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I totally get it, and agree with you Walloped. Not telling the kids is a decision I had made, too (and mine are much older - 22 & 23). They eventually found out. Okay. No harm, no foul. They understand my instinct to protect them. I don't regret that decision one iota.

You're not ahead of where you "should" be. You're not behind. You are where you are, where you "should" be, because it is uniquely your situation.

Be patient w/ yourself. What you've described is perfectly normal. Your wife (to me) sounds remorseful. Her description sounds so much like my fWW's situation. As so many here do.

Good luck. And keep posting. It is hell; keep working through it. There's no easy path.

[This message edited by CanoeVA at 7:39 AM, August 17th (Monday)]

It sounds to me like she's trying. She's going to make mistakes along the way because she's been seeing things through her own filter. Everyone likes to think of themselves as good, so the predetermination will cause things to change in her mind. She may believe things that just aren't true. But over time, if she's trying to be honest, the filters will start to come off and she will see what she's done. (If she continues to want to see the truth.) To me, your story is a particularly sad one. I predict that she will eventually come to see everything more closely to reality. But what do you do about it? How do you deal with her betrayal? It's breathtaking to me because I can see what a nice guy you are. I can see what a nice family you have. Her betrayal seems almost evil. And I wonder, can she really have any nice thoughts about POS anymore?

Telling the kids? Eventually I think you have to. Their world has been attacked too. They deserve the truth. When they find out the truth, they will realize you've lied to them. That will be a double blow. Don't do it. Don't be a martyr Becoming a martyr is wrong on all fronts. But you don't have to tell them now. And you can make things age appropriate. The adult children should know. The younger ones don't have to right away. At least to my mind. But you're going to have to do what feels right for you.

As far as the people being unfairly negative to your wife, yeah, it's wrong. I would like to think they are doing so to help, but sometimes I'm not sure. It's almost like they want to see blood. You know your wife better than anyone. Certainly better than anyone here. Your eyes have been opened. Listen to the people here, but take what you need, ignore the stuff that's obviously not true.

Hang in there. Eventually you will start to feel better. You will come to some acceptance as to whether you want to D or R. You will probably swing both ways for a while. That's really the worst part in my mind. I remember loving her. Then I remember thinking I can't deal with it. She's disrespected me, she needs to pay. And then swinging back. Swinging between wanting to divorce someone and wanting to stay married is brutal. It's two enormous swings. It's horrible until you come to acceptance. And then you think you know what you want, and then you change your mind again. I couldn't really decide until I could see that she really put in the work and really gave up worrying about the outcome. When I realized, and it was demonstrated, that she would literally do anything for me, forever if needed, then I realized I might be able to live with her. I couldn't blame you either way you go. Good luck.

Walloped

You are killing yourself.

Slow down. Get some sleep.

Because if you crack you will not be good for any of your family let alone yourself.

I have said it before and I will say it again.

Your wife is selfish. You did not even factor into her infidelity. You were not even a thought.

That is good because her issues are her own. You nor the marriage are to blame.

That is bad because your wife was lying, cheating and living the single life right under your very nose and you did not pick up any signs at all.

IC is necessary for both of you. You cannot fix her issues.

And your "amazing" wife needs to figure out why/how she became so selfish that her infidelity occurred without a single guilty thought about you and her family.

She needs to understand why she needed all this attention from a man outside your marriage. Why not from you?

That level of validation she required is disturbing.

I think this fact alone scares your wife more than her losing you or the marriage.....

And she understands this.

Give her the time with a professional counselor to figure this out.

Because if she cannot sort this "selfishness" issue out in her head she will never ever be the woman, wife and mother you fell in love with all those years ago.

Slow down brother.

Focus more on you.

HM

PS

You can be vague with your children but it won't work. Children at any age are curious. Your vague explanation will only raise more questions.

Children love/worship their parents. They will want to help or support.

It is only natural.

[This message edited by happyman64 at 7:52 AM, August 17th (Monday)]

Walloped,

Tough one, man. My hope for you is that when your WW starts IC you won't have to listen to as much of her processing shit and will instead hear productive information.

Regarding the kids.....I don't agree with not telling the kids. Maybe don't tell them NOW, but particularly if you divorce, I feel they should be told. Family secrets are never good and they always get out. The kids will know something is wrong. Speculation for them is brutal. I told our children after WH failed to do so. The kids know I will give them the truth no matter how shitty it is. They don't trust WH farther than they can throw him. Choose carefully here, walloped.

I was very young - grade school- when my mother cheated and my parents divorced. I knew something was up. I had no idea what. Then out of the blue my mom said she was moving out and they were getting a divorce. My world imploded in that moment. Here's the kicker - no one told me about the affair until after she had died. That would have been really great information to have, because maybe I would have understood why she abandoned me (she was probably NPD). I could have talked to her about it as an adult and asked her WTF and asked her if she noticed the upheaval and pain she caused in my life. I've been in therapy for years because of her behavior towards me. Would have been nice to have had some other reason for her leaving that made sense to me....even as a child.

Walloped, I understand your hesitation about telling the kids. It took me over a year from DDay (and after the divorce) to tell my adult kids. I kept it from them, deeming that it did me no good to destroy their relationship with their mother. (Of course, my XWW refused to tell them.)

But here's why I did. My IC could clearly see that my carrying that secret and burden was both impairing my healing AND harming MY relationship with my kids. He gave me a line I've always remembered, "Secrets beget shame. Keep them long enough, and the shame becomes you."

I didn't want my kids finding out from anyone else. Keenly aware of my own feelings of betrayal, I sure as hell didn't want them feeling that way about me.

My IC coached and guided me in how to reveal what happened in a truthful, graceful way. TRUTH WITH GRACE. The definition of "grace"? "Free and undeserved favor."

And I pulled it off. My XWW didn't "deserve" the grace with which I told my kids, but hey, we're all broken in some way. But I needed the integrity and honor of doing it in that way. They could see my concern for their well-being. They deserved the truth, just as you and all of us here, did. And that truth didn't destroy their relationships with either of us. My kids didn't write off their mother; they have their own relationships with each of us.

In your case, your WW volunteered to tell them. I'd absolutely take her up on that and have her do it with you present in the room.

You and your WW may or may not divorce as a result of all this, but you and she will ALWAYS be their mother and father. Your kids will learn a lot from watching how you each wade through this crisis, and love you more for the honesty of your travails, no matter D or R.

TRUTH WITH GRACE vastly outweighs the harm of keeping secrets and creating a fresh betrayal.

Blessings, LA

[This message edited by livinganew at 9:13 AM, August 17th (Monday)]

Walloped- you're in crisis mode still. PERFECTLY normal.

There's time to tell the kids.

First things first.

A lot of food for thought regarding telling my kids. Thanks. I'm sure I've made many mistakes with them over the years - unfortunately there isn't a guide that comes along with birth. What to Expect…doesn't cut it. So, perhaps I'm making a mistake. But for now, I'm okay with that. Doesn't mean I won't see things differently in time. We'll see. And I may ask her to tell the older kids if I think they can handle it and it's important as part of her growth and ownership. But for now, I'm fine taking this path. But I appreciate everyone's input which I know stems, unfortunately, from experience.

You are killing yourself.

Slow down. Get some sleep.

Because if you crack you will not be good for any of your family let alone yourself.

I know. But I can't help it and I don't know what to do about it. I'm hoping IC can help me with this cause I feel my body, and my mind, breaking down. And I'm concerned I'm not being rational at a time when I really, really, need to have my shit together.

Walloped, a lot of us go through a grieving process for the spouse we had. so, not only are you grieving for the person you loved to the ends of the earth and back (and that person is gone, because at the point of the A, they only existed in your mind), you are now thrust into a new relationship already, and you don't very much like this new person.

nekorb - Hadn't really thought of it that way, but yes. Exactly, I think. And it's not that I don't like this person, but it's almost like I don't even know this person. And that floors me, because she looks like my wife, talks like my wife, smells like my wife, but my wife couldn't do this so it can't be her and I can't believe my lying eyes. So hello new person, and wow, I know that you're the type of person who could do something like betray 27 years of history. So why would I want to associate with you at all? But incredibly, I also know every positive thing about this new person. Things that are good and right. Things that I love and cherish. And I ask whether she truly is gone. Or is she lost or hiding? And the whole just really frazzles my mind.

I honor any choice you make in this regard, W. Yes, each of us can speak from hard experience and share it with you with the notion that there might be something to learn. And, as has been stated before--take what works and leave the rest.

I forgot another critical component of my decision to tell my adult kids and--notwithstanding your post just now--hope you don't mind if I share it.

As I may have shared way back, I went to a silent retreat (sponsored by the Jesuits) as part of my journey through infidelity, and as part of that they offered "consultations" with a resident priest there. I signed up looking for spiritual principles and guidance for how to tell my kids what happened. Here's how it went down...

The priest was very loving and direct (and I wrote it all down), starting with "You can only take responsibility for yourself. You can't be responsible for XWW; can't protect her." Further, "You shouldn't presume that your adult children need you to take care of them."

And, finally, the coup de grace: "One perfectly good reason for telling them is that it gives THEM an opportunity to take care of YOU." I promptly broke down and dissolved into tears. I'd carried that burden and secret for so long, on top of all the other BS that accompanies this journey; that insight really hit home

The last thing he said was, "Trust that they have the ability to be there for you." And that's the way it was borne out.

Hey, there's a lot going on, to say the least. First and foremost, as many on here have repeatedly said, is to care of you. No matter what happens, if you aren't doing that, it'll be much tougher for everyone.

Blessings, LA

You have to do what you think is right for you, but in regards to telling anyone, kids, friends, whatever, it's your own personal decision. But remember, you can never un-tell them. Just like all the other decisions in this whole crapfest, that decision doesn't have to be made today.

My personal choice was to not tell anyone except two trusted people, my little sister and a friend. Because I needed their support, and I could trust them not to talk. My thought was that if we were to R, then telling everyone would perhaps damage their relationship with my WW.

She wreaked all this havoc and destroyed our lives and basically killed me for nothing. For a lie. And she was so angry at him. She felt so low. And she knew she was breaking NC. But she needed to know if it was true. That she did this for nothing. That even all those feelings she had was a lie. And she didn’t know how she’d be able to live with that.

She couldn't live with herself if it turned out to be a lie? What is she so desperate to not be a lie (i.e. What is she so desperate to be the truth)? She swears that it’s not that she and the POS/OM had a future together so what was it?

She loved how he made her feel. She was selfish. She wanted to feel connected to him. Not because she was so in love with him, but because of how he made her feel about herself.

And she told him she loved him because it reinforced those feelings – and it made her feel so good about herself and that she needed it so much and craved it so much that she initiated sex to get it. And the more she did it with him, the better she felt about herself.

She should have realized right away that she shouldn’t call him. But she just needed to be validated again and feel worthwhile.

She wants the feelings she had during the affair to be real and validated. Sex with the POS/OM is hopelessly intertwined with those feelings.

The affair may be over but consciously or unconsciously she wants to retain those good feeling forever. She will do the responsible thing because you’re family, like a brother. She doesn’t want to hurt you. She will also do the responsible thing for the kids and to salvage what she can of her reputation.

She wants to grow old with you with your grandchildren playing at your feet but she also wants to maintain a cherished memory of the best time of her life when she felt on top of the world.

The memory will be like a trophy earned in an earlier life. When she’s playing with you and the grandkids she can glance up at it on the shelf and remember when she was so desired in another life. It being a lie would tarnish the trophy.

I know I sound like a broken record but f@ck that $hit. You need to take a pi$$ on that trophy.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 10:40 AM, August 17th (Monday)]

Hey Walloped,

Hold on to your sanity for just a bit longer and I promise it will get easier -- I am a "problem solver" too and remember the frenzy to solve the unsolvable when I was the BS.

Here are a couple of things I'd like you to think about. First, that the problem solving and fixing needs to come from your wife since they are her problems and she needs to do the fixing. Whatever else goes on in the marriage the behavior and decisions around the affair are all hers.

Since you've referred to personnel issues you've dealt with in the past consider an employee who you know could do great things if they got their head screwed on straight -- you tell them what they need to do, show them what help you can provide, and wait to see if they own it and do it. You want them to succeed but it is on them.

One thing about this approach towards your wife is that the self-centeredness, the focusing on her problems, in this light become what she needs to do. Of course she needs to look inward, that's where this came from and she needs to pull the causes out into the open and deal with them herself. She very much wants to do it to save her marriage, got it, but to be true and complete it needs to be based in making herself healthier and happier.

It may suck to hear that she needs to do this for herself, but at the same time you can draw a line between that and all the things she needs to do for you in helping you heal and hopefully saving her marriage. There is clearly a lot of love and goodness in the marriage and that gives it a reasonable chance of surviving.

The second thing I want to point out is that prior to the affair your perspective on your wife wasn't idealized and she wasn't perfect. She was a real human being with flaws -- I'm sure you could list some. Your marriage wasn't perfect either -- both of you could list some ways it fell short.

It's important to see that now when this horrible betrayal has put your love for your wife and the survival of your marriage in the balance. Of course you want to think things were so great and she was so wonderful "before" -- and they were pretty great and she was pretty wonderful. The problem with taking the "she was perfect, we were perfect" approach is that it means things are irrevocably broken now since perfection once broken can't be mended.

I am sure you know that rationally but I am warning you that as a very rational problem solver you will sometimes be unaware when emotion takes hold in either your problem statement or your problem solving.

Your wife of course has regret and fear, but I believe she also has genuine remorse and a lot of focus on you. If you keep in mind that she must focus on herself to fix the things you need her to fix, let her do what works for you in helping you to begin to heal, and let some time pass to see that an imperfect person and imperfect marriage can still be really great, you may get past this just fine.

In any event, you have conducted yourself in a way that brought tears to my eyes. I too have made career decisions that limited what I could do in order to do right by my wife and my children. In a line from that old movie "Chariots of Fire": "regrets, sure, but no doubts". That shouldn't change for you no matter how all this settles out: it was and will remain the right call. Best wishes.

Exactly, I think. And it's not that I don't like this person, but it's almost like I don't even know this person. And that floors me, because she looks like my wife, talks like my wife, smells like my wife, but my wife couldn't do this so it can't be her and I can't believe my lying eyes. So hello new person, and wow, I know that you're the type of person who could do something like betray 27 years of history. So why would I want to associate with you at all? But incredibly, I also know every positive thing about this new person. Things that are good and right. Things that I love and cherish. And I ask whether she truly is gone. Or is she lost or hiding? And the whole just really frazzles my mind.

I hope you pose just these thoughts as questions to your wife.

I wonder what her answers will be?

But you do have to survive yourself to get there....

Patience Walloped. You cannot fix everything or make those positive changes happen through sheer force of will.

You just might die trying.

Your wife has to want to be there.

Your wife has to want her family to stay together.

Your wife has to want her marriage.

But most importantly your wife has to honor her commitments and promises she made to herself first.

Patience.

HM

A couple of things from another BS. It sounds like you are on the fence about R but certainly leaning toward R (you keep saying how amazing she was). Sounds like from recent posts most are encouraging you to get out now.

You don't have to decide now, she has a LONG way to go to fix herself, and boy does she need some major IC. IC will help you too.

My situation was way different, the cheating had been 25 years earlier, WH stopped it on his own and there were many good times after it so I had a long history of happiness. I still think about it often, still HATE that it happened, I HATE the OW (a "friend"), and sometimes I HATE my WH for being such a pig. So I guess I am saying you are not ever going to forget it happened. Can you deal with that? Can you live with her after finding all this out?

As for telling the kids, I only had one DD and did not tell her. She was away at school when the shit hit the fan so didn't observe anything going on. I decided not to because she adores her father, thinks the word of him, like little girls should. I wanted her to believe there are good men out in the world, I didn't want her to be jaded, to think all men can be cheaters and liars (like I do).

All our situations are different and I imagine there are no right or wrong answers, we all have to do what we think is best for us and our family.

I said that she did that (holding hands) because she was so in love with him. That she wanted to shout it from the rooftops. She said no. It wasn’t that she loved him. Not like that. She loved how he made her feel. She was selfish. She wanted to feel connected to him. Not because she was so in love with him, but because of how he made her feel about herself.

And she told him she loved him because it reinforced those feelings – and it made her feel so good about herself and that she needed it so much and craved it so much that she initiated sex to get it. And the more she did it with him, the better she felt about herself and when she didn’t it was like withdrawal.

What she describes is exactly the kind of love you want to shout from the rooftops. You feel fantastic about yourself and therefore life in general.

Like a politician she changed your question to one she felt better about answering.

Her answer is that it's not the same mature love she has for you. She doesn’t have the history and deep ties with him that she has with you. But given the short time they have known each other and the limited social contact she loves him as much as anyone possibly could.

How did she feel about you when she had only known you for five months? If I found a letter written by my wife saying all those things about me early in our courtship, I would frame it.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 11:18 AM, August 17th (Monday)]

A couple of quick comments before heading to meetings.

Your W believing she would never get caught? I believe that. My W was absolutely certain she wouldn't. I know she really thought that. She had such self confidence (arrogance?) that she was always in control that she believed it. And she knew I totally trusted her which just enhanced her feeling of invincibility. So I believe your W on that one.

Again, that she simply forgot about you and the kids? I posted at length on that point a while back so won't belabor here. But after 30 years of conversation, observation and analysis, I know that is possible. Mine was self centered to the extreme. Whatever she wanted she got; and if it wasn't just handed to her, she went after it. Nothing could get in the way because if something did it was ignored or pushed aside. She was depressed and bored; wanted adventure and excitement. She ignored and pushed aside anything (me and the kids) to have her adventure and excitement. What she was "in the moment" nothing could enter her mind to interfere. So again, I see your W's actions in the same light.

We never told kids. I concur totally AT THIS POINT with your analysis. I will say this though. IF you D, I would tell them then. No need for them to think you were part cause of an actual D.

Finally, it's obvious you want to be on a fast track to resolution. There is no such track. I repeat my previous advice. Give yourself a break. Give it time. No pressure to make quick decisions.

Walloped - this is just my opinion and what I felt. I don't believe everyone else would agree. But I think your wife needs to feel shame. As Graywolf has, I think correctly, pointed out, your wife has all these great feelings from the affair. But then she says she didn't really love him. That's bullshit. She needs to feel genuine shame for her actions. And if she doesn't you can help that along. You can tell her that you forgive her, but that she disgusts you. You can tell her why you find her disgusting. Clearly relate it to the things she did in her affair. Her disgusting behavior. Her complete lack of concern for how she was killing you and ruining her family. Part of the reason I felt I could finally trust my wife is because she became nearly suicidal from shame. I realized she was ashamed of herself for her actions. If you don't get that from your wife, I don't think that's good. If she calmly says, "well, I compartmentalized, I didn't think about you and the kids. but I do NOW." That's not good.

In the wayward section some of the waywards talk about how it's bad to be stuck in a shame spiral. i agree. But these are people who are already ashamed of themselves and can't get out. After they have acknowledged how shameful their actions are and are so low they have to reach up to touch bottom, it doesn't serve a purpose. But man o man, if your spouse isn't ashamed of herself and really struggling about being a slut/piece of shit/ etc. after what she's done. Then you don't have someone you want to reconcile with imo.

again, just my thoughts and what went on with me.

[This message edited by mike7 at 12:08 PM, August 17th (Monday)]

Walloped,

I come around infrequently these days, wanted to toss out a couple of random tidbits.

No fast track on this. It is a slog. A marathon. Fast tracking = rug sweeping. Even if it all gets laid out there, there is still the processing. There's intellectually knowing you can't go back to the world before the A, and then there's living it.

You will be consumed with "why". I still am at times, 30 years later. I've learned there is no good enough answer to the "why" question, in that what you come up with will never satisfy you.

But that also it is not that hard of a question to answer, it's just you never like the answer. The answer to "why" is because she wanted to, and she thought she could.

So why did she want to? The answer to that lies within your own experience. Revisit the impact on yourself (literally, your Self) that you felt when you found out. The A is an attack on Who You Are, which was and is tied to your WW. A crushing blow on your Self. Well, the opposite of that crushing blow is the gigantic ego kibbles your WW got from the AP. Her Self gained tremendously from the A. The depths of your low gives you insight on the heights of her high.

Was he better/worse/uglier/more handsome/funnier than you so she could do this? Here's the deal. If you had an unknown twin brother who was like you in every possible way (except for he wanted an A for some reason) and he came on to your wife, so he offered absolutely nothing different from you other than a new blast of attention and affection, would she have taken the bait. Yes. It wasn't you.

How could she compartmentalize it? We're adults...we compartmentalize our lives all the time. How we act in one setting differs from another. We have deep, secret lives of our own. For a time, you and the kids were a supporting actor in her story. She was a master of the universe, cake eating to her heart's content.

I'm not a big fan of counseling to figure out "what is broken". She had feelings, which are poorly controlled. Will IC attempt to manipulate the feelings? Can you manipulate yours? Can you turn off your anger right now? And your love for her? If not, why do you expect her to? Does your R depend on that? It's a low probability of success.

Better in counseling to focus on what she controls 100%. Her actions. Not her feelings. Her actions. Changing feelings is like an exorcism. Changing actions is just being an adult, owning your shit, and doing The Right Thing. The beauty of putting actions first, is actions influence feelings.

This goes for you to. Your feeling are everywhere. Attempts to control them directly fail. But you CAN control your actions. You know what needs doing, just do it. The 180 is about this. take control. Do what needs doing.

The sad thing about all of this, is the marriage is not hers to heal. It is yours to heal. If your wife does absolutely everything perfectly in the steps leading to R, you will find that you are left carrying the tremendous burden of closing the final wounds and moving forward. It's not fair, it's not right, it is just the way it is. Is she worth it? Can the burden of this past be overcome? You can well know right now the answer is 'no'. Figuring out if the answer is 'yes' takes real time.

My WW's affair was almost 30 years ago. I love her, she's never, ever come close to doing this again, the scars we both bear are deep. The A informs everything in our life, good and bad. We are the crooked timber of humanity, after all.

Be patient, my friend.

I concur with others here, W, and encourage you to slow down... I remember thinking that if I UNDERSTOOD what had happened, it'd help the pain. But guess what? When I gained more understanding, it still hurt like a MF.

It's a long process, and it will take as long as it will take. Much like speeding in a car, you may put you and others around you at more risk if you move too fast.

IC helps; go to church, pray for help and strength; speak to your pastor (or whomever), spend time with your brother, eat, exercise, whatever you must do to keep sane amidst the insanity.

My body reacted to my trauma by going into shock and "high alert" ALL THE TIME. I lost weight, going below my high school weight, and I couldn't do a damn thing about it. Eating was a challenge; sleep was a big ass problem.

At eight months, I could feel my body start to relax. I knew then I was going to regain some weight, and did. After another 12 months, I started regaining more and more happiness and confidence, as well. I'm still on the journey.

It's an intense marathon unlike any other. Strength and prayers to you.

Blessings, LA

[This message edited by livinganew at 12:30 PM, August 17th (Monday)]