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Honesty and Promises

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Zugzwang posted 11/8/2019 09:36 AM

I was lonely and craved the attention that I got from him. So in my head, if I wanted to keep him talking to me and giving me the attention that I craved, then I needed to give him the sex that he said he was lacking.

Have you told your husband this? Get blunt. Tell him what you were willing to do to fill yourself. What you were willing to trade.


Then I would work on the excuse and justification about cheating because you were lonely. That blameshifts onto him. No one should make you happy. Make yourself happy in a healthy way. Stop craving attention to feel good about yourself.

Zugzwang posted 11/8/2019 09:41 AM

"If you truly love someone, being faithful is easy." He followed it up by saying "That says it all. And your actions speak loud and clear."

Get honest and tell him the truth. That he is right. Thing is you didn't love him. You couldn't. You didn't even love yourself. If you hold to the opinion that you loved him, you remain unsafe. You cheated and hurt him. That isn't love. You may have valued him still and object loved him based on value and what he could feed you. No one is going to trust someone that can't trust themselves to be honest about love. Validate him. Admit and own this. You didn't love him and your actions speak it.

Jorge posted 11/8/2019 09:59 AM

He's applying logic to the illogical world of emotions and affairs, but that's how it is and will be, so I'm not sure there's much you can do about him thinking you're lying.

WW have been telling men on SI for years about the emotional side of things and many guys still can't wrap there heads (me included) around how a wife can keep going back to something of which they don't enjoy or is no better than the husband) however these are all consequences of lying previously unfortunately.

Sex possibly or even assuming it being better with the AP is what many men fear the most, and what's probably driving his massive pain, in addition to disbelieving you for obvious reasons. Again, these are the all born from over a year of deceit.

I think an earlier poster suggested exploring a polygraph examiner and seeing if such a question (superior sexual enjoyment) can be included in a real examination to clear the air.

NotSureAboutIt posted 11/8/2019 10:44 AM

WS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:47 PM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 11/8/2019 10:53 AM

So then I go back at him saying "but you told me that I'm doing good! You just told me last night that you appreciated 'blank'". When I feel like I am losing him, I feel the need to fight. To show him that I want him. Apparently he just needs me to take it.
Subtle difference: he needs you to validate it. When you argue back, citing times he's felt positive about you, the message is that he isn't feeling how he "should" feel if he were thinking rationally. In point of fact, it's perfectly rational for him to feel angry, desperate, frightened, exhausted -- in short, done. So it's your job to acknowledge that and say that he has every right to those feelings, and that all you can do is work for change and hope to earn another chance. You can't argue him out of his emotions and should not try.

Fighting him is different than fighting for him. The only thing you shouldn't give him is an excuse to quit. Don't file yourself, don't get discouraged and fall into wayward behavior, don't lie. If he really needs to end it, let him do it for himself.

Zugzwang posted 11/8/2019 12:35 PM

When I feel like I am losing him, I feel the need to fight.

Like a dog with the bone. Only interested when it might be take away. Fight all the time. Not when you feel like the toy on the shelf might be taken from you. Back to object value with this statement. You must get out of taking him for granted mode.

Regretitall posted 11/13/2019 11:08 AM

Sorry for the delay in responding. Our daughter was home sick on Friday and Monday and weekends are always busy.

He came home from work for a bit on Friday and we talked an awful lot. He told me that he just needs me to hear him and listen when he's in the angry phase. He gives me plenty of credit for being aware of possible triggers for him and trying to avoid them. He says I do very well with helping him when he's sad. Outside of not handling his anger right, and of course having an affair, he says I'm doing everything right for helping him. We had a really good weekend. HE had a really good weekend. Yesterday we were messaging back and forth and he was asking questions again. Questions that we've gone over many times in the past 16 months. He said he asks again now because I said I'd not lie so he wants to ask again. We had a long talk and at the end he thanked me for answering everything and helping him muddle through. We talked for a few hours after work about possibly switching our leased vehicle for another one. We always talk about things in the future. Last night he decided to reread the messages that we had sent in the afternoon and got pissed off. Decided that I had lied about something that I have said since day one of being caught. I didn't. He won't believe me. So now we're into a whole new day of him calling me a liar and saying he wants to be done.

I'm not getting upset this time while he's being mean to me. Saying things like "Go back to him. You know you want to." "Go back to him so that I can leave you." "Go back to him and make my choice for me." "Go back to being a whore again like you always were." He says that he believes nothing that I say cuz I don't even know what the truth is. And when I apologize, I'm told to shove my sorry up my ass. He says he's done and can't keep doing this. But when he's not having an angry day, he tells me how much he loves me. That he doesn't want a life without me. To fight for him. To not let him quit. Our relationship has been better than ever on the good days. He'll say the same. We've totally reconnected and are putting our marriage and each other first again.

So what can I do on these days? Where he doesn't want to hear what I have to say or won't believe it? But if I don't answer the messages, he accuses me of being with someone else, so I have to answer. Or when he says that we need to figure out how to break up and with the least amount of financial damage and damage to the kids?

NotSureAboutIt posted 11/13/2019 11:38 AM

WS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:47 PM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

Regretitall posted 11/13/2019 12:01 PM

NotSure, I have no problem answering the questions over and over again. I have committed to giving him the 100% and I have been. Problem lies in him thinking that how I explained something yesterday is not the same as how I explained it many other times, so I must have "slipped up" and told the truth now. So now it's back to me being a liar and lying about the entire thing. But I'm not. It's how he's reading it and won't believe a thing I say.

MrCleanSlate posted 11/13/2019 12:18 PM

Regretitall,

You're in a tough spot because your BH is wounded and riding the crests and valleys of emotions.

I remember after D-Day if I got a text from my BW I would pull over if I was driving and answer right away. My BW didn't want a written timeline. But she pieced together what she wanted/needed to know from my texts, e-mails and verbal talks with her. My BW knew I was crappy with dates and fine details and so she excused some minor inconsistencies. That being said, she did circle around to topics days, weeks or even months later. One other thing I started to do was to communicate more openly with my BW. I'd let her know about the crappy client, or the a-hole in traffic. I started to share everything. It felt good for me, but it also helped my BW know i was trying. Man, just telling her my feelings was a momentous occasion. I was really bad at that before.

Have you tried writing out a detailed timeline?

In some ways it sounds like you BH needs to get some IC for himself. It will help him deal his emotions. Maybe you can start by going to IC yourself. Be sure to share what you talked about. I even invited my BW to sit in on IC, and later it morphed into MC.

Regretitall posted 11/13/2019 12:34 PM

MrCleanSlate, it's just so hard. We are so, so good and then so bad. He just said yesterday, after talking about all of this again, that he thinks we have a 75% chance of coming out of this okay, and that he wants that. Last night he reread what we talked about and decided that I was confessing to knowing it would be an affair from day one, instead of the progression over a couple of weeks that I have always said. The way I worded it, I can see how he took it that way, but in explaining it to him he keeps saying that I'm back peddling and he doesn't believe me. He said that he was willing to get past the affair but he's sick and tired of being lied to. Worst part? I wasn't lying.

He absolutely refuses IC or MC. Now he's talking about ending it again and figuring out the best way to get out of this unscathed. I asked to at least wait until after Christmas for our little kids. I just hope that he'll change his mind again.

hikingout posted 11/13/2019 12:51 PM

So now it's back to me being a liar and lying about the entire thing. But I'm not. It's how he's reading it and won't believe a thing I say.


What is happening is 100% normal. He has a vulnerability hangover. When H and I would have a really good few days, he would lash out or become very distant. And, it boils down to a couple of things. One, being vulnerable with the person who hurt you is very hard. So, after a period of closeness they still need room to process their grief and pain so they will withdraw. Secondly, sometimes they don't like the feeling they are sending a mixed message. If they go too long being close and nice, then we may mistake that for things being better or them getting over it. They need for us to know they are not at all over it. They even get mad at themselves for getting close to us again, and then they get mad at themselves with how they are acting during the flare up.

It's miserable for them. Just remind yourself he doesn't want to be acting this way, he doesn't want to be in this pain. Just ride that roller coaster with them, being consistent through that roller coaster is an instrumental part of earning some trust back. It's going to be this way for many months to come, but as someone else already said it will get better for longer periods gradually if you stay consistent and keep working on yourself.

There are of course no guarantees, all WS live under that uncertainty that the BS may call it at any time - but we must remember that we are the ones who brought that uncertainty to the situation. That's the consequence of our actions. H and I are a little over two years out, and things are really good. He considers us R'd. I will still not rest on my laurels or feel like there isn't going to be a turn up ahead. It's because I'm like you in that I really want our marriage to work moving forward. If I didn't care, I would just say "Okay then, he's good, I am good and that's it". It will not be that simple again for many years to come. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy our time together or I am not appreciative, I am just saying as you move through this you will find that even without the roller coaster - once that portion is done - it's best to try and get comfortable with the new insecurity you will have in the relationship. You can recognize it, but you always must see it's you that is accountable for it, not him.


Keep going, it sounds like you are doing the best you can.

MrCleanSlate posted 11/13/2019 12:51 PM

He said that he was willing to get past the affair but he's sick and tired of being lied to.

Wow, right there is the whole thing.

I remember my BW in tears telling me she loves me and wants to work on fixing our marriage, but she doesn't know if she can do it after knowing what she does about he A. That was a moment for me. I knew I had to work on myself and my marriage.

It was a night a few days after that where I sat my BW down with a nice bottle of wine and I talked a lot. Not details about the A, I talked about the things I did wrong before the A, the whys of my A, my desire to always want to fix things with my BW, but being too chickenshit to actually start the conversation, even went back 20 years to admit denial of our special needs son's disability in the early days.

I just laid myself bare. I cried, she cried, it was the start of R for us. I think if I had not done that we would probably have slipped into S and D.

I give you credit for taking your BH's mood swings and wanting to work on things. Now dig a bit deeper and find a way to really open up to him.

MrCleanSlate posted 11/13/2019 14:11 PM

Regretitall,

BTW, I need to give you a big heartfelt word of thanks.

Your posts and my last reply here really brought a flood of emotions to me. I feel I need to go and give my BW a big hug.

I can't repeat this enough - lay it all out there, everything. Your emotions, hopes, fears, all of it.

If you really want R, fight for your BH like you never have before. Give him that one reason to want to stay. Yes it will be hard.

Regretitall posted 11/15/2019 11:47 AM

Hikingout; vulnerability hangover! Never came across that before. It makes perfect sense. In our hard day the other day, I told him about that and he said it could well be what he's doing. I am on this rollercoaster and I am trying to be consistent in my actions. It's hard knowing that he may want to quit at any point. It's even harder knowing that it's because of what I did. Did your H ever tell you that he wanted to be done? That he couldn't do it anymore? That he wanted to split up? How did you handle it? What did you say?

MrCleanSlate, we have had really in depth and deep conversations. On both sides. He's told me stuff that I never knew. He's learned to express his thoughts and emotions instead of keeping them bottled up. I've told him my whys that I have discovered so far. Some big ones. Some painful ones. It's hard to know that he said on here one day "I love her more than I ever have", but then sometimes is so willing to want to walk away. I know it's not easy for him, at all. Staying or walking. We are so much closer than we have been in years; perhaps ever. So it's terrifying to know that I still may end up losing him. Especially over my fucking stupidity. And you're welcome!

Are there any betrayed men who have R who speak to newly betrayed men who are struggling? Is that such a thing? I'd like to have someone reach out to my husband so he has someone to talk to. Whether he'll talk a whole lot or not, I don't know, but I hope so. He refuses counseling, as said before. He will not share with his friends what I did because he says he doesn't want them to hate me. I've told him to tell one or more of them because he needs to talk to someone. He said before that he might be willing to talk to someone on here, so I'm hoping he will. He needs to talk. I think it would be even better if he not only talked, but talked to someone who has been in the same situation as him and came out the other side, still married. Is that possible? Are there any betrayed husbands who would do that?

Thanks so much, again, for the support, hikingout and MrCleanSlate. It's more appreciated than you will ever know.

hikingout posted 11/15/2019 12:50 PM

Hikingout; vulnerability hangover! Never came across that before. It makes perfect sense. In our hard day the other day, I told him about that and he said it could well be what he's doing. I am on this rollercoaster and I am trying to be consistent in my actions. It's hard knowing that he may want to quit at any point. It's even harder knowing that it's because of what I did. Did your H ever tell you that he wanted to be done? That he couldn't do it anymore? That he wanted to split up? How did you handle it? What did you say?

Yes, often, especially in the first several months.

I would tell him I understood why he felt that way, I would apologize very specifically for whatever was causing the issue and tell him I knew that I didn't deserve another chance. I would reassure him that no matter how angry he was that I was here and that I loved him. And, sometimes he didn't want to hear that.


And, somewhere in the middle of month 9 he calmly told me we were going to need to divorce. He wanted us to go in home separation until we could sell the house. I helped him move the furniture, I acknowledged that it was me who broke our beautiful marriage. I respected his space. Eventually we had a very heartfelt conversation where I laid myself bare and told him all that I was feeling since the separation and that I would make whatever decision he needed to make easy for him, but that I truly didn't want the divorce. I wanted him, I wanted us. And, he decided at some point in the following couple weeks he was willing to give it more time. We had begun drawing up divorce papers.


It's a long winding road, it's likely to get worse before it gets better (if it gets better). H considers us R, but I will know for years to come that the other shoe could drop. That is just part of the consequence of our actions. After all, we took all the security and trust and broke it at once. You have to look at the fact that he's not trying to take all the security at once, but that the lack of security of the relationship was all placed there by us. I know you get that on a logical level, but you will begin to understand it from a heart level and accept it at some later point.

MrCleanSlate posted 11/15/2019 14:19 PM

Regretitall,

Your BH could join here and post, or he could go to IC, or even seek out a local group counselling session (something like AA). Problem is that if he isn't ready or willing then he may not take anything from it. Not sure where you live but you could also try Salvation Army. They do counselling and all sorts of support.

Maybe the best thing is to pull together a list of help resources and leave a copy on the table one day (you'll be best judge to know if tat will help or hinder).

Meanwhile, if you haven't already, get yourself into some IC. you could always invite your BH along after a few sessions to observe and to hear what you are talking about. Could be a good way to get him to join in.

Regretitall posted 11/16/2019 19:05 PM

He is a member here. He found this place and it helped him an awful lot. He's posted a few of his own posts and commented on others. He referred me to here, and I am glad he did.

Some days are so, so good with us. Reminds me of when we were first together, how connected we were then and are now. We lost that for a number of years. He has said on here that he loves me more now than he ever has. But he's also said on here that he thinks it's done. That cheating was always a deal breaker for him. So sometimes it seems that no matter how hard I work on myself, or us, it's still going to end in splitting up.

Seeing the complete pain on his face breaks my heart. I can't believe that I was so stupid to do this to him. I can't believe that I was such a selfish bitch to put my needs ahead of the needs of him and our kids. I can't believe that I was able to throw away my values of almost 40 years at that point, that cheating was wrong. I've found some of, or perhaps all of my whys, but I still can't believe that I let it happen. I still can't believe that I hurt this completely amazing man that I have. He's literally given me everything that I ever wanted in my life, and I was so stupid to allow some piece of shit to talk nicely to me and tell me what I wanted to hear. Yes, my husband and I had disconnected some. We were having problems. But he was in this marriage too and he would never do this. He said to me the other day, that yes, he was an asshole many times, and yes, I should have left him a hundred times. He said he deserved to be left, but not to be cheated on. I was so stupid as to convince myself that I could stay in my marriage and keep my family together and have a separate relationship on the side. What was I thinking????

He'll say that he doesn't want to break up. He'll say that he loves me and wants this to work. And then he'll say that he'll never be able to accept what I did. That cheating was always a deal breaker for him, so why should he, at almost 45 years old, put his morals to the side and stay with me?

My father adored my husband. He passed just over 5 years ago, from cancer. He told me before he passed that he was at peace to go and knew that I'd be okay and my kids would be okay. That we'd be taken care of. He was at peace to let go cuz he knew that I had finally found my "person". My happy ending. My father is probably screaming away at me right now. No doubt he's disappointed in my actions. My husband didn't have much of a dad growing up. He told me recently that he spends a lot of time "talking" to my dad. My dad would absolutely fight for us to stay together; I hope my husband talking to him might still work that way.

We've reconnected so much and it's just so scary to think that one day I'll wake up and it will be done. And it will be over 100% because of me. I hurt my husband. I hurt our kids.

Sorry for my ramblings. I'm having a rough night tonight. Thanks again for your help.

Regretitall posted 11/20/2019 14:07 PM

So I'm back again. Unfortunately I have no one in real life to talk to about this. A couple people know that I cheated and know that we're trying to fix it. No one knows how hard this has been. I don't know who to talk to about it. Probably no one. So I talk here.

BH quit today. He told me that he's the only one on the rollercoaster and he resents the fuck out of me for putting him on it. He said that he needs to find himself again. We're going to do an in-house separation. We're going to essentially be rooommates and play nice in front of the kids. He has no idea how long he wants this to go on for.

I've agreed to it. My heart is literally broken. Perhaps now I am feeling some of the pain that I gave to him. I don't know. I hope that he will find a way to be happy again. That he will find his worth and his value again (he told me that he lost it). More than anything, I hope he'll find his way back to me. I'm losing my best friend.

I wish more than anything that I had never broken this sweet, amazing man.

Lifeitself posted 11/20/2019 19:29 PM

Hi regretitall,

Sorry to hear that. Did something happen today triggering his decision?

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