"You can survive this. Talk to others that have"

bewuzzled posted 9/16/2020 03:48 AM

9/8. That's the day he proved everyone right, unfortunately. Everyone that told me he was going to do something with the GF. I swore he wouldn't, that he couldn't. Well, he did. He had our Ex GF over at his apartment on 9/7. They got drunk. The other friend that was there, left. There they were... Alone, drunk and horny. All these months he's been swearing she's just his friend. All the conversations where he made me feel bad becuase I called it an EA, and he said I was wrong. I wasn't wrong, I was right. They didn't have sex. He says he had the presence of mind to know that would be wrong. But they did cross a line. They are not just friends.
To his credit, he came home the next day and told me everything. He could've hidden it, I'd have never known. But he's good, at his core and he came and told me of his own free will. He let me ask questions and he stayed and had some tears with me. All good things.
I've been preparing myself for months for this, as much as one can be prepared. Still sucks.
So we are proceeding with seperation. I asked him to not talk to her for now, to get shit right in his own head. Then maybe we can both decide if we want R or D. Good plan, right? He agreed.
Oops. Texted her back the next 2 days, blamed it on me (I text her and told her what I think of her) and told me he didn't know it was strict NC, cause I didn't say that. Wayward nonsense, no? Says she's not his AP, this was not a "full blown affair". Wayward fog?? What exactly is she then!? Dare anyone to call her his friend now.
The other blow comes in the conversation following the second day of broken NC, when he tells me he didn't "want to be an asshole" to her. LOL! So.... You don't mind being one to me? They both betrayed me two days ago and we have to worry about HER feelings!? What world is this.
When he moved out, we sat down and wrote a seperation agreement, which said the marriage would be honored by both of us for one month, when we would meet to discuss things. He now says.. " well, we WERE seperated" um, yes. To work on ourselves with an understanding there would be no relationships outside. For one fucking month! He was only a few days short.

nekonamida posted 9/16/2020 12:54 PM

BW, gently, why are you waiting on him to come crawling back to you? He is in an active A with her. He won't give her up. Actions speak louder than words and his ACTIONS say that he's choosing her over you but keeping you on the back burner in case things don't work out. You don't have to wait for him to make the final call or to string you along for more time to date her and choose. You can move forward solo and stop if he comes to you wanting R AFTER she's out of the picture.

ChamomileTea posted 9/16/2020 13:51 PM

He could've hidden it, I'd have never known. But he's good, at his core and he came and told me of his own free will. He let me ask questions and he stayed and had some tears with me. All good things.

This is just a continuation of his twisted ethics. In his mind, it's not cheating if you know about it. But did he call you BEFORE he decided to get drunk and hang out? Did he call you BEFORE whatever messing around he engaged in? No. Because he KNEW you'd object. Running to you the very next day to absolve himself doesn't mean that he wasn't CHEATING or that he's a "good" guy. He made CHOICES behind your back that he knew you would not approve if you were told beforehand.

I think your history of putting him on a pedestal while you worship from below is still a problem. He's still not admitting that his relationship with the AP is utterly inappropriate. He's still defending HER sensibilities over yours. And despite his crocodile tears, he's made no overtures to come home. Instead, he's given you the SAME excuses and broken NC we'd see from any other active WS. I agree with Nekonamida... his ACTIONS are telling you that he's choosing her over you. What did he accomplish with that one month of separation? Did he get ANY relationship work done? He's still not even admitting that it was about the AP, that you took his toy away and he got mad. Did he spend any time contemplating what that third party's influence was doing to his marriage and how it's fallen apart? No. He wants MORE separation, most likely so you can't see what he's up to on the daily.

You are a very generous and understanding person. Don't let him use that against you. His ACTIONS are telling you who he is. Neconamida is right... you don't have to wait around in the perpetual limbo of separation. You can hand him his walking papers and move on to a better life where people treat you with real respect. It's too bad he can't appreciate what he's losing, but that's HIS problem, not yours.

((hugs))

bewuzzled posted 9/16/2020 14:50 PM

why are you waiting on him to come crawling back to you?

This question occurred to me this morning. Cause it's what I do, it's what I've always done. For the last ten years, I've been the wayward. The bad one, the one that can't live without him. I realize now I can, hell.. I have been. But there is that last piece of emotion that keeps me coming back for more. When I'm in his presence, all my strength and resolve tends to fall apart and leave me.

I thought to myself today. I don't Want to be with someone who has to work so hard to want be with me. Isn't that bottom line, for me? I think it is.

I think your history of putting him on a pedestal while you worship from below is still a problem.

Yep, true.

What did he accomplish with that one month of separation? Did he get ANY relationship work done? He's still not even admitting that it was about the AP, that you took his toy away and he got mad.

So this is exactly it too. I need to ask him just this, while I tell him I stand by my choice for D, and why. I will no longer tolerate the BS that surrounds this whole situation. I think I'm finally done enough to voice it. I just have to Think of my why's. Cause he can talk circles around me and sound 100% logical and right, at the time. I think he's been doing that to me for ten years.

Thanks everyone, needed perspective as always.

hikingout posted 9/16/2020 14:57 PM

Did he spend any time contemplating what that third party's influence was doing to his marriage and how it's fallen apart? No. He wants MORE separation, most likely so you can't see what he's up to on the daily.

I agree. I also think that he is stringing you along in case it doesn't work out.

I know it seems counterintuitive, but I also agree you should just tell him it's over and that you are getting a divorce. As long as he is allowed to stay on the fence he will. Be prepared for him to take you up on that offer though. It can't be an idle threat. As I see it at this point though, you have nothing to lose in walking a hard line.

I think your previous WS status keeps you staying still because you do not want to make him feel abandoned again. You feel like he gave you time to get yourself together and that you should do the same. I get it. But, I am assuming he did that under the circumstances you were completely transparent and NC with the AP. I feel like he told you in order to seem transparent and to minimize the idea that NC was broken.

And he is using your past affair as his entitlement to what he is choosing now. This is a recipe for long term limbo and fence sitting and potentially creating more trauma for you. Walk a hard line, he will either wake up or he will not. Letting him fence sit will never bring any clarity and you will only suffer as a result.

You can tell him that you will not share your marriage with another woman any longer, that his actions have shown you that his loyalties lie with her. That you did not want the action of divorce, but you see no way around it under the current conditions. And mean it. You bet your bottom dollar if you had moved out, and broke NC with the AP that's what he would have done so stop comparing the two situations.

hikingout posted 9/16/2020 14:58 PM

We cross posted. You sound stronger and have more resolve. Good.

bewuzzled posted 9/16/2020 15:21 PM

You feel like he gave you time to get yourself together and that you should do the same. I get it. But, I am assuming he did that under the circumstances you were completely transparent and NC with the AP

Yes I was, I would never have thought of answering a text from AP. I was already terrified of losing him. And I brought that up to him. He said situations are different. I said they're not. He said I didn't actually say strict NC, that I said don't talk / communicate with her, which is true. I think texting back is communicating, he doesn't. He also doesn't want her called his AP, says this wasnt a full blown affair. I disagree. But he can't tell me what she actually is, if not an AP. She's the OW, is she not?

hikingout posted 9/16/2020 15:27 PM

She absolutely is.

I would not quibble with him about it. I would just not let him fence sit at your expense any longer. As I said, he is stringing you along because he wants to evaluate what he has with her. It's wayward 101. If she had never been in the picture you all would not be separated, I do not believe.

But, I also believe you wouldn't have been in this situation if you didn't allow it. And he might not have asked for it if you hadn't cheated to begin with. I believe that is likely due to guilt and possibly not completing your work. Boundaries. You are not crazy in this situation. He might have given you a chance and some time, but you did as he asked.

sisoon posted 9/16/2020 17:08 PM

There's nothing vague about the 'no' in 'no contact.' Any way you parse it, there is no difference between the meaning of 'no contact' and 'strict no contact.'

You're a madhatter, right? That means you have to heal as a WS - you've done a lot of that - and as a BS. The BS part may be strange after 10 years as a WS, but it's still something you need to do. It really is OK to say to yourself that you'll go this far in accommodating your H, but no farther.

As a WS, you need to wait for your BS to offer R. As a BS, you get to choose between R & D, and it's OK to choose D, even if your H, as a BS, offered R.

When your head, heart, and gut all want to take the same path, they've probably picked the right path. If head, heart, and gut haven't aligned yet, you're probably not ready to take action - but you write like you know where you want to go.

BraveSirRobin posted 9/16/2020 19:32 PM

I was your H after D-Day 1. I originally asked for, and received, permission to date OM. It was supposed to stay casual. Instead, we got deeply involved, emotionally and sexually. I ended the A and came clean to my BH, but I refused to go NC. I felt responsible for OM, because I had made the first move and made him want a future with me that I couldn't give. I promised both him and myself that I would never toss him away like garbage, that we would always be friends.

So if your H were here, I would be speaking from experience when I tell him that he has to choose, and immediately, where his loyalties and future lie. If he wants to stay married to you, then she's dead to him. No meets, no calls, no texts, no social media, no updates through mutual friends. Permanently. If her parents die, he does not send a card. If she dies, he does not attend the funeral. Complete, total, absolute no contact, with no exceptions. Final.

He may resist this. He'll argue that their relationship started out legit and that she has a right to be treated respectfully by him. If that didn't end before now, it ended the night that they decided to get drunk and cross the line. I absolved OM of responsibility in crossing boundaries that he knew as well as I did not to cross. I refused to admit that I was addicted to the ego kibble, and I tried to make it seem like staying in contact with OM was some kind of virtue. It's bullshit. If he drops by SI, I'll tell him so myself. There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about the crossroads at which he finds himself now.

My H deeply regrets having agreed to my dating OM in the first place. He regrets, just as much, not insisting on total NC after D-Day. It gave him PTSD. I hate that I selfishly prolonged his agony in trying to avoid doing something that could not be avoided. Did it make OM hate me? I don't think so, but I'll never know. If it did, that's just what had to happen. I haven't had contact with OM for 30 years. It can be done, and it's what your H needs to do.

bewuzzled posted 9/16/2020 19:38 PM

he is stringing you along because he wants to evaluate what he has with her. It's wayward 101. If she had never been in the picture you all would not be separated, I do not believe

Yea, and I've accepted him thinking about which of us it's gonna be. Why am I doing that? Is that enlightment I am having? Lol
No, I don't think we'd be seperated either, if not for her.

But, I also believe you wouldn't have been in this situation if you didn't allow it. And he might not have asked for it if you hadn't cheated to begin with. I believe that is likely due to guilt and possibly not completing your work. Boundaries. You are not crazy in this situation. He might have given you a chance and some time, but you did as he asked.

100% correct

When your head, heart, and gut all want to take the same path, they've probably picked the right path. If head, heart, and gut haven't aligned yet, you're probably not ready to take action - but you write like you know where you want to go.

I've been struggling with this. My head knowing, but my heart holding out. I feel like everything is aligning l.. Maybe? Finally?

bewuzzled posted 9/16/2020 19:46 PM

I promised both him and myself that I would never toss him away like garbage, that we would always be friends.

Omg, I think this is exactly what happened for him. Like spot on.

he has to choose, and immediately, where his loyalties and future lie

So... If he has no intent or desire to do this, is that my answer? He needs time to think what he wants? Ok.. So we were seperated when this happened, so he already declared he didn't know if he wanted to stay. ( but he broke the honor the marriage agreement).
Now this happens, did I do myself wrong by allowing more time? At the time I agreed to it, I didn't know he'd communicate with her over the following two days, which is what made me blow up and choose D Last thursday.

BraveSirRobin posted 9/16/2020 20:22 PM

So... If he has no intent or desire to do this, is that my answer? He needs time to think what he wants?

You remove yourself as an option. It's possible that he chooses her, I'm afraid. In his mind, she's a fresh start, someone who never betrayed him. On the other hand, he has a much longer and deeper history with you, and he probably won't be able to let that go. Suddenly, you'll take on the betrayed and abandoned role, the woman he broke promises to. He'll feel guilty about that, and she'll feel insecure. Instead of being the sad victim he's taking care of, she's now the OW who has to suck it up while he processes his feelings for you.

This is as straightforward as any BS situation, despite your history. He can have her, but not as your husband. If he won't decide, you decide for him. If he comes back saying that he's made a big mistake, you can decide then whether to trust him and give him another chance. Allowing him to mull this over gives him no incentive to end things definitively, and he's just going to pine for her and act like you're forcing him to be the bad guy.

thatbpguy posted 9/16/2020 20:40 PM

He's hedging his bets. He'll ride the horse that will put up with him. For now.

He's truly a sick and twisted man who needs to be shown the door.

I am sorry for you. Sorry that you're hanging on to a lie. I hope you make a clean break.

hikingout posted 9/17/2020 08:03 AM

So... If he has no intent or desire to do this, is that my answer? He needs time to think what he wants?

As long as he is free to do that he will, and that will prolong it and the confusion.

Your husband is in the "fog" stage. I don't like that word, but WS to WS you probably know best what I mean. He has to be faced with reality - and that is he is not in control of the outcome of this. As long as he is in the drivers seat he will be comfortable, and that means he will keep her as an option.

You may lose him in the process but if you do, all you are doing now is delaying the inevitable. Stand your ground. If you want him to respect you, you must show yourself respect. It may not make him respect you, but the path you are on there will be no chance of it.

bewuzzled posted 9/17/2020 13:28 PM

Your husband is in the "fog" stage. I don't like that word, but WS to WS you probably know best what I mean

I just said this myself. I believe that's right. He can't/won't see it for what it is.

He has to be faced with reality - and that is he is not in control of the outcome of this

Agreed. I have made the mistake of believing and in saying to him that it's all up to him. That I want to R no matter what. Turns out, that's not the case. Given recent events and conversations, that's no longer true. I'm taking back my self respect and I'm demanding my own say in what's happening here. Took me long enough, but I'm ready to now. And I feel good about it.

hikingout posted 9/17/2020 13:41 PM

Excellent. I know you haven't been here in a while so I don't know if anyone reminded you about the 180, but it's still there in the resource library. Time to 180.

BluerThanBlue posted 9/17/2020 16:17 PM

If I can play Devil’s Advocate for a moment...

You and your husband sound like what the polyamorous community refers to as unicorn hunters. If you’re not familiar with what that means, I recommend looking it up. In brief, it means that you invited another person into your relationship with the expectation that it would always be on YOUR terms and that your coupledom would be supreme.

The only time that type of arrangement works out as planned is if the “third” is an escort or a relative stranger in a casual swinging scenario.

But once you invite someone as a participant in your relationship, you need to accept the reality that emotions are going to evolve outside of your control. The only successful “triads” (and they are RARE) are when the members treated each individual relationship as separate as opposed to “us” and “her.”

As for your current situation, I don’t think it was reasonable to expect your husband to go no contact with her after you were separated when he couldn’t even do that while you we’re together.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:19 PM, September 17th (Thursday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 9/17/2020 20:57 PM

But once you invite someone as a participant in your relationship, you need to accept the reality that emotions are going to evolve outside of your control.

I think the OP has said as much herself -- that forming the triad was an ill-advised decision, and she was inappropriately complacent in assuming that if anyone got hurt, it would be the unicorn. But all she can do now is look forward. The agreement among all three of them was that the marriage was privileged, and she's unwilling to renegotiate that. She's asserting her boundary of refusing to share him going forward. I think she's as aware as anyone that she can't control whether he stays or leaves, but she doesn't have to agree to continued nonmonogamy.

bewuzzled posted 9/17/2020 23:35 PM

If I can play Devil’s Advocate for a moment

.

Please do. I invite all perspectives.

In brief, it means that you invited another person into your relationship with the expectation that it would always be on YOUR terms and that your coupledom would be supreme.

100% spot on, at least for me. I've read a bit about unicorn hunting. While we didn't go looking for it on purpose, alot of it fits.

But once you invite someone as a participant in your relationship, you need to accept the reality that emotions are going to evolve outside of your control. The only successful “triads” (and they are RARE) are when the members treated each individual relationship as separate as opposed to “us” and “her.”

Yep, lesson learned. Emotions don't follow my rules, boundaries or plans. When things started to change for me, regarding her... They didn't for him. Made me the bad guy, the selfish, crazy wife who could never be happy, who always had some issues, some problem, some feelings that had to be tended to. There she was... the compliant, generous, innocent GF...never wanted to hurt anyone, never wanted to come between us. Only that's right where she was.

I don’t think it was reasonable to expect your husband to go no contact with her after you were separated when he couldn’t even do that while you we’re together.

Never expected him to do NC, until he admitted he crossed a line with her. For 6 months I've cried to him becuase I knew she wasn't just a friend. I knew what she wanted, and I knew how he felt. For 6 months he's told me I'm a hypocrite, that I'm wrong, that I only care about me.. Among others, when he knew or should have known she wasn't just a friend.
I have only ever expected NC, following thier betrayl and his agreement to do so.