or D) because focusing on healing from betrayal and addressing unhealthy copes, and past triggered trauma, and setting proper boundaries on top of “life-ing” feels like enough on my plate to weed through.

Once this all happens and I’m caught up with my emotional “baggage” and feel relatively healthy, I’ll see where I’m at in terms of what I want in my romantic life. Depending on circumstances at that point, I may see where my WS is at in terms of her own journey in her healing. If we are both in a space at that point that I feel is safe for me to journey down, I’ll look at whether I’m even capable of extending grace and having enough compassion to embrace the idea of R. Who knows really, I can’t say. I know right now it’s a hard pass.

Without the work on her end or mine though - I find it to be a moot point to even journey through mentally.

Eta: I will say that as I progress in my healing I’m finding it more and more challenging to sustain an ihs with someone that’s not healthy. While my work has helped me detach and helped with the hurt she used to cause me, I’m healthier now to see that detached or not - living with someone that’s toxic and doesn’t hold themselves accountable, and isn’t trustworthy is not healthy for me. So far as I’ve continued to truck along my path it’s looking like when I come to steady ground, D may be what we are ultimately looking at. For now I just focus on me and allow for us to roommate and coparent together. It helps in many practical ways in the mean time.

[This message edited by maise at 10:30 AM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

I can understand that, Maise. Logically at least.

Maybe where it's only a few weeks out and prior to that it was like we were on our honeymoon and getting ready to leave on our first trip in the RV. It makes me just want to go back to that. It makes me want to believe it's possible we can go back there and it be true this time. I am sure that I will gain clarity and begin to separate that stuff and put certain things aside as time goes along.

Right now it's like a bomb went off and I am running around trying to look at at these pieces it left in its wake. I want some assurance back and logically I know it's not coming back any time soon.

The other thing that is very hard is over the last 3 years our decision to stay together brought many blessings to our lives. I was so thankful to spend time with the kids together, so thankful for all the memories we were able to create that if we hadn't stayed together would never have happened. When I think about the future of our relationship it's hard not to think about the blessings that staying together might bring in the same way. That there would be times we would be doing something and look at each other and think "thank goodness we worked on this and stayed together". I felt the grace of that, it's hard not to think that grace could exist again?

And, the next moment I am thinking about the ways this relationship has made me feel like shit and my self protective side wants to dwell there.

I am sorry guys, I am a mess. I am sure it's hard to even decipher what the hell I am going on about.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:29 AM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

I understand why SI keeps the focus on self and the work we all need to do after we get here. We can’t very well love people in a healthy way if we’re trapped in a form of damaged esteem or self-loathing. However, if we’re trying to determine our next steps, be it to rebuild a relationship or move on — I think you’re on to something Hiking — in the need for each partner to believe in the other.

With this current reset, it’s a very difficult premise for both people, to start over the template of another start over.

And maybe for me, it’s perspective, but I always believed in my wife. I think she lost faith in herself. Even after discovery, it was more about can she get back to believing in herself enough to be a safe partner?

At the end of the day, I think every relationship has to be about enhancement. Does this person make my life better? Can I be my best self with this person and help them be the best version of themselves?

If there is a chance at that, to me, it’s worth the work and all the mountain climbing, etc., and/or insert uphill battle metaphor here.

Im so sorry, Hikingout. I remember that feeling well.

I remember the pain being so unbearable from the betrayal that I wanted nothing more than to go back to what it was. I wasn’t necessarily happy in the former situation, but it beat the pain I was in! That pain was too much for me at the time, I didn’t know what to do with it. I wanted out. To escape that reality and go to something comfortable. As I kept realizing that that was just (obviously) not possible, I did what I knew to do and did it at 1,000. Escape through unhealthy destructive copes to “mute the pain”.

That kind of pain couldn’t be muted. Facing myself head on and letting go of “what we had” (or so I thought) was the only way out. Leaning into reality. Leaning into the hurt. Working it out piece by piece.

You don’t need to apologize for anything, this is (IMO) one of the most challenging things to recover from. I’m sorry you’re feeling this way and you’re here at all. (((((Hikingout)))))

At the end of the day, I think every relationship has to be about enhancement. Does this person make my life better? Can I be my best self with this person and help them be the best version of themselves?

If there is a chance at that, to me, it’s worth the work and all the mountain climbing, etc., and/or insert uphill battle metaphor here.

Yes, in my softer times I think this way too. Then sometimes I think well, he isn't the only person you can have this with in the future. And I know both things are actually true that one thought doesn't negate the other.

At the same time, I tend to think that even if it's never been perfect we did have something special that not everyone gets to have. A shared sensibility, an ease of being on the same page a lot, the physical side of our relationship has always been very strong. And, we share a history that would never be there with someone else.

It's hard not to think about trying to R, it ultimately is what my heart wants. But it's going to be a long time I think before my heart and head is in unison. I don't believe in him right now, I just don't discount that he possibly could still make me believe in him in the future. At the same time I hate he made me believe so much in him this past couple of years whilst cheating on me. So, I feel so many things and sometimes all at once.

I know I don't have to pressure myself to make permanent decisions, and in most things there is no such thing as a permanent decision. You just miss being the way you are used to being with your spouse and at the same time are afraid to hope.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:05 AM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

That kind of pain couldn’t be muted. Facing myself head on and letting go of “what we had” (or so I thought) was the only way out. Leaning into reality. Leaning into the hurt. Working it out piece by piece.

Yes, and that's why I think I am looking so much at our preA marriage. I am bringing back some of that hurt and frustration I used to feel over some of his selfish ways of being. Over his emotional distance. His claims of "I know this is what you want, but I am not that person". I can just as easily go back to those conversations and think well you should have believed him.

I think you are expressing yourself pretty clearly tbh. You seem pretty lucid. What you're going through seems normal given the circumstances.

It's not your fault he cheated. I know you understand this but I'm not sure you've quit the self-blame. And I don't just mean your own A, I mean your behavior pre and post-A. Don't blame yourself for not speaking up AGAIN. This isn't the reason he remained selfish and it isn't the reason he cheated.

This delicate balance of who takes how much responsibility for what is why marriage is hard, and I think it's why R (and marriage in general) so often doesn't work. As a WS, an important part of the work is deconstructing all the ways you made everything someone else's fault, and recognizing your own responsibility. Feeling empowered because you know that whatever other people do, you always have choices.

In practice, in R the WS can go a little too far and take too much responsibility for the problems in the marriage, because for perhaps the first time they see how they could have done things differently and that might have gotten them a better result. I think this is normal and part of the process. I think it's also normal for some idealization of the BS to occur. After all, they have given you another chance when you didn't deserve it, you feel bad for having demonized them, you rediscover the good things about them, etc. Idealizing your husband gave you strength to continue the work you had begun. He was someone worth "winning".

All I'm saying is don't feel bad because you feel like you didn't speak up once again. You were happy, things were improving. If you had seen any outward signs of what he was doing, I believe you'd have said something. But you were good, understood that this is a process, were happy with the results so just gave him some space. It's his fault he didn't use this time to work on himself as well. There's nothing you could've done. You were doing your part, he should've done his. Instead, he cheated. Genius.

I know I don't have to pressure myself to make permanent decisions, and in most things there is no such thing as a permanent decision. You just miss being the way you are used to being with your spouse and are afraid to hope.

Zero pressure to decide and yes, even if you do decide, you can change your mind at any time. Understanding that as HoldingTogether once reminded — we’re not in a hostage situation. We get to choose our path, every, single, day.

There is something liberating in knowing we can always flex our free will in a good way.

Afraid to hope is definitely that early pain after discovery. No rush to process that pain either. For better or worse, our minds are constantly generating possible outcomes, which goes into overdrive while in pain. It’s also an ally in that you know there is more than one way through all this stuff.

So move forward at your pace.

Be bold about what YOU want and need. Feeling bold may not be on your radar, but aim for it anyway.

I think you are expressing yourself pretty clearly tbh. You seem pretty lucid. What you're going through seems normal given the circumstances.

That's good to know, I guess I feel like so much of what I am saying is misunderstood. I assume that's likely more my way of communicating that's causing that. And, I know I am not thinking a lot in my posts, they just flow and then before I know it I have written a novel.

It's not your fault he cheated. I know you understand this but I'm not sure you've quit the self-blame. And I don't just mean your own A, I mean your behavior pre and post-A. Don't blame yourself for not speaking up AGAIN. This isn't the reason he remained selfish and it isn't the reason he cheated.

I think this is just a product of what is different if you were the ws first. I am not blaming his affair on me not speaking up. Though I can see why it sounded that way now. I am admonishing myself a bit for thinking I had gotten good at speaking up through my work and just see that I still wasn't. I don't take that as being hard on myself, just it's clarity that I haven't been as brutally honest as I thought I had been if that makes sense.

I really do not think I blame myself for my H's decision to have an affair and lie to me about it. But, I do still have to be cognizant of the work I was doing. And, maybe that's what you guys are hearing. New BS probably don't bring that to the whole thing in the beginning. To me, I know this situation is the hardest thing I have faced since my own affair and I guess I am just keeping a check on my coping and some of the things I know I am prone to do when the going gets rough.

In practice, in R the WS can go a little too far and take too much responsibility for the problems in the marriage, because for perhaps the first time they see how they could have done things differently and that might have gotten them a better result. I think this is normal and part of the process.

You are probably right about that being normal. But, his affair blew the roof off of that.

All I'm saying is don't feel bad because you feel like you didn't speak up once again. You were happy, things were improving. If you had seen any outward signs of what he was doing, I believe you'd have said something. But you were good, understood that this is a process, were happy with the results so just gave him some space. It's his fault he didn't use this time to work on himself as well. There's nothing you could've done. You were doing your part, he should've done his. Instead, he cheated. Genius

Makes a lot of sense. Maybe the not speaking up was not proof of my lack of WS work. I am just always looking for those blindspots, I have programmed myself to do so.

OldWounds - I don't have anything to add to what you just said. I feel everything you say is so positive and I can see how it's on point and true. I am so appreciative of you being a voice of reason.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:17 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

I really don't think you're being misunderstood too much. People just point out things they think could be an issue. We read what you write and project our own experiences, and it may or may not apply. I encourage you to keep speaking/writing what's on your mind and not overthink things.

I think you're maybe a little defensive because of your conflicting roles as WS and BS. You don't want to sound like you're undoing your WS work but you also want to get those feelings of being betrayed out of your chest. You want to say all the "right" WS things but now you feel like you can't.

I think you get to experience being a BS. The phrasing of that is weird but what I mean is that, IMO, you get to feel the same feelings as a BS who isn't also a WS. I think you can give yourself permission to fully do that, and not keep reminding everyone (and yourself) that you were at fault first. There'll be time to balance things out again. Do you feel like you're at risk of going back to the same patterns that led to your A, or is this a Caesar's wife kind of thing?

The fact that your H cheated doesn't say you didn't speak up enough and your work was insufficient. It says nothing about you.

I think you can give yourself permission to fully do that, and not keep reminding everyone (and yourself) that you were at fault first.

I do get that, I don't feel that way, it's just my affair is a time marker, it's also relevant sometimes to what I am saying. I also will always likely identify more with being a WS, maybe not but I don't think that's uncommon. I have heard foreverlabeled mention that as well.

There'll be time to balance things out again. Do you feel like you're at risk of going back to the same patterns that led to your A, or is this a Caesar's wife kind of thing?

Yes. I am at risk of those patterns and that is a concern some of my learning as I have said has gone untested. Meaning, everything is always easier to practice when things are smoother. I am not worried I am at risk to have another affair. If I had a choice between an affair and sticking a fork in my eye I would say call the ambulance. But, yeah, I have worked hard on my coping, and conflict avoidance, and all the things that contributed to my overall unhappiness. I am not willing to compromise my boundaries on some things any more and I do think I have to be watchful of it.

Also, I get what you are saying about "You get to be a BS" but at the same time there is aspects of that which CAN be hypocritical. I fully recognize though, I did the work. I do not think it's hypocritical to ask that of him. I do not think it's hypocritical to say I need to wait and see on R, even if I want it and even if it seems like he is at least initially cleaning up his mess.

But, there are definitely aspects that I think would be hypocritical, and some of it does have to do with understanding the behavior more than a brand new BS would. I have to be careful not to assume I understand it though, this is a different person with different issues than I have.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:52 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

Hiking Out, as much as I hope you are able to find moments to disengage from the whole situation and take a step back, I am not surprised your mind is unable to rest. You're a deep thinker. :)

RE: infidelity occuring in a vacuum...it leads me to ask the questions (to anyone, not particularly HO), "If a person is unhealthy enough to make the choice to cheat, is it inevitable that they will do so? Are there marriages in which people assume martial health based on fidelity, when the truth is that had a certain life event occured (loss of a child, for instance) it would have triggered a *potential* WS to choose to cheat? Or perhaps a fear of financial ruin if caught and not respect for his or her spouse is the only thing preventing a wayward thinker from starting an affair? Are those marriages still "good" marriages? Or just ignorantly blissful?"

(No doubt most BSs would rather be ignorantly blissful that deal with the atomic bomb which is infidelity, but hopefully you get what I'm asking.)

Certain internal circumstances (poor coping mechanisms, CSA, addiction, narcissism) and external circumstances (being denied sex/sexless marriage, being treated with contempt or ignored, etc.) make it easier for a WS to justify their affair to themselves. Some provide a definite emotional handicap and genuinely make a marriage miserable, and the WS's choice to cheat doesn't make external circumstances less real--assuming there wasn't history rewriting going on.

But at the end of the day, there is always another choice.

People tend to look at things in terms of fairness instead of justice..."Your spouse cheated on you? They deserve to have you cheat on them!" Even if we know it makes no moral sense, I think it's a natural part of being human, to weigh our sins against one another's. And yet, a revenge affair rarely seems to level the playing field for most madhatters.

Has your husband shown that he recognizes his need to change? Is he motivated to do so? If he hasn't, you are stymied at this point. He explained the cause of your affair, if I remember correctly, as a result of your nervous breakdown (his words). That *seemed* to be the way he coped with it. Or perhaps that's the public reason he gave to SI in place of having to interact?

His joining in order to defend you makes his posts more understandable. That speaks to a protectiveness on his part, but do you think he was stuffing his resentment at the same time, to be able to conduct his own affair concurrently? Or do you think he was motivated by wrongly feeling that he needed his affair in order to be able to move forward with your marriage and not leave. Did he feel the need to hurt you back in order to let go of his resentment?

I wonder if he is unwilling to look at your affair as a destructive CHOICE you made vs something that you did when you weren't yourself (i.e., an element of it being beyond your control), because deep down he unable to look at himself as responsible for CHOOSING to cheat. To recognize he made a choice to cheat means he has recognize you also had a choice, and vice versa. I am genuinely wondering these things, not telling you they're facts. I don't think it's possible for SI to draw many solid conclusions about his mindset, since we're several degrees removed from the situation. I could be way off here.

HO, please don't feel like you have to answer my question above or address any of them at all if it's making things worse, or if you feel you've already addressed them. The last thing you need is to have more stress.

Questions are good. I am a very deep thinker, and as I have mentioned writing helps me. It always has, and it was a lifesaver as a WS. I get so tangled up inside but writing it all down, it helps.

My emotional exhaustion/nervous breakdown, that is a good question. I am not sure to the extent that played a role, but it has been a discussion point with us and even his IC.

I think between that and my self-flagellation, he didn't want to make me feel worse, he wanted to help me get better. I do believe it caused him to not express all his harder feelings, especially his anger. I think it's ultimately what made him relent on the divorce at the time. He felt like he was abandoning me when I was sick I think, and then I had just gotten stable and he didn't want me to go back to spiraling. Honestly, that might have not been great, but in many ways I think it probably did allow me to get more stable and get on the right path. I just didn't know that was happening at his expense. He isn't putting it in these terms really, but I don't think what he is saying is all that different than that.

But, I don't think that's different than what I see BH's talk about on this site. The MOST common thing I say to a bh is "tell her". I think men in general aren't as good as expressing and processing, it's not what they are often taught growing up. Especially in my husband's generation and above. If you are a BH and reading this, for crying out loud, tell her. Don't sacrifice your mental health for hers.

I think looking back, we did only a really short stint of marriage counseling. I did IC forever, he did IC not at all. I would have maybe pushed for a little more out of our MC that might have picked up more on him holding back. But, at the same time, who knows if he recognized it and if he would have even said anything to her about it.

I don't say any of this explains or excuses his affair, but as you said there is a state of mind, and things you have to dissect. They don't have to be the reason for the affair for them to be important to gain an understanding of each other or to talk about how you want to change it moving forward.

Has your husband shown that he recognizes his need to change? Is he motivated to do so?

It's early, but yes, he seems to be. I am really starting to believe that in the last six months or so he didn't know how to proceed but he knew what he ultimately wanted. I don't believe that all the time, but my gut says that what he is describing rings true. I am trying not to base that on my own hopes but overall yes. I would even venture to say he seems remorseful and I never believed it was possible people gained that so quickly. I thought it took unwinding. I am always suspicious of WS who come here saying they are. Time will tell more on that. He has already fooled me before and I am not going to forget that in the middle of all the other stuff.

I wonder if he is unwilling to look at your affair as a destructive CHOICE you made vs something that you did when you weren't yourself (i.e., an element of it being beyond your control), because deep down he unable to look at himself as responsible for CHOOSING to cheat. To recognize he made a choice to cheat means he has recognize you also had a choice, and vice versa. I am genuinely wondering these things, not telling you they're facts.

I don't think so. I think that I have been very accountable about the fact it was a choice despite my mental state. He has not really tried to blame me for the affair, or even his AP, even though to me some of what happened is so obviously predatory on her part. But, my AP was predatory as well, and that doesn't take away my accountability for my choices.

His joining in order to defend you makes his posts more understandable. That speaks to a protectiveness on his part, but do you think he was stuffing his resentment at the same time, to be able to conduct his own affair concurrently?

We have not pinned down a timeline very well yet, I am not sure what came first the affair or him joining. I think the two things had nothing to do with each other, it's an example of his compartmentalization. It's kind of the same thing for me. I can say bad things about him but when others do I think I do have a tendency want to defend him, at least some of the time. I don't think that aspect is all that complicated. He felt I was here every day just beating myself up. And, I don't feel like I have beat myself up in a long time now but back then I think he was probably right.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:41 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

"If a person is unhealthy enough to make the choice to cheat, is it inevitable that they will do so? Are there marriages in which people assume martial health based on fidelity, when the truth is that had a certain life event occured (loss of a child, for instance) it would have triggered a *potential* WS to choose to cheat? Or perhaps a fear of financial ruin if caught and not respect for his or her spouse is the only thing preventing a wayward thinker from starting an affair? Are those marriages still "good" marriages? Or just ignorantly blissful?"

I don't know, I don't know if anyone knows.

But, I don't think so. I think mental health/mental state is something that can change. People change, we evolve and we devolve. And, I don't think I ever really had a proclivity towards cheating, until I cheated. It's not inevitable, it's a choice that is made at the time it happens.

Perhaps at times we are more vulnerable to act out or to cope in unhealthy ways, in that way I have always been that way. I just never did anything in that arena where it hurt someone so badly like with cheating. I was married once before and miserable, we had a sexless marriage (his choice) and it never crossed my mind to cheat. I have had other times of crisis and depression. I feel the one that hit prior to the affair was the most multi-faceted in that you can point at 3 or 4 things happening all at once including the mental exhaustion. But, still it's not the reason I cheated. It might have made me more vulnerable perhaps but I cheated because I made a choice to cheat. So did my husband.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:55 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

I could be wrong here, but this doesn’t feel like a typical revenge affair. I didn’t have one in the sense that I didn’t have sex with anyone else while we were married, but the revenge part came in to it as I told her I wanted to divorce so I could have sex with someone else. The affair wasn’t there, but among other issues, the revenge played into it. Our marriage never returned to a good place after what she did.

This doesn’t seem to be the case with you. You were in the process of mapping out what should have been a really happy and fulfilling time. If revenge played into it you both wouldn’t have been all in as you seem to be. I’m sure your affair played into it as it was easier for him to justify it, but it just doesn’t feel like that was a strong motivator. He had an an affair like many do. They let their defenses down, an outside party recognized it, and made themselves available, and they made a stupid decision. In that sense I agree with the others that his affair should be treated as such. It was his stupid choice to cheat, but my guess is that if you hadn’t, this would have happened anyway.

You should be proud of all the work you did to right the ship and become a safe partner. Your decision as to what’s next should now be is he safe and is this person the one you want to spend the rest of your life with. He is going to need to do a lot of work, just as you did. If he doesn’t you should walk away knowing you did everything you could. It’s on him now.

I do hope you can make it through. In a sense going forward should be easier for you as his trump card of your affair that keeps a remorseful WS in a secondary position is gone. You are now captain of your own ship. You can’t at this point settle for anything you don’t want. Go forward on your terms.

HikingOut, I wonder if you’ve ever looked into attachment theory? You mentioned some things that kind of set off my radar a bit.

I’ve only learned about it because of SI and it explained a lot to me. My WH has textbook avoidant attachment and I’m about as anxious/insecure attachment as you can get. They are the perfect match for an unpleasant time:) Now that I’ve learned about this, Ive discussed it with my WH and our MC and we’ve figured out ways to work on getting to a secure attachment, but it was really enlightening to me and helped me to see how we got to where we were in the first place.

While you are going back in time and looking over everything (I’m 99% sure every bs does this by the way), it might give you a little more understanding. I wish I had learned about it much sooner after dday. I don’t know if it will make you feel better or not, but I analyzed the proposal, when we moved in together, comments his best friend made back in 2004 when we met, the list goes on. Every single thing ever was gone over with a fine tooth comb over and over while my brain tried to make sense of what the hell happened and how I ended up in this situation. Someone once said something about putting together a 1000 piece puzzle with 500 pieces or something like that. It really is a trauma.

We are here if you need us.

Omg! So the AP has contacted H today. He did not respond to her. He is out of town and somehow she found that out and texted him from a different number. Basic stuff, she thought she deserved a conversation, closure. When he didn’t respond she tried to hint that she was pregnant. Um , bitch he has been clipped for twenty years. And btw how in the hell does she not even know that? How do you fuck someone for over a year and have no discussion on birth control? Oh you a special kind of stupid!!!

He composed a no contact on his own and we agreed he would send it as the response. He then blocked that number too. I knew it had gotten too quiet. I texted obs to let him know but haven’t gotten a response yet.