SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm getting back together and working things out with my BF. I'm sorry but I don't think it's appropriate if we see each other anymore ".

This suggests that you were going through some kind of separation, and that their relationship was legitimate. Do not cede that ground if it’s not true. You don’t mention if her AP even knows about you. If he doesn’t, from his point of view she’s been lying and cheating on him too.

If that’s the case the message should be more along the lines that she is in a long term relationship and has been cheating and she is going no contact with him. Of course you need to see and approve the message before it’s sent.

If you you’re still interested in gathering information the next time you check her phone look at messages with friends or family she typically tells "everything", especially if there’s anyone in her circle who has practiced infidelity before. Cheaters love to be told that they’re doing nothing wrong.

You can also buy a voice activated recorder and put it in her car under the seat (velcro) or in the pocket behind it. If she is confiding in someone a confrontation will usually provoke a conversation about her affair or even a phone call with the AP telling him to ignore the no contact message.

Frankly after 17 years of being a "girl friend" maybe she wants an actual marriage - the status of a wife. I don't know, it occurs to me.

Are you actually suggesting he propose to her in response to her cheating ?

[This message edited by gr8ful at 5:08 PM, Saturday, January 3rd]

No, gr8ful, she is reading into the WG's behavior and guessing at her motivations for cheating. Nobody is suggesting marriage as a response.

I'm about to say some things which I think some people here will potentially disagree with...

I think you and her need a conversation about EVERYTHING, the entire relationship, not just the cheating.

Now before I begin I will make a disclaimer that (especially as I have been cheated on myself so I do understand the devastation) I do not believe that cheating is ever the right thing to do, or a solution to any problem, whether you are happy in a relationship or not. To me relationships should be simple - if you're happy you shouldn't be tempted to cheat, and if you're not happy - tell me and we either resolve it or end it. Cheating is always wrong and nobody deserves this. I am truly sorry that you're going through this, it's horrendous.

Having said this, and kinda putting the cheating aside for a second, from what you've described in your posts, this does not sound like a healthy relationship to me. I think there are several issues here that need addressing. I'm sorry but this may come across as harsh.
- 17 years of being 'a girlfriend' despite her admitting to you that she would like to get married is a long time. You called it 'a road to marriage' and blamed her drinking for not wanting to commit to her in such a way. That's fine but let me ask you this: are you living together? Sharing bills and responsibilities? Do you consider her family your family? Do you share every day ups and downs? If the answer is yes, then you are already living like you're married and if her drinking is stopping you from having that legal commitment - why are you continuing this relationship? I hope what I'm asking makes sense. A 17 year road to marriage is a road to nowhere. I think if it was going to happen it would've by now. I'm so sorry to say it. Perhaps she does feel like she's not getting anywhere as she expressed to you that marriage is something she wanted. Again, not an excuse for cheating at all. She should just tell you whatever is going through her head if it involves you and your life but maybe this is something you should give consideration to and discuss with her in general. Like I said, putting infidelity aside.

- I grew up with an alcoholic. It's hard, I totally understand the struggle for anyone living with one and I don't need to go into how traumatic it can be but...you've admitted that you also have an active addiction. Yes, people argue that weed is less harmful than alcohol and I agree, alcohol is probably the worst of drugs but you are still calling her out for struggling with a substance...whilst struggling with a substance yourself. How does this help the communication between you? When you've smoked weed and she's had a drink?l are your conversations or time together productive? I think you both need to address the substances really and asap. Before anyone tells me that weed doesn't affect the way you behave or communicate I will strongly disagree. My ex smoked weed daily and conversations with him in the evening (when he smoked after work) were completely different to how sharp he was during the day. It does affect you. It probably affects everyone in a different way, you will know yourself best.

- bringing it back to the infidelity... My advice is this: instead of asking yourself why she did this or is doing this, ask yourself if this is the life you want. Ask her if this is the life she wants. In general. Is this a relationship you both want? Sounds to me like it isn't. You won't commit to marriage because of her drinking (which if she doesn't stop and she may not, won't lead anywhere) and she is cheating for her own reasons. I'm sorry if this is harsh, again, most will probably disagree with what I wrote here so feel free to ignore and only take what serves you.

BT,

If she’s brought up getting married, you were on the clock.

I think your time ran out.

Best wishes.

I must have missed the part where OP kept her shackled in the basement.

If she wasn’t happy she had options up to and including leaving. She chose to cheat.

^^^^THIS^^^

Sorry, but REALLY??? OP was on the clock and his time ran out for. . .getting cheated on because he didn’t propose?????

NOPE. NOPE. NOPE.

If she was unhappy about not getting married, she had plenty of reasonable and integrity-driven choices:

*tell her partner she was considering ending the relationship because they had different goals.
*leave the relationship
*seek couples counseling to talk through why things weren’t progressing and work together to decide if the relationship was workable
*seek IC to help her deal with the disappointment and assess her future

Stepping up your drinking and making all of the decisions and actions required to cheat do NOT constitute a reasonable and normal response to not getting one’s way, INCLUDING not getting a marriage proposal.

I just don’t get the responses that imply that this seems like what happened. Whether intended or not, this is blaming the victim.

OP, you did not in ANY way cause her to cheat, drink, or anything else for ANY reason, including not moving forward with marriage. That was totally her decision coming from an obvious place of brokenness. We all deal with frustrating and disappointing occurrences and don’t decide to begin a pattern of lying, hiding, and sneaking around on our partners—either to cheat or to drink.

This is not about disappointment or frustration or running out of patience, FFS. This is about unhealthy, dysfunctional, and/or nonexistent coping mechanisms among probably many other things, as we ALL know on these boards.

OP, I’m so sorry you’re here and dealing with the mindfuck that is infidelity. Take care of yourself as you travel this hard road, and as for these boards: you’ll get great support here. We always say, take what you need and leave the rest. We aren’t professionals. We’ve just all been through this and know how traumatic and painful it is.

Sending you hopes for strength and peace as you move forward out of infidelity.

If you read through my post you will see that I clearly stated that cheating is wrong and not a solution to anything and I really was not excusing it.

Merely pointing out that there are wider issues here to consider before OP makes any decisions, such as asking the question of where this relationship was going even putting the cheating aside as there seems to be several problems here including lack of commitment, substances and perhaps different visions of what the relationship should be.

I was expecting these responses though and I can see that my opinion wasn't welcome. I will refrain from posting in future.

[This message edited by JustSomeWoman at 10:48 AM, Sunday, January 4th]

JSW:

If you read through my post you will see that I clearly stated that cheating is wrong and not a solution to anything and I really was not excusing it.

For whatever it's worth, I didn't read your post as condoning the act and thought you made yourself quite clear of that. I even agree with the sentiment. If there are other issues in a relationship they should be addressed as well. I can't speak for others, but I'm guessing the couple of shorter, less nuanced posts that followed might be the ones that elicited that response.

I totally get what you were saying. While it is important to address all issues in relationships, infidelity is typically the most immediate and egregious wound when it comes to triage. I'd sure hate to see you go. I've read several of your posts, and while I'm a bit of a newb myself still, I think you offer some good insight and can be very helpful here. I hope you reconsider and stick around.

Goodness.

Should she have cheated? Of course not. That goes without saying.

But the Betrayed want to know "why."

I think I know why. Monkey-branching happens.

I’ve heard about saints. Never met one.

(And btw, doesn’t sound like he’s fully committed to her, either. But apparently it does need to be said: he shouldn’t cheat.)

Broken

I don’t know – any more than anyone else here – if she’s having a physical affair with this man or not.
What I stopped at was your comments about her relapses in drinking. I think there is a very high probability that THAT is where the issues are.

I have some experience in dealing with alcoholics and alcoholic families.
I doubt many illnesses are as misunderstood as alcoholism. It’s this weird reverse-allergy, where you are attracted to the substance that creates these mixed metabolic and psychological signals in you. It’s not the classic uncle who pisses himself at the family-party, nor the bum sleeping in a box on the sidewalk. The alcoholic can be your kids teacher, your boss, your brother or sister, the person that only drinks 1-2 a year, but each time ends up passed out in a ditch. The term "functional" alcoholic is basically a bomb with a timer. It’s a disease that if untreated has a near 100% fatality-rate – if from organ failure, falling down stairs or wrapping your car around a street-sign.

When she is drinking there is NOTHING that she prioritizes above her ability to drink. Her focus is on the next drink – not the next family dinner, not the next morning at work, not the next ANYTHING. It’s the next drink.
Of course people have various levels of accountability... Like a parent might be aware that they have to pick up little Joe at daycare at five, and they might try to stop the binge that started with that one drink at lunch so they are reasonably "sober" when they set off. Still... their need for drink will make them drive Joe while legally not capable of doing so...( I sometimes mention this example, because as a cop I guess I arrested close to a dozen parents for DUI with their kids in the car).

As-is your wife has a drinking companion in OM. I think that’s his main role. The snoring comment – that could be as "innocent" as him having passed out while on a binge. Or not... but honestly to me that is not the issue.

I am 100% certain that while she is drinking there is NO WAY you two can reconcile.
The only way that could happen – while she was still drinking – is if you provided a better path to her ongoing drinking than hanging out with fellow drunk and enabler. Like if he ran out of funds, or decided on sobriety and started AA... she would be back to you like metal filling to a magnet.

Seventeen years.... There is a whole international organization for families and others impacted by alcholics called Al Anon... Chances are your whole relationship with her is affected by her drinking. I strongly encourage you to look into Al Anon irrespective of what she does.

Your GF?

You can’t make her stop drinking. What you can do is refuse to be an enabler. What you can do is recognize that no matter what – whether she was 100% faithful sexually to you or went out and turned tricks with the whole local football team – her priority in life would be the NEXT DRINK.
What you can do is refuse to enable THAT.

Since you can’t force her to quit then all you can do is offer enforceable ultimatums allowing her to choose what path she wants. With luck – she will choose sobriety. But friend – with luck she won’t...
I say the later because within 2 years of ending this – chances are you will be fine.
The former – sobriety – is a long, long path. But can also be rewarding because she isn’t defined by her drinking. She can "return" as the true "her".

I would tell her that you aren’t happy that she’s spending so much time with OM and you see this as not being faithful to your relationship. However – you also realize this is important for her to continue her drinking. The drinking is the clincher – while she drinks, she isn’t the person you want because she’s being controlled by her drinking. If she wasn’t drinking she wouldn’t find a need to be around OM.
Tell her that you are moving on. There isn’t any rush. It takes time to detangle your lives, but you are not enabling her drinking any more, nor will you wait for her inevitable sinking deeper into drinking and eventual death from alcoholism.
If she wants the relationship she needs to decide to commit to sobriety. That might control your pace out of this relationship. Simply not drinking won’t do it for you, but if she were to start AA, appear sober, start a program with a sponsor and show you her 10 day badge, 50 day badge and 100 day badge... then and only then you might get some belief that sobriety might last this time.

Be aware that alcoholism isn’t treatable per se. It’s only manageable. That management is through sobriety, and to maintain sobriety people regularly go somewhere that holds them accountable. Like AA. If she manages her sobriety now, she will be going to daily meetings for probably the next 100 days, then 2-3 per week for a year or two, then 1 per week, then maybe every other week... This is ongoing, lifetime treatment.

Finally – Over the years on this site I think I have seen a pattern with many dealing with addicts. That’s where the addict/alcoholic will maintain a semi-affair in order to divert the marital issues from the addiction to the infidelity. Expect her to offer to stop drinking with him if you allow her to drink at home. Just keep in mind that is not going to last.

Hey guys, sorry I haven't updated anything in a while. I have been really going through it trying to get my head around, riding every peak and dip in that rollercoaster.

Thanks to all who have read and taken the time to reply, especially those who responded with compassion and understanding. Even those with constructive criticism are appreciated - but I just want to let you know that those of you who just questioned our relationship and whether I was truly "committed" (based on knowing nothing more than the length of our relationship and that we were not married) really sent me into a shame spiral while I was at my most vulnerable moment.

I love this girl with all my heart. We have been to hell and back together and we have both made each other very VERY happy over the years. Even while her drinking escalated and she started hanging out at bars without me she would constantly tell all her drinking buddies how great I am and how much she loved me. We were a lot of people's "Favorite couple" and she still has an awesome picture of us on her lock screen (that would serve as a conversation starter for her to gush about our relationship to others). It may not be some people's idea of what they think a "good" relationship should be, but even the thought of losing it is utterly tearing me apart.

Bigger: I particularly appreciated your reply. You really seem to be coming from a place of understanding about the disease of alcoholism and it's effects, and how that might be muddying the picture here. I do think this is mostly about having a new drinking buddy, and I actually really don't think that they have had any kind of a PA at this point for reasons I'll elaborate on in my update. The thing that concerned me, though, is just something about the manner of how they talk to each other. She's had many drinking buddies over the years, including male ones, but she's never sort of like hidden one like I feel she has here. Like I said, I don't think it's a PA at this point, but I do feel like there are some signs of an early EA developing, and that made me uncomfortable.

Also, I have heard of and been to al-anon, as well as engaged in several other groups and resources designed to help friends and family of addicts. It's really helped me understand what's actually going on with her, and made me feel less alone in this years long mind fuck of a struggle.

JustSomeWoman: I know weed isn't "better" - that's why I acknowledge that I'm a Marijuana addict and have been seeking help. If I didn't think that, I probably wouldn't mention it at all or just say "I'm a stoner bro" or something stupid like that. I'm not proud that I relapsed, but anyone familiar with the world of substance abuse treatment knows that relapse is part of the disease and very few people are able to get sober on their first try and there's there's usually a couple of relapses on the road to recovery. This isn't an excuse - it's just stating the facts of the situation.

As of right now my relapse is officially over, and I'm on my 3rd full day of sobriety (gotta start somewhere).

Now for the update:

She was out all night friday again without calling. The next day she called and said she passed out drunk at a friend's house and got her period. I was pretty distraught the whole night with all kinds of thoughts running through my head. She fell asleep and when she was asleep I started crying. She woke up and saw me and asked what's wrong - which kind of forced me to do my confrontation earlier than expected. I told her that I was really worried about her and about us and that my not knowing where she is and what she's doing all the time was causing me a lot of pain. I then told her that I knew she wasn't being honest about where she had been some nights. I asked her where she had been the night before, and she told me she was at her female friend's apartment. I asked if anyone else was there, and she said "oh yea, her boyfriend and *OM's Name*. I had known nothing about this guy and definitely not that he was roommates with one of her female friends (which I think is kind of good because it makes it less likely that they were actually hanging out alone). I then asked her if she had ever hung out with OM alone, to which she immediately replied "no, why would I?".

Obviously this made me distraught because I knew she was lying, but I just wasn't prepared in that moment to put all my cards out there and tell her what I found in her phone. She also sensed from the question what I was trying to ask her and seemed very surprised. She assured me that there was absolutely nothing happening and that she loves me and I'm the only one. I just told her I was sorry for even thinking something like that (I know, but I just couldn't bring myself to do anything else in the moment and I folded). I also told her that not knowing where she was and who she was with most of the time was causing me a lot of distress and putting all kinds of crazy thoughts in my mind. I told her how important it was to me for us to be fully honest and up front about everything, to which she promised that she would be.

She went back to sleep a little later so I checked her phone again. I was surprised to see she hadn't deleted any of the messages between her an OM despite having ample time to. And her last text to him was something mundane about eating a burrito (which she brought the other half of home for me). I still decided to screenshot the whole thread just in case she changed her mind.

The next day she goes out for a little while. When she got home she looked upset so I asked her what was wrong. She said that, out of honesty, she wanted to tell me that her and OM actually HAD hung out alone, but that it was only one time and it was when she ran into him onto the way to the train and he told her his uncle just died, so she wanted to hang out with him to cheer him up (fyi this is not at all out of character for her, especially since it gave her an excuse to go to a bar and get hammered). She then got really mad at me, and said "You know I would never do anything like that to you".

Later on I had another look at her texts, and there were a bunch of messages to her friends saying things like "omg my BF just accused me of cheating, can you believe it?", to which most of them replied with something like "omg wtf". There was also a fairly mundane text to OM talking about burritos they liked (which she actually gave me half of).

So my read here is that this is not a PA and is largely related to her drinking. So I can definitely see a world where this is no longer a problem when we address her drinking. I can't imagine her having a PA and not going to greater lengths to hide it. Part of the reason I trust her so much is that she is very against even the idea of cheating - this is because one of her parents was a cheater and it absolutely DESTROYED their family. I'm not saying this automatically means she would never cheat or something like that, but if she were, I would at least expect a little more cognitive dissonance from her, and definitely a lot of effort to cover it up. That and the texts with her friends make that my honest assessment. I could be wrong of course (anyone can be), but I think I'm pretty confident in this assumption.

HOWEVER...

Looking through her phone again today, I saw that she hadn't been in contact with him most of the week, but then today there were several text messages, I saw that they were facetiming on the phone for TWO AND A HALF HOURS today, including asking HIM if HE wanted to hang out (don't think they actually did) and he she texted him to let him "know she was home". I had trouble getting in contact with her all day today. She also didn't come straight home and stopped at a bar, and ignored a bunch of calls from me trying to figure out where she was (but she had time to assure OM that she was "home safe").

I really feel like there is a strong possibility of a budding EA here. She still isn't being fully honest about the extent of her contact with him, and there's a lot of just "weird shit" that doesn't feel like typical drinking buddy stuff. Her tone is very different, she seems to be being at least somewhat secretive about him, and she's choosing to interact with him OVER me.

I really don't know what to do with this. while there's info about EAs here, most of the "what to do about it" advice seems geared toward PAs. Is there anyone out there who might have an idea how I might proceed here? Again, I feel like I should do something, but I really have no idea what.

As previously stated I've ended my relapse and I'm now 4 days sober from weed. I've also rededicated myself to work, and I've been spending more time with her and talking about our future together. I know these might feel like "choose me" activities (see, I am reading!), but these are all things I had vowed to do before I found out about this and things I need to do for myself anyway. If anything I think I might be able to turn it into something more like "the 180" sometime down the line if she doesn't come around. I don't know if this is the best strategy, but it's the best I've got right now. Ironically, "the 180" method is surprisingly similar to the intervention I was already doing in the background for her drinking (which is called the CRAFT method if anyone care's to google it). Basically work on yourself and don't try to directly "control" their behavior, but set boundaries and allow natural consequences to happen (maybe that last part is a little different lol). And continue to assure them you still love them and will be there for them whenever they are ready to get help.

Again, I don't know if my plan is the best, but it's all I can think of right now. Any feedback or advice you guys might be willing to give would be GREATLY appreciated.