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I just don't know

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Buster123 posted 8/9/2020 15:50 PM

When I do finally have the conversation I won't say I'm willing to R although it'll be implied from the ultimatum. If she refuses or if its something I can't deal with then I will definitely leave. I've already got an exit plan sorted so I'm ready whenever I get the courage to do it.

R does NOT have to be implied in the ultimatum at all, what it should imply is the possibility to R but that you will still consider all options including D.

OTOH are you sure you're ready and/or will have the "courage" to leave her and follow through with it if she refuses to tell you the truth ? by your own admission you still don't have the "courage" to confront her and ask the tough questions.

BTW just sit her down and fire away, just tell her you know she's cheating on you, she will initially deny and deny, just tell her you know and have a lot more details than what she thinks you know and that this is her last chance to come completely clean for you to just CONSIDER giving her the gift of R, otherwise if she lies it means D, and that her answers will be subject to a polygraph. Do not forget to tell her you will be recording the entire conversation with your cellphone. After convo, demand she gives you a complete timeline of the A (again subject to a polygraph), don't forget to demand she gets tested for STDs (you should too).
Do not expose to OBS until after you confront her, OBS may confront POSOM immediately and the very next thing he will do is alert your WW to get their stories straight and give your WW plenty of time to come up with the "best" response.

Newlifeisgreat posted 8/9/2020 15:51 PM

Before you confront, take care of the financials!!!!!

Go to the bank and open a new account in your name only!!! Then withdraw 50% of the saving for house money and put it in the new account. That way, when you confront she can’t give you a sob story to placate you for the evening, then wipe out the bank accounts. If she does that, since you are not married, you are out of luck and not getting anymore that money

Prepare yourself for the worse!!

And ask yourself why do you want to be with someone that would cheat on you????

Do you think you will EVER trust her??? Every time she is 5-10 minutes late, you’re going to be wondering if she is in that back seat Of some other guy!!!! And every time you are “with her”, and she has her eyes close, you are going to wonder if her smile is because of you or her remembering him!

And she certainly doesn’t respect you! How could she respect you and be giving herself to another man!!!

And you need to really think if she truly loves you. Could someone that loves someone really have an affair and cause you such pain?????

Good luck and stay strong!
You deserve someone who will love and respect you! NOT someone that will cheat on you!! And if she is willing to cheat on you now, how will she be after you’ve been married for 5, 10, 15 years????

Good luck!!
You can and will get through this!!!

ExistingInLimbo posted 8/10/2020 04:42 AM

Okokok

There is one other big option for you here: you could expose this to the AP's pregnant girlfriend. I bet we could help you come up with a really good way to do that that could really help you (and her).

I have been toying with this idea for a while. Apparently she is a very argumentative person and would instantly confront him about it. It might kill the affair but I would never get my answers. It sucks really as her perspective on what has been going on might give me what I need.

I'm struggling to get the confidence to actually confront but I know that once I start the conversation I will be able to continue and go ahead with it all.

I have no idea if I'd ever be able to trust her again. It all depends on how it all goes down.

Okokok posted 8/10/2020 08:36 AM

Do not expose to OBS until after you confront her, OBS may confront POSOM immediately and the very next thing he will do is alert your WW to get their stories straight and give your WW plenty of time to come up with the "best" response.

There may be some validity to this advice depending on the specifics of the situation, but more often I've seen the opposite: BS confronts WS first, and then before the BS gets a chance to confront OBS, the AP has already done damage control, found a way to keep BS from contacting OBS, warning the OBS of the "crazy" BS, etc.

I think the very best plan is to run through the specifics of the scenario here and get targeted advice before you do *anything*.

Apparently she is a very argumentative person and would instantly confront him about it.

Who told you this? Your wife?

BS always hear one or more of the following about OBS:

-- they're abusive. If they find out, they'll hurt AP or WS or maybe even BS. So dangerous!

-- they're mentally unstable. No telling what could happen if they find out!

-- they're suicidal. If you tell them about the A, you could be responsible for their early death. You animal! ]

-- (insert other negative characterization here)

I'd just be suspicious of anything your wife has told you about OBS.

~

It might kill the affair but I would never get my answers. It sucks really as her perspective on what has been going on might give me what I need.

I'm struggling to get the confidence to actually confront but I know that once I start the conversation I will be able to continue and go ahead with it all.

If you read enough threads around here about this subject, you'll find that the following pattern emerges:

1) BS is scared for any number of reasons to confront the OBS. They're too ashamed, they think OBS might be crazy, they think it will "push WS into the arms of AP," they "don't want to be responsible for ruining another marriage," etc.

2) The posters here try to explain alllllll the reasons why it's the best thing to do. It's incredibly difficult for a new BS to see or trust this.

3) Eventually, after living in hell for a long time, the BS finally exposes the A to the OBS.

4) Inevitably, with exceedingly rare exceptions, the BS comes back here and says "OMG, you guys were SO RIGHT! I wish I had done this sooner!"

There are many reasons that exposure to OBS is generally the very best thing to do, and we can discuss that here. One thing that often happens is that the OBS gives a ton of info to the BS (there are active threads here right now where that is the case) that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten.

I'm interested to know more about your thoughts regarding the pros and cons of talking to this woman.

~

It sucks really as her perspective on what has been going on might give me what I need.

So, what is it that you think you need?

You've mentioned many red flags and several inappropriate messages. You do theoretically have enough to go on here. However, I *fully* understand how difficult it could be to proceed without serious hard evidence that you can point to if for no other reason than to prove to yourself (or others) that you're not crazy.

Do you have the means to hire a PI? Does she have any other "late shifts" coming up that you could find a way to check in on?

Please keep posting.

ExistingInLimbo posted 8/10/2020 09:40 AM

I'll explain the specifics of the OBS from what I know.

Two years ago when I found the flirty messages and when AP was being accused of sexual harassment she was pregnant with his child. He also has another child with a previous partner. After whatever was happening had gone underground at some point AP and OBS split up. I've been told that it was because they were constantly arguing and it was a toxic environment. At some point between then and me seeing the new messages they got back together but it wasn't official on Facebook and they weren't telling anyone... Apart from my WS of course. They are now Facebook official and she is pregnant again. The pregnancy still hasn't been announced but guess who told me about it!!

I was told by her yes. Two years ago she told me OBS would kill him if he cheated on her and the explanation for them splitting up is why I think she's so argumentative.

I really want to contact the OBS but I just don't have any actual proof to show her. It's fairly obvious that at least an EA has happened from what I've seen but I don't have screenshots of the conversations. Plus she's pregnant so I wouldn't want to put stress onto her without any actual evidence.

If she had any hard evidence or could find some then I could show people if I'm made to look like I'm crazy or jealous. But also despite all the evidence from my gut and her behaviour the hard proof would give me the kick I need to actually sort the situation and stop wallowing in this state.

I haven't got the means to hire a PI and from my VAR I've discovered that she does come almost straight home from work with the random stop on the way to sit and scroll through her phone. They have the perfect place at work to fool around because it's just the two of them there in a locked store and the staff room has no cameras or windows for them to get caught.

Okokok posted 8/10/2020 10:44 AM

I really want to contact the OBS but I just don't have any actual proof to show her.

There is always the high likelihood that this OBS is living in a set of circumstances similar to yours and that maybe *she* has just the evidence you're looking for.

I wonder: is it possible for you to somehow reach out to her, tell her what you've seen, and talk openly and honestly with her about working together to see what you may be able to discover together before she confronts AP? Have a frank conversation with her about this situation, keeping quiet for just a bit, etc.?

I realize that this may not work out, but then again, I don't know if you know her at all, have ever spoken to her, have any sort of relationship with her, etc.

Doesn't it seem like she must know *something* is going on? Especially if there was a breakup back when the affair was first going on?

~

Are you able to check and save phone records to at least have evidence of multiple texts and calls?

Again, I recognize that you're in a tough spot. Better evidence would make this easier.

I do know one thing: this hell that you're currently living in, and this horrible feeling you have inside...these things will not go away. At some point, whether it's today, next week, or a year from now, you're going to have to do something, or this will just continue.

Bigger suggested you just confront her. Another option is to go to OBS. A third option is to keep investigating for a while. A fourth option is to do what I outlined in my first post.

The fifth and most horrible of all options is to keep doing what you're doing.

I'm not sure I see a 6th option.

Bigger posted 8/10/2020 11:07 AM

If this is an EA then there is the very high risk that she does not see this as an affair.
I therefore strongly suggest you don’t use the word “affair” when you confront her.

The term “emotional affair” was only coined and recognized sometimes in the 1980’s. You can even now find MC’s that don’t acknowledge they exist. A “traditional” affair has a very clear border where the WS crosses a line. The moment you kiss, grope, or have sex you KNOW you have crossed a line. That line might be even earlier for us BS, but for the WS there is a line that is crossed where they can’t even deny for themselves that what they are doing is infidelity.
For example – if OM constantly gropes her ass and she doesn’t either try to avoid it or reprimands him for it then she could still insist it’s not an affair, although YOU the BS would definitely see her implied acceptance as infidelity.

IF this is still limited to your fiancé spending time with OM, texting OM and being “best friends” with OM then MAYBE she hasn’t crossed any border in her mind. When you start asking about affairs… she won’t understand the issue. I once again suggest you look at the book Not Just Friends. It’s the combination Bible, Talmud, and Koran of defining emotional affairs and has some assignments the two of you can do to that might lighten up her mind.

Consider this approach. Instead of asking if she’s having an affair then sit her down and tell her you are concerned about her relationship with this man. See what she says and respond accordingly. It’s just an innocent friendship…
OK so she would be fine with you seeing their correspondence. Invasion of privacy… Yes, but if you two intend to be life-partners there needs to be a deep trust that goes both ways. Right now, you need assurance, and the correspondence can give that assurance.
Expect her to throw the “you don’t trust me therefore there is no hope for us” card at you. Counter it with “if you trusted me you would share this info.”
Ask where they meet, how they meet, what they do.
Ask about the sexual harassment instances. What’s that about?

LISTEN to her. Don’t counter or dispute. For now you want her story.

Ask her if she is willing to go through Not Just Friends with you.

Remind her that the only thing keeping her in this relationship is her free will. If she wants out or thinks the OM offers greener pastures, then that’s OK. It’s not what you want but nor do you want to impede her happiness. Since you two aren’t married, no kids and so on it boils down to who takes what if you separate. You can stress its not what you want, but you would prefer that to learning she’s having an affair.

Contact his GF. Tell her the truth. Not that they are having an affair (because in all truth you don’t know that for certain) but that YOU are concerned about their relationship.

Delaying won’t do anything positive IMHO.


BTW – her unemployment 5 years ago is IMHO an excuse for staying at her parent’s house and/or not moving your relationship forward.

Westway posted 8/10/2020 13:08 PM

I would reconcile with her but the fact that she keeps lying to me about everything makes it seem like that is an impossibility at this point.

This blew my mind. Why on earth would you ever consider actually marrying a person who has proven she cannot be trusted? Why would you commit your love, finances, health and offspring to such a person?

ExistingInLimbo posted 8/11/2020 03:59 AM

@Okokok

She may have the evidence I need but I'm very wary about asking her as I have no idea what type of person she is. She may refuse to help or fly into a rage and confront him instantly. Also as they broke up for a while if anything happened during that time he wouldn't have been cheating on her. Since they got back together I haven't noticed any messaging so either they've gone underground or its over.

Their primary form of communication is WhatsApp and they are Snapchat friends so possibly there too. So no chance of anything on the phone records.

The hell I'm going through is too much to bear so I need to get out of it soon. Right now the only two options I'm considering are confrontation or contacting the OBS. Investigating is getting me nowhere as she covers her tracks even when there's nothing to cover up.


@Bigger

I get where you're coming from but she definitely knows she's crossed the line and has done since they started talking to each other. If she didn't think it was an EA she wouldn't hide the screen from me or delete the messages. She has another male friend that she is much closer to and they are constantly messaging but she never hides anything about him from me so I have no problems with that relationship.

She deletes the conversations, deletes dashcam footage, deletes Internet history, deletes all emails. All things she never used to do before starting talking with him. Plus the instant they became friends was the instant all of this started so it's not like its a gradually increasing friendship that eventually goes too far.

Bigger posted 8/11/2020 04:12 AM

This is an infidelity help-site.
We offer advice on how to get out of infidelity.
We have already suggested a couple of ways, ranging from getting your finances and other issues lined up before confronting, getting more evidence before confronting, or just confronting right away – now – with what you have.
Never do I see anyone here suggesting you remain in limbo and don’t do anything other than worry…

I don’t look too much into the married/not married aspect. I get that you have time invested in this relationship. To me it’s more that a) doesn’t sound like there are any assets (what with living with her parents and being broke) and b) there are no kids. These two aspects make the TECHNICAL side of separating easier IF she is having an affair and IF she insists on staying in an affair. What the confrontation does is clarify that key-issue.

And Existing – If there is no clear sex then there is still a possibility she does not think of this as an “affair”. We have seen GF and W that claim they never had sex with the OM but only received or gave oral or partook in mutual masturbation or phone-sex… as if that’s not “sex”. There is nothing logical about having an affair so don’t expect logical thinking.

Okokok posted 8/11/2020 07:57 AM

She deletes the conversations, deletes dashcam footage, deletes Internet history, deletes all emails. All things she never used to do before starting talking with him. Plus the instant they became friends was the instant all of this started so it's not like its a gradually increasing friendship that eventually goes too far.

Sometimes as a new BS it can be really difficult to not only see the absolute absurdity of our situations (of course I know you see it), but also to see how bad it really is.

Many of us flounder for weeks and months at first with these things you describe happening all around us.

Remember: in a normal and healthy and honest relationship, deleted texts/emails/browser history are not a thing. Slightly tilted-away phones, phones set screen down, phone passwords changed, phones never left unattended or unlocked...these are not things that happen.

In a normal, healthy relationship, not only are phones casually left lying about and often lost somewhere in the house ("Honey, have you seen my phone??"), but partners generally know each other's passcodes and have full access to everything there ("Honey, can you send so-and-so a text saying we'll be there at eight? I can't, I'm driving.")

That's normal.

This means that when you finally do have your confrontation (and I hope you have it today, honestly), you can and should give yourself a little pep talk reminding yourself that you can be 100% certain that something inappropriate is happening here.

I KNOW how crazy-making it is to not know exactly *what* the hell is happening. Sucks that you can't get that. I'm sorry.

But you absolutely have all the evidence you need to confront and, as Bigger has advised, do something like this:

Consider this approach. Instead of asking if she’s having an affair then sit her down and tell her you are concerned about her relationship with this man. See what she says and respond accordingly. It’s just an innocent friendship…
OK so she would be fine with you seeing their correspondence. Invasion of privacy… Yes, but if you two intend to be life-partners there needs to be a deep trust that goes both ways. Right now, you need assurance, and the correspondence can give that assurance.
Expect her to throw the “you don’t trust me therefore there is no hope for us” card at you. Counter it with “if you trusted me you would share this info.”
Ask where they meet, how they meet, what they do.
Ask about the sexual harassment instances. What’s that about?

LISTEN to her. Don’t counter or dispute. For now you want her story.

Ask her if she is willing to go through Not Just Friends with you.

Remind her that the only thing keeping her in this relationship is her free will. If she wants out or thinks the OM offers greener pastures, then that’s OK. It’s not what you want but nor do you want to impede her happiness. Since you two aren’t married, no kids and so on it boils down to who takes what if you separate. You can stress its not what you want, but you would prefer that to learning she’s having an affair.

Again, as I mentioned, you really do have to plan for the fact that she's going to tell you that they're "just friends," you're crazy/jealous/etc., and that there is nothing going on. Go in expecting that. Still, ask those basic questions that Bigger suggests, make those statements, absorb everything she does and says.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe she'll break down in tears and tell you absolutely everything, beg for forgiveness, and swear to her favorite deity that it will never happen again. Doubt it, but it's possible.

My better guess is that, once you confront her and you've had whatever conversation you're going to have, she'll suddenly have a long walk to take, or a long bath with a locked bathroom door, or need to run to the store, or to work...you get the idea.

Watch her, listen to her, take it all in.

But beyond that--and this is important--you can and should already have a plan in place for what you're going to do after these things take place.

You can make that plan here with us if you like.

Sorry you're here and I know it's shitty and sort of scary, but after rereading your posts, I can see that you do have some basic plans forming. I personally think you have everything you need to confront today.

Bigger posted 8/11/2020 10:09 AM

I’m one of the fortunate ones. I didn’t suspect a thing and innocently walked into my apartment with the intent of being quiet and not wake her up – only to see my then-fiance having sex with another man. “Fortunate” is a relative word. I was fortunate just like a soldier might be fortunate an arm was blown off cleanly rather than shattered and hanging in tatters.
The “less fortunate” BS here on SI tend to suspect something is going on and experience a prolonged phase of doubt, questions and fear, followed by a trickle-confession, trickle-truth and relapses and returns to the affair.
I was fortunate to get the truth literally directly to my face. I dealt with the doubt, discovery and confrontation in about 10 seconds. Granted I dealt with the consequences for years afterwards, but at least I didn’t dwell long on those initial phases. Yay! Lucky me!

What you describe sounds AT LEAST like an emotional affair. There definitely could be a physical aspect to it, but we don’t know. What experience tells us is that a man like your OM (in and out of relationship with his pregnant GF, accusations of sexual harassent etc) won’t settle for EA for long. The deeper your GF is hooked the more likely it will move into PA simply to keep the EA going.
Maybe it’s already reached that stage. Maybe not. No need for us to speculate too much on that. It is what it is, and part of a possible recovery/reconciliation is for you to know the truth.

What can happen if you prolong confrontation is that if it hasn’t reached that stage it will reach that stage.

The confrontation will neither be nice nor easy, but it get’s you one step into the correct direction.

ExistingInLimbo posted 8/11/2020 17:22 PM

I didn't have a chance of talking to her properly today and we worked opposite shift. Tomorrow is 4 weeks since we had a long conversation about everything and I know that she lied to me at the start of that conversation (because she said the 6 x's was an accident. He sent her 6 and she replied with 6 then the next message also got 6 in reply then a week later she sent 6 then instantly deleted the conversation) so I can't trust anything she said that day.

We've had so many conversations about it and I've always got lies and gaslighting in response. I'm going to use the fact that it's been 4 weeks (a whole pack of antidepressants) to talk with her about it and confront her for the final time. If she refuses to come clean I'll leave because I'm sick of feeling like this.

Sorry you had to go through that Bigger.

Outoflove2020 posted 8/11/2020 20:15 PM

I would second what Okokok said re telling OBS:

If you read enough threads around here about this subject, you'll find that the following pattern emerges:

1) BS is scared for any number of reasons to confront the OBS. They're too ashamed, they think OBS might be crazy, they think it will "push WS into the arms of AP," they "don't want to be responsible for ruining another marriage," etc.

2) The posters here try to explain alllllll the reasons why it's the best thing to do. It's incredibly difficult for a new BS to see or trust this.

3) Eventually, after living in hell for a long time, the BS finally exposes the A to the OBS.

4) Inevitably, with exceedingly rare exceptions, the BS comes back here and says "OMG, you guys were SO RIGHT! I wish I had done this sooner!"

Read through my post on this very topic. The title of it is right there, "Telling the partner of the AP". You can see me moving through those exact same steps that Okokok has outlined above. I am FIRMLY in the camp that it needs to be done, and the sooner the better. I wish I'd done it right after DDay. As it is, even though I ended up walking away from my xWBF, I can move forward with my life knowing I did the right thing. That I gave this man agency over his own life which his wife (my xWBF's AP) had taken away from him, just like my xWBF had taken away mine. You can take comfort in that by telling the OBS, you are living your life with integrity, unlike your WS.

In my situation, I didn't have any physical evidence either, but my xWBF had been very talkative about the relationship - once I found out about it, he had verbal diarrhea. It was like he was making up for hiding it by telling me everything I wanted to know. So don't let that put you off. When I reached out to the OBS, I did it via text, and was up front that all the info I had was from my xWBF. We texted for a few days, I could see him going through the initial discovery shock with the questions he asked, I told him he could reach out to me anytime and then I stepped away. I have no idea what happened. I do highly suspect that my xWBF knows I told her husband, but have no idea what impact it has had either on his relationship with her or her relationship with her husband. Not my monkey anymore. I am completely NC with my xWBF.

I delayed doing it as I was worried about her husband being abusive, coming after my xWBF etc but it turns out, he was just like me. A person who didn't deserve to have this happen to him.

[This message edited by Outoflove2020 at 8:18 PM, August 11th, 2020 (Tuesday)]

Okokok posted 8/11/2020 21:21 PM

I'm going to use the fact that it's been 4 weeks (a whole pack of antidepressants) to talk with her about it and confront her for the final time. If she refuses to come clean I'll leave because I'm sick of feeling like this.

Sounds like a good plan so far.

If everything could go perfectly, what would that look like? What are you hoping to get from her?

ExistingInLimbo posted 8/13/2020 06:28 AM

@outoflove2020 thanks I'll read through your thread for info on how it'll go down.

Just a small update. Got a covid scare so can't leave the house for a while. So obviously my plans are on hold :(

ExistingInLimbo posted 8/25/2020 19:06 PM

So I've tried talking to her multiple times over the past week or so yet every time the subject comes up she manages to derail the conversation and change the subject. Even going so far as to run the bathroom to "puke".

I'm getting nowhere with her so I'm going to contact the OBP and see if she knows anything about what has been going on. But I don't know what to say to her. It'll have to be a fb message as that's the only method I have to contact her. Anyone got any tips on how much detail to put into the message, if I should ask her for secrecy etc. It just such a hard thing to write as I have no actual proof short of the behavioural changes and the few messages I've seen.

Stevesn posted 8/25/2020 21:27 PM

Honestly, I would simply say to my fiancée,

“I know you are having an improper relationship and I will not be runner up to another man in my relationship.

Either we discuss this and develop a plan to fix this or I will be asking you for that ring back and leaving.

I only want to be married to someone who prIoritizes me over all others and I’d that is not the case here I need to know so I can begin healing on my own and work to move on”.

That’s it. If she responds and starts talking, great, we’ll help you take it from there. If she says youre crazy or something like that, i would find a place to go stay for a while and I’d she doesn’t try to follow, let her know your no longer interested in a relationship with someone who is being so secretive about another man.

Honestly that should not be the life you want. Being engaged should be all about each other. It’s not right now.

There is no person in my life that I wouldn’t drop if my relationship with them made my wife feel uncomfortable in any way. That’s how spouses should treat each other.

She is not respecting you or the relationship right now.

Good luck.

Dismayed2012 posted 8/26/2020 13:54 PM

Call the 'engagement' off and get your ring back. She's giving you a glimpse of your future and it's not pretty. Take your life back from this woman. Thinking that she's the only one for you or that there are no other women out there is wrong. This is your opportunity to avoid more wasted years with that woman. Never allow anyone to disrespect you and never allow anyone to negatively affect your life. You are the prize, not her. Choose happiness for yourself. Don't waste any more time. Get her out of your life now. I wish the best for you.

Lalagirl posted 8/26/2020 14:17 PM

Even going so far as to run the bathroom to "puke".

Yeah, trying to purge her belly that is full of horseshit.

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