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It's normal for the coworker to not want to get involved in such a thing. You shouldn't be doing your research so openly. If they hear about it, the A may go underground further.

Can you somehow access the video record of the wedding? Maybe it can give you an idea of their proximity. But if they don't want to raise doubts about their relationship, they may not be too close at work and outside events. But somehow this coworker asked them what was going on. Well, did you ask him why he asked that?

It's interesting that he doesn't know about the events outside, soccer games and staying at Mark's place are okay, but aren't the drinks/dinner events with the coworkers? How could he not know about them? Even if he did not participate, he should have known about the events between coworkers. As I said befor "those working until late hours and happy hours with coworkers, may involve just one coworker."

Don't engage with her and do a hard 180. You have already experienced that you will not get the answer you expect by talking, nothing will change. Don't show any weakness or helplessness. Also, don't make emotional speeches that could mean pick me dance, like the one you exemplified above.

As has been said many times before, you don't need proof to divorce her, but if you're after proof to be convinced, try to get more concrete evidence and do it secretly.

Don't engage with her and do a hard 180. You have already experienced that you will not get the answer you expect by talking, nothing will change. Don't show any weakness or helplessness. Also, don't make emotional speeches that could mean pick me dance, like the one you exemplified above.

Been trying to do a "simplified" 180. Clearly I need to go harder.

Can you provide more insight on how I can better avoid the "emotional speeches" and "pick me dance"? I think I'm not certain what falls under "pick me dances" and that is causing me to falter a lot.

[This message edited by CheesecakeBaker at 4:35 PM, June 27th (Sunday)]

Can you provide more insight on how I can better avoid the "emotional speeches" and "pick me dance"? I think I'm not certain what falls under "pick me dances" and that is causing me to falter a lot.

Separate. Therapeutic separation. That’s the easiest way to implement the 180.

She’s given you the “I love you but I’m not in love with you” speech. That alone — absent an affair — is grounds for a separation. On what basis are you supposed to have a marriage with someone who isn’t “in love” with you?

It’s all bull shit anyway, but that speech is really everything, because it’s very rare for a wife to utter these words when she’s not involved with someone else.

Separate. Start the 180 from a position of not having to be around her. Move on. If she wants to prove her devotion, now it’s on her.

Be apathetic. Start living your own life and start moving toward freedom. It’s not on you to do the work here.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:53 PM, June 27th (Sunday)]

You either go your own way or stay where you are and have been. She doesn’t care about anything you have to say. Until you realize that talk gets you nothing you are going to keep yourself stuck.

Reflect back. What have your words gotten you?

A lot don’t want the truth and don’t put the effort in getting it. Like a VAR etc.

Hoping it’ll all just go away. Sorry man but you have yourself stuck.

CCB,

From what I can see from your response, you're still leaning on reconciliation, correct? But before you will be able to achieve that goal, you need to out them first. First, she didn't even acknowledge that there's an affair but clearly there is. You know it, the coworkers know it, and of course she and Mark knows about it.

You need to expose the affair first before you can start reconciliation. From what you're doing right now, it's hard to expose them because you're doing everything so open and before you even start to expose something, it's gone. Nobody will want to be involved in an affair, especially her coworkers, nobody wants to be involved in a messy situation. Clearly the coworker knows what's going on. He doesn't want to admit it. Maybe they're the ones encouraging the affair in the first place. Your wife must have outed you from their group. She must have said something negative about you that made them encourage her to have this affair. It happens all the time wherein the betrayed spouse the evil in the story.

If you really want to expose the affair, you need to hire a PI, that's your best bet right now. Because her coworkers are more leaning towards her than you do. They see each other everyday, they tell stories to each other, they go out together. When you're just somebody they know and they don't have attachments to.

Your wife will still continue the affair until you have proven it to her. She doesn't want to file a divorce because you're her safe place to go. Clearly, Mark doesn't want full commitment with her right now and your wife is the one pushing the affair. Since Mark is not fully committed, your wife can still monkey branch back safely to you if their relationship doesn't go full force. You are her safe bet.

If Mark is really into your wife, don't you think your wife should have already filed for divorce? She should have already. But Mark is just playing with your wife right now. He doesn't want full commitment, he just wants your wife's company, he just wants her for sex. She's a booty call for Mark without the full commitment. And you clearly notice it since you have first hand experience about what's happening. Your wife doesn't want sex with you, because she's having sex with the other guy. She doesn't kiss you, because she's kissing the other guy. She's not emotionally attached to you, she's emotionally attached to the other guy.

Thank about it.

I don't advise "confronting" her in this manner at this time. This is really just pleading with her again and then asking her to tell you if she is in love with Mark. I would not expect a different outcome than any of the times before. She'll lie and say there is nothing inappropriate going on with Mark and that you are being paranoid and you will be left feeling impotent and helpless. Also, if she knows you talked to coworker and you then come to her with your same "I have an uneasy feeling" questions, she'll know you got nothing from him. I think you are making a mistake thinking that if she hears your pleas and sees your pain she will be moved by compassion or pity to tell you what you need to know. Even if she is worried about what coworker may have told you, she is placing her bet on it was nothing or at least not so much that she cannot continue to play her game of denial. She sees your confusion and flailing as weakness and she will take advantage of that. The really hard reality is she is not moved at all by concern for you or your well being or welfare. At some time in the future, if she breaks and shows regret, she may say she is sorry for the pain she put you through etc., but that is unimportant bs and she does not give a rat's ass right now. I still think the first thing you should do is talk to the divorce lawyer. And do not say anything to her that tells her what you do or do not know or that you are confused or uncertain about what is going on. All that matters is this is intolerable and that you are not going to tolerate it.

Please, no more games. You don't need any more evidence to make your decision. I would confront, but I would tell her point-blank and mean it, that you will be seeing an attorney this week to commence divorce proceedings unless she gives you a damn good reason not to do it. Don't let her change the subject, demand an answer. A clear, concise answer. She won't give it to you. She might agree or she might feed you bullshit and try and make you the bad guy. You then do it. If she wakes up, the marriage might be saved. But what will you have? She won't even touch you. Again, your marriage is so short and you are so young. You have a great career. Don't put up with this crap any longer. You can get out without any long-term financial entanglements. To be blunt, you would be a fool to stay. But, if some miraculous change in her takes place before the divorce becomes final you might reconsider. I wouldn't, given my experience, but that is something you might kick around if that happens. The sooner you end this charade, the quicker you can begin to heal.

[This message edited by src9043 at 5:47 PM, June 27th (Sunday)]

Well I can see why the OP is getting confused here. There are 2 differing paths being suggested on this forum.

1. Some of the advice says that the next thing OP needs to do, is tell his wife that it is time to separate, that being told ILYBINILWY and her unwillingness to even hug OP is grounds for this:"Look, affair or no affair, you are clearly unhappy in this M. Even though I love you, I just cannot stay with someone who is not in love with me, and who is happier spending time with someone else. I am not going to force something that is not there, I have too much respect for both of us to do that. It is time for us to part ways."

2. The rest of the advice seems to be telling OP to expose the affair first.

FWIW, I think the OP needs to tell his wife that it is time to separate, first and foremost. Even if--especially if--his goal is to reconcile. What the OP has been doing--contorting himself into a pretzel trying to accept what should be unacceptable and trying to improve things by being Mr Nice Guy--NEVER works.

Proof of WW's affair, beyond what OP already has, is probably going to take much longer to come by. C'mon, they are attorneys. OP's WW is probably smart enough to keep any physical stuff behind closed doors. Meanwhile, the affair is really just the SYMPTOM of WW's selfishness, not the cause.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:31 PM, June 27th (Sunday)]

The fact is she will only change if SHE wants to change.

A D or threat of D will not stop the affair - but if she decides she pushed you too far she doesn’t want a D she sill stop the affair.

I hope you see the difference.

I am somewhat known here on SI for standing g up to my H at dday2 in a calm rational manner. It was not contentious. But he also had no power. I told him these 3 sentences : “I am D you. I have nothing left to give to you or this marriage. You are free to be with the OW or anyone else you choose”. And I left the room.

I gave him no voice, no opportunity and no power over me or kids. I was now in charge. I had $, mediator lined up, counselor and a plan. I had copies of every financial document including retirement plans. I changed the life insurance so I was the policy owner (and he could not change beneficiaries). I had a car in my own name.

And I told him where he was going when he left. He refused. I stood my ground that he had to leave.

Yes we did R. We are very happily R. But it worked b/c HE knew he had to make changes to keep this marriage alive. I offered no help or guidance. He was 100% on his own. And he proved he could be the H he was before his affair. It took 2 years of work on his part before I stopped thinking of D.

But it can happen. But only if the cheater makes the necessary changes. If the cheater just wants to rug sweep and avoid the issue — you have very little to work with in terms of R.

^^^^^^^ Extremely wise advise

Divorce should not be used as a manipulative tool. OP should not use it that way. The point is that he is left with no option but to end this charade. If the divorce or threat scares her straight, so be it. But she is still a shitty partner. He would do himself a favor, given the extremely short nature of the marriage, and his wife's total disregard for him, to move on. She is extremely immature, self-absorbed, and totally uncaring about her husband's emotional state. Again, she won't even physically touch him. GET RID OF HER. The OP doesn't see it, but he will one day. The sooner the better.

Can you provide more insight on how I can better avoid the "emotional speeches" and "pick me dance"? I think I'm not certain what falls under "pick me dances" and that is causing me to falter a lot.

I've been acting extremely cold and distant to her the last few days.

This is a good start. If you can do a hard 180, you haven't done the pick me dance anyway.

Normally, she should have been the one to put the effort into right now. Anything you do to make her love you is a pick me dance. And this is absolutely useless and unattractive to women. She is already alienated from you, it will cause her even more bored with you. Instead of facing the consequences of her infidelity, she knows that there is no risk of losing you and she can take you back whenever she wants. Then why would she stop doing what she's been doing?

She doesn't know your place in her life because she's never truly been without you, you were always there and the things you gave her were never lacking. If you really mean something to her, only your absence can make her realize it, if you're always chasing her, she won't.

You can avoid emotional speech by not speaking. But if you mean to be both talking and unemotional, you must first be a completely rational, objective person. Btw, by "emotional" I mean crying and begging etc. both verbally and behaviorally.

For example, I am an emotional person, but I am much more rational and objective. When explaining the reasons for my feelings towards someone, I always speak in a cause and effect relationship. While calling someone a cheater, a liar etc. I speak as if I were sharing an encyclopedic knowledge or a fact of life that everyone knows. Anger, resentment, sadness, etc. I don't show emotions. I make fun of stupid lies against me. I can cut people out of my life very quickly. I can do it for things that seem so trivial that sometimes they don't even realize what's going on. In fact, these are red flags that I cannot accept, and that could go much further if I let them continue. I am tolerant of mistakes, but I do not make the slightest concession to a behavior that is known to be wrong. People often test how far they can go, and when they fail, they always think they have a second chance. No, I don't give a second chance. In fact, I think that if there were more people like me, if cheaters were excluded from society, there would be less cheating in the world. For example, my aunt cheated on her husband and they divorced 3 years ago. Although we were on good terms before, I've cut all ties with her since I found out about this. No one in the family did this but me. She said she wasn't cheating and they chose to believe her.

Sorry, I've strayed a little off topic.

As a result, if you can't be as I described above (which I haven't seen many examples of), you can avoid "emotional speech" and "pick me dance" by not engaging with her.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 6:25 PM, June 27th (Sunday)]

If the guy you talked to is in the management side of things he will not take sides with you about it and will play dumb. He has legal and HR rules to follow. But I bet on Monday,he has an off the record meeting with other managers or his boss about the open secret of your WW and Mark. Most likely telling them "we don't really know if anything is going on with you two but drop it when you walk in the door.

If you need more evidence, Wedding photos...Damn there are probably tons of pictures and videos that your WW doesn't know about from the wedding all over social media,do you know their names? If you need more proof that she's dating him you will find it there. At most weddings people are always taking pics of the guests...

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 7:16 PM, June 27th (Sunday)]

You are on an infidelity site, which is understandable. Most folks here are here because infidelity caused a chain reaction. Yours is not as clear but what is clear is that this isn’t an optimal marriage for either of you. The advice above to confront her on those grounds is the right course. You don’t *know* that she is cheating, you *know* this marriage isn’t lasting with or without infidelity.

Keep is simple and address it on those grounds. If she is actually cheating then your radar is up and she WILL get caught. Cheaters are 1/10th as smart as they think that they are.

Everyone, we need to understand that OP is a lawyer and so is AP. So they both know the law.
What we should focus now is OP's emotional attachment to his wife. He's clearly still in love with his WW.
These are just my takes:
1. OP knows there's an ongoing affair while WW doesn't acknowledge there's an affair. She claims that they're just friends, that is partly true.
The reason may be what I have stated earlier that WW is clearly into Mark but Mark is not committed. Would you think that WW wouldn't have filed for a D already if they're not fully committed. I don't think so. Most AP's encourage the WW to leave the BS for them but clearly this one doesn't. So it is more likely that AP is in it for just sex, no commitment, just sex. Thus, WW doesn't want to D because she has no place to go if OP decides to D. I will bet that once OP decides to go for D, AP will get rid of WW. He's not in it for commitment, he's in it for the quick fix.
2. By experience, once ILYBINILWY was said, usually the WW would request for either separation or D. That's usually the case but this one is different, she wants to remain married. I am not 100% sure but it is highly likely that WW is in love with AP but AP is not committed to their relationship. AP is not the marrying kind, he's in it to enjoy the affair with no commitment.
3. Since OP is a lawyer, going through D route will be easy for him, he's got quick access to it if he decides to file.
4. Since AP is also a lawyer, clearly he knows what he's getting into. Thus, they are careful with their actions even it it's out in the open. Nobody says anything coz they don't let others see, they only show what is need to be shown which is just 'friends'. But whether you know the law or not, body language will show what is the real deal. Which OP can clearly see too. The two lovers know what they're doing. They have an idea that there might VARs installed, AP might have access to WW's data so they know how to act accordingly. You won't see anything from texts or social media because they are careful, they know the law.
This is just my take. I might be wrong but I'm just basing what from what I can see.

[This message edited by beb252 at 2:25 AM, Monday, June 28th]

Well I can see why the OP is getting confused here. There are 2 differing paths being suggested on this forum.

1. Some of the advice says that the next thing OP needs to do, is tell his wife that it is time to separate, that being told ILYBINILWY and her unwillingness to even hug OP is grounds for this:"Look, affair or no affair, you are clearly unhappy in this M. Even though I love you, I just cannot stay with someone who is not in love with me, and who is happier spending time with someone else. I am not going to force something that is not there, I have too much respect for both of us to do that. It is time for us to part ways."

2. The rest of the advice seems to be telling OP to expose the affair first.

FWIW, I think the OP needs to tell his wife that it is time to separate, first and foremost. Even if--especially if--his goal is to reconcile. What the OP has been doing--contorting himself into a pretzel trying to accept what should be unacceptable and trying to improve things by being Mr Nice Guy--NEVER works.

Proof of WW's affair, beyond what OP already has, is probably going to take much longer to come by. C'mon, they are attorneys. OP's WW is probably smart enough to keep any physical stuff behind closed doors. Meanwhile, the affair is really just the SYMPTOM of WW's selfishness, not the cause.

Thank you for saying all this. I needed to see it kinda laid out like that today.

CheesecakeBaker at this point just file for divorce. If a miracle happens then you don't have to go through with it. Or ask her to move out. You need to cause some action IMO.

Everyone, we need to understand that OP is a lawyer and so is AP. So they both know the law.

What we should focus now is OP's emotional attachment to his wife. he's clearly still in love with his WW.

You're spot on. That's one of the hardest things for me - the emotional attachment. I still love her, and it's so hard to let go of those feelings and accept that this is broken.

2. By experience, once ILYBINILWY was said, usually the WW would request for either separation or D. That's usually the case but this one is different, she wants to remain married. I am not 100% sure but it is highly likely that WW is in love with AP but AP is not committed to their relationship. AP is not the marrying kind, he's in it to enjoy the affair with no commitment.

Also true. At the end of the day, I don't want to be married to someone who isn't in love with me and is happier OUTSIDE of our marriage. Someone who is constantly saying she needs space and feels smothered by me, but then turns around and spends so much time with another dude and texts him all the time. How is that not smothering?

What another commenter said is what I feel:

"Look, affair or no affair, you are clearly unhappy in this M. Even though I love you, I just cannot stay with someone who is not in love with me, and who is happier spending time with someone else. I am not going to force something that is not there, I have too much respect for both of us to do that. It is time for us to part ways."

I just need to build up the courage to say this. I feel like any time we have had any sort of conversation longer than a three minute "pleasantry" / "small-talk" / "how was your day" bullshit has been because of me saying, "Look we need to talk" and then that turns into me trying to discuss stuff with her, my wife deflecting or dismissing me, and then getting mad at me for being impatient or not even responding at all. It never goes anywhere. And I just end up feeling like a villain because every interaction we have that's longer than 5 minutes is negative.

As for lawyers knowing the law, he may or may not know divorce law. It ain't rocket science, but if you don't know it, you don't know it. And if you don't practice divorce law, you probably don't know it all that well. I do PE and transactional stuff. I had to go to a divorce lawyer for understanding of what would happen in divorce. Understanding of what is and how things will unfold brings clarity and makes decisions and course of action easier and better. He should probably know what his and her rights and obligations are, what he wants as an outcome, and the range of likely and possible outcomes before he says anything to her about divorce.

[This message edited by Rufus at 8:18 PM, June 27th (Sunday)]