SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For those interested in my previous thread:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=634350&HL=69209

Not interested in a crass ranting. Just legitimately interested in the SI population's take.

Wife and I are in our late 50's. She's been through menopause, hot flashes, and the like. She's said that she has no libido, but can do it and even like it when I'm 'considerate.' She's been 'dry' and required lubricating oil for the last 8 years, or so.

After a full year of 180, my detachment, etc., she finally comes asking for conversation re: us. Our Saturday morning chats have been going on for about a month. I've projected a no nonsense persona while remaining very reasoned and rational. I no longer entertain any form of TT'g, blameshifting, and other diversionary tactics while maintaining a non-confrontational appearance. We sleep in separate bedrooms.

This morning I went to her room and woke her to some easy caressing and hugging. Used my hands alot. After about 15 min's, my fingers come away soaking wet. What is that about.

Look I'm taking a mercenary, analytical approach to the questions that cross my mind. One of my assertions has been that its me that she has no libido for. Should we split and she dates a man that tickles her fancy, I submit her lack of libido miraculously dissipates. This morning, because of my 'approach,' I'm inclined to think it validates my speculations.

What say you folks? Ladies? Care to chime in?

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 9:06 AM, January 12th (Saturday)]

This morning, because of my 'approach,' I'm inclined to think it validates my speculations.

If I'm reading you correctly, you are asserting that her lack of libido is aimed specifically at you and that the evidence that she didn't need extra lubrication this morning validates that? That sounds contradictory to me, so could I assume that the bigger picture included not progressing to more intimacy than the caressing/snuggling this morning and, therefore, it appears that she is fully able, but lacking desire?

Even without clarification from you, my experience has been that the impact of infidelity can be extensive and that can easily make its way into the bedroom. Your wife could have underlying shame and guilt that contributes to her overall dynamic. Your own perspective of not being desired by her could have its own implications for how you do/don't approach intimacy and even how you view yourself. Those are all "coulds" though and only you and your wife are able to do the digging and communication to uncover exactly what is going on. Based on where it sounds like your relationship has been recently, it seems like it really isn't at a point where that level of openness is there and, therefore, you are left guessing and making assumptions. Do you think you in a position where some MC, therapy or even a radically honest conversation could move things forward?

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 9:41 AM, January 12th (Saturday)]

I'm a little confused by your post? It sounds like you used a lot of foreplay, your wife who has issues with lubrication was very wet, and you think that because of this she has issues with being attracted to you? Please correct me if I'm summing it up incorrectly.

Maybe she just needs a lot of foreplay to get in the mood? 15 minutes of foreplay doesn't sound that crazy to me.

Menopause can cause all sort of changes with a woman's libido and arousal ability. Lots of foreplay is good if that's what she needs.

You mentioned her requiring "lubricating oil" for the past 8 years. I hope you were using that term in a very general sense. Oil is not what is needed as a sexual lubricant. Find a good water-soluble lubricant, found in drugstores and grocery stores where they sell condoms. You can also find it online.

I think you are over thinking this. I am in no way defending a WS, but at least THIS woman’s body is not always predictable and it has nothing to do with my emotions or desire for my partner. That being said, if I suspected my husband judged my “production” of fluids as an indicator for my desire or feelings for him I suspect I would not only turn away, but also lose any ability to be open and vulnerable with him.

Hmmm.....

Have you two gone to a counselor that specializes in intimacy issues?

In addition to our bodies changing, our minds also change. If your previous sex life was "do A, then B, then insert tab into slot C", it might not be doing it for her anymore and in her mind you might be running the risk of being a "lousy and boring lover."

Look....after menopause we become different women and what we used to put up with, we don't want/need to anymore. Talk to her. Be willing to be vulnerable with her. Find a professional who can help you two become a better couple than you were.

k9

NTMIW -

I'm not sure what kind of input you want. You say you feel that her having no libido is really just no libido for you right in the same paragraph where you tell us of an event that proves the opposite.

That said, we still know next to nothing about your history with your wife's infidelity. Maybe if we did, we could offer more help.

NTMIW, your questions are difficult to respond to because you provide almost no information, back story, or context, and thus they are quite abstract. We don't even know if you are interested in pursuing R or D, we don't know anything about the nature, scope, or duration of her betrayal, etc.

I would suggest that if your goal is some version of R that includes re-establishing sexual relationship with your WW, it would be counter-productive to give her a lot of foreplay that produces some lubrication and then use that information in an accusatory, "gotcha" manner to "prove" to her that the prior dryness and lack of lubrication was a manifestation of a specific lack of desire for you.

NotTheManIWas,

Heads up to anyone else - this has some information that you might feel is too much for you to read. Just a caution.

I am 58, a female, and a BS. The dynamics of my situation are a bit different in that I was the spouse cheated on and my husband had an EA with his old HS girlfriend. Yeah, that HS love stuff seems to stick around for a long time. Anyway, here is my very honest answer to your question.

First of all, men and women are two very different creatures as you know. For women, after the initial revved up sex from a new relationship, it takes more to get us going - more foreplay, more connecting emotionally, etc.

At around age 50, I began experiencing issues with dryness and sex became painful. I still had a fair amount of libido but it took a little more foreplay to jump start my motor and I needed lubrication. That was based on the physical changes I was experiencing and also simply because at that point, my H and I had been married 17 years and in all honesty sex had become a little mundane. But, I was still willing even though it was painful for me initially. Also, I absolutely could not STAND for him to touch my vaginal area unless it was lubricated - otherwise it felt like sandpaper on skin.

Around age 53 the lack of lubrication became worse. I couldn't generate much, if any, natural lubrication. Sex continued to be painful and for a period of time was worse. I was taking Progesterone that seemed to help somewhat but overall, intercourse was not a pleasant experience for me. And part of it was still the long-married familiarity issue. Unless a couple really works at it I think we all tend to get into a sexual rut. Our intimacy tapered off: 1. Because my H said he was being a "nice guy" and not forcing me and 2. Because it was painful for me and honestly, it had become so mundane it just really didn't do much for me anymore. It became something I endured to please him. I tried really hard not to let that show but ultimately he would end up saying he knew I was only doing it for him. He was right.

Sex means EVERYTHING to my husband. I think like most men it is a measure of how they are loved, wanted, etc. When he wasn't getting as much as he wanted from me and the old girlfriend popped up, well how about that? If they had been in the same city he absolutely would have had a PA. The EA only went on for 3 weeks before I figured out what he was doing, confronted him, and he dropped her like a hot potato.

When the shit hit the fan, we went through the typical HB and I guess all the rage fueled my hormones because I was able to naturally lubricate then. But, as I knew it most certainly would after HB, dryness and boredom became an issue again and remains an issue during intimacy with my husband.

For the longest time I thought I had an issue with my libido. I think I probably do in a way but it's not the serious issue I thought it was. I literally thought my libido was dead. I had no interest in sex. I was trying to write it off to menopause, stress, etc. and there certainly is a portion of that that are issues. I'm not exactly thrilled to climb into a bed when not only is the sex painful and less than fulfilling but also when it's with a man that disrespected me so badly by cheating on me.

Here is the part that is probably going to hurt you and I'm sorry but I think you want honest answers. I've come to realize that the truth of the issue is driven by the fact that I just don't care about having sex with my husband. I still find him attractive and I could endure the physical pain of it if the sex was fulfilling but it's not. It used to be but it hasn't been for years and I just don't care about it. I continue to endure it for him but it's certainly not as frequently as he'd like.

I recognize that much of the issue of lubrication and lack of libido is driven by a true lack of interest in sex with my husband. I figured that out simply because I found myself extremely turned on by watching a major league ball player during a game. I was absolutely stunned at the level of arousal I felt for months after that and I had almost no issue with lubrication. Even now, if I let my mind wander there I will become incredibly aroused. Dear God, I can't believe I even just admitted that on a public forum. But, I really want to help you so I will suffer the humiliation.

I can't tell you what drives your wife but I will tell you that there certainly are menopausal factors that play into lubrication and libido issues. There are also issues with bedroom boredom, familiarity that happens in long-term marriage, anger, resentment, shame, etc. Each of those by itself or coupled with any of the others can lead to a lot of dissatisfaction with intimacy.

If you and your wife want to have an enjoyable sex life it's going to take work. Even then, I can't promise you that lubrication and arousal issues are going to disappear. She is in her late 50's and the damned female body really turns on itself as it begins to get older. But, if the two of you are truly interested in restoring some passion into your sex life I think it can be done. But, you BOTH have to want that. Speak honestly with your wife and get the answers you need.

And now that I have sufficiently humiliated myself by bearing my soul here, I'm slinking off. I'm pretty certain if my husband ever read this I'd be moving over to the divorce forum. He would be pissed not only to read my true feelings but that I would put it out there in an open forum. Of course, most of us have never met but to him it would be like I told everyone we knew.

I hope what I've written helps you.

Hey JT, thanks so much for being vulnerable and sharing that! I for one really needed to hear what you were saying!

I agree with everything you said except my situation is a bit different in that our sex has gone well even after the HB was over...but not all the time!

I have to be really, really feeling in love with my fWH and very turned on to be able to be 100% into sex. If all the stars are not aligning, I too struggle with dryness and not feeling pleasure. For me, deep connection and deep love are absolutely needed for me to even want to have sex. And sometimes, I still wind up crying afterwards because of the mind movies.

I'm guessing that the OP's wife is still feeling a lot of shame mixed with a menopausal body. I don't doubt that it's hard for her to feel aroused and "wet". And in saying this I am NOT defending a WS..at all! It's just the way women work. The stars really have to align before intense, pleasurable sex can take place.

That being said, I think a fWW really needs to sacrifice and step up to the plate a whole lot harder than a BW does! Figure out what she needs to do and do it to help her suffering BH feel more loved and desired. If she doesn't, she's looking at either a miserable life long marriage or a divorce.

@JT4588, don't you dare slink off. I can't speak to your very funny "humiliation" references, but your brutal honesty made me smile and provided valuable context for me.

Here is the part that is probably going to hurt you and I'm sorry but I think you want honest answers. I've come to realize that the truth of the issue is driven by the fact that I just don't care about having sex with my husband. I still find him attractive and I could endure the physical pain of it if the sex was fulfilling but it's not. It used to be but it hasn't been for years and I just don't care about it. I continue to endure it for him but it's certainly not as frequently as he'd like.

I recognize that much of the issue of lubrication and lack of libido is driven by a true lack of interest in sex with my husband. I figured that out simply because I found myself extremely turned on by watching a major league ball player during a game. I was absolutely stunned at the level of arousal I felt for months after that and I had almost no issue with lubrication. Even now, if I let my mind wander there I will become incredibly aroused.

And you have just made my point. This exactly describes my sense of 'our problem.' She attributes it to her libido when it actually has more to do with recoiling from the manner that I want it. That is to say that I enjoy aggressive sex that she finds beneath her status as wife and mother. It (meaning my preference) compromises her dignity, and the recognition/respect she feels she is due from her husband/life partner.

Conversely, this morning the man in her bed wasn't the man her husband has been. This, in part, because of the change in my demeanor at home. I've been more aloof while still being considerate, and far less co-dependent. And, also, because of my love making approach this morning.

Just saying the 'lack of libido' refrain is a red-herring for something else. She got a different guy this morning which was a turn on for her.

JT,

First off thank you for posting your insights and honesty are much appreciated.

You wrote, I recognize that much of the issue of lubrication and lack of libido is driven by a true lack of interest in sex with my husband. I figured that out simply because I found myself extremely turned on by watching a major league ball player during a game. I was absolutely stunned at the level of arousal I felt for months after that and I had almost no issue with lubrication.

I believe this is also true about my W, I've seen her respond sexually to certain people, although she claims to have no interest in sex. She even has sexual body language when speaking on the phone with female friends.

I also think like you if my W told me the truth she believes I could't handle it.

It's plain however that she is not completely honest as her reasons keep changing, and she seems uncertain or pressured to come up with an answer.

Proverbs 24:26 An honest answer given is like a kiss on the lips.

NTMIW,

Based on what you are saying it sounds like your wife has a combination of issues. One truly being menopausal symptoms and two, she feels that the "aggressive" sex you want is degrading to her. I'm not sure what your definition of "aggressive sex" is but clearly she is uncomfortable with it. That obviously is going to cause a lot of difficulty for her because if she feels she's being degraded and is humiliated by it, she is definitely not going to want to participate in that. It makes her feel badly about herself.

I understand that everyone has their own personal desires. It does seem that she responded well to the tender caressing so it sounds like she is still receptive to your touch which is a big plus!! Not everyone can say that.

Have you always wanted "aggressive sex" or did that start happening after she had an affair? If it was after, do you feel you are trying to punish her; i.e., treating her almost whorish in bed because that is how you see her now? If so, then I can imagine that's not pleasant for her because not only does she feel your anger but she feels shame for the affair every time you are intimate.

I don't know if there is a way to bridge the gap between your desire for aggressive sex and her desire for a more tender physical connection. Is it possible for the two of you to go to a counselor that specializes in helping couples reconnect both mentally and sexually? Is that something you're interested in or something she is interested in?

And you have just made my point. This exactly describes my sense of 'our problem.' She attributes it to her libido when it actually has more to do with recoiling from the manner that I want it. That is to say that I enjoy aggressive sex that she finds beneath her status as wife and mother. It (meaning my preference) compromises her dignity, and the recognition/respect she feels she is due from her husband/life partner.

Would you feel comfortable elaborating on what "aggressive sex" means to you? Because if I'm not in the mood at all, and my husband wants to just jump right into nipple clamps, biting and slaps, I'm going to recoil.

Conversely, this morning the man in her bed wasn't the man her husband has been. This, in part, because of the change in my demeanor at home. I've been more aloof while still being considerate, and far less co-dependent. And, also, because of my love making approach this morning.

Just saying the 'lack of libido' refrain is a red-herring for something else. She got a different guy this morning which was a turn on for her.

However, if I'm not in the mood and he gives me a really nice back rub leading towards a happy ending, I'm definitely going to be in the mood, possibly for sex that's aggressive in nature...

My point is... if she's not into aggressive sex, are you completely opposed to more intimate/tender/affectionate love making? Did you normally have aggressive sex before the A? Or is this a new thing?

Good morning, ladies, and thanks for making reasoned, non-judgemental observations. JT4588 & ibonnie, your questions are reasonable, and merit response. I should clear the air regarding 'aggressive sex,' but I'll apologize beforehand if the language offends. You did ask, after all.

I've no interest in the Dom/Sub thing. I don't use implements and/or toys to subdue her and to dole out discomfort and pain. Just not my thing. How about we categorize it as animal abandon. I like using my hands to hold her down, and fuck...hard. And for extended periods.

I like going down on her, and still do, but she's said her clitoris is no longer sensitive. So while I do it, in part, because I enjoy the taste and texture, I miss the squirming, writhing, and shrieks. Fine, I can't imagine faking a dead clitoris and so I'll have to accept that.

Yes, my tastes and preference pre-date D-day, but I'll concede that since that May 14th 2016, there's a simmering anger that's entered the bedroom. I don't know, reclaiming what's mine? Punishing her? Sure, I suppose. Does the language I use while growling in her ear during the fucking demean? Sure. Guilty.

I ask you, how much respect should I bring. How much respect has she brought. Am I to maintain that 'better man' persona 24/7 that stays the course in the 'high road' lane despite the attention she's sought elsewhere. Because I'll tell you, she's not had to endure snarky, dismissive retribution outside the bedroom. I treat her like an adult human who occupies equal footing everywhere else.

Hell, I'll just throw this out there. I've read it said plenty where men complain of their women happily getting their freak on to please and gain approval of the OM, but coming home with an entitled sense of boundary demands made of their locked in male mule. This is unpalatable to me.

The other morning, my approach was what I was in the mood for. Wrapping my arms around her, nuzzling her, running my finder tips slowly over her whole body was for me. It had her soaked. Fine. I can do more of that.

But...particularly given our recent history, I'll not be limited to this approach when I'm pretty damn certain she's no different from the women described above. That, if she were to act on her attraction for another man, she, too, would submit to gain his approval. All the while, limiting me to intimacy on terms that feed her hubris.

During our Saturday morning chat sessions used to express where we are at in our heads, trying to sync up, get on the same page, I've told her "I've not cheated...yet. Frankly, given our circumstances where my business currently demands my undivided attention, chasing tail is inconvenient. But, sans a devoted, adoring, and attentive wife, the day will come when I'll act on the outside attention I get." Yes, I know, not a welcome observation in this forum.

But enuf is enuf.

NotTheMan,

What did you ever do about the OM, confront, expose, make his life hell etc.

I like using my hands to hold her down, and fuck...hard. And for extended periods.

It may be that she does not like this. I know I would not, or at least not too often and certainly not for 'extended periods' (yawn) - it feels (For me) less like 'animal abandonment' and more like rape. And more about your pleasure than hers.

I am not accusing you of rape here - it is a sexual preference for you that seems to be about power, control, resistance and submission, and that dynamic certainly has its place in sex and erotic behaviour, and can be an exciting dynamic between H and I also. But if I felt that he always wanted to fuck me hard for extended periods whilst being pinned down I would be very very reluctant to ever initiate sex or submit to sexual invitation. In fact, I don't think I would still be with him. For myself, (and only that), that aggression and coercion would make me feel very used, without agency, even perhaps afraid and in fact it would get dreary.

It may be your manner of sex therefore, that is off-putting for her now, in her menopausal state, and you should not personalise this as a rejection of you but rather a renegotiation of the pleasures and dynamics of the act of making love where both partners' respond sensitively to changes and hopefully deepen the intimate contact between you.

The menopausal effects on a woman's physiology and libido might seem to be bad design, given a possible mismatch at this time of life but only IF we let them affect things too much. At the same time, listening carefully to each other and finding new ways can overcome any 'design deficits' menopause might bring.

(great post JT)

[This message edited by Edie at 10:53 AM, January 13th (Sunday)]

Hell, I'll just throw this out there. I've read it said plenty where men complain of their women happily getting their freak on to please and gain approval of the OM, but coming home with an entitled sense of boundary demands made of their locked in male mule. This is unpalatable to me.

You say "unpalatable" I say "unacceptable". And just know, you're not alone in this. It's a topic we discuss here all the time including some threads that reached out to close to 50 pages. The gist, almost no men are "OK" with their W going from demure "no, I'm not that kind of girl" shy lover who needs hours of romance to get "in the mood" to AP, where she's f**king the OM in the car, giving BJs in public and having sex 5 times a day back to "I need flowers and romance" after d-day. It's not going to happen for most people, and that point was hammered home in those threads. I don't think you have this situation, but it's common that the WW denies her husband something (often anal sex or swallowing semen) and then happily does exactly that on the 1st "date" with the AP. And then, after discovery, wants to go back to the "I don't like to swallow". Simple version, while she may be telling the truth, it's just a non-starter for most BH's. It's not even "seeing her differently" it's all the experiences lost by you (the BS) that you wanted to have and well, in my view, will have after d-day. The only question is it with my WW or someone else. Because, like you, there's no more "I'm a good church girl and don't do that" anymore in my house. You f**ked another man. It doesn't get "kinkier" than that. And you did those things with him the 1st time you slept together. So, guess what? You either find the enthusiasm to do them with me, or, we're over. It's not a threat, it's not compelling it, it's simply a hard limit for me; I'm not going to have to call up the OM and ask him "Hey, you POSOM, mind telling me what it's like to have anal sex with my wife". Nope, not gonna happen, not for me, and I suspect, not for many men.

Yes, our sex has gotten rougher. Not to punish her, because that's the kind of sex I like, and by God, I'm done sacrificing my sexuality for her. I'm going to enjoy it and I want her to do the same, I love having sex with her, but the era of "I'm just not a sexual person" died the day she decided to sleep with 2 men on the same day.

This...

almost no men are "OK" with their W going from demure "no, I'm not that kind of girl" shy lover who needs hours of romance to get "in the mood" to AP, where she's f**king the OM in the car, giving BJs in public and having sex 5 times a day back to "I need flowers and romance" after d-day.

And this...

It's not even "seeing her differently" it's all the experiences lost by you (the BS) that you wanted to have and well, in my view, will have after d-day. The only question is it with my WW or someone else. Because, like you, there's no more "I'm a good church girl and don't do that" anymore in my house. You f**ked another man. It doesn't get "kinkier" than that. And you did those things with him the 1st time you slept together.

And this...

Yes, our sex has gotten rougher. Not to punish her, because that's the kind of sex I like, and by God, I'm done sacrificing my sexuality for her. I'm going to enjoy it and I want her to do the same, I love having sex with her, but the era of "I'm just not a sexual person" died the day she decided to sleep with 2 men on the same day.

@Edie, Rideitout does a better job of articulating how I feel. Your counsel is something I'd have felt compelled to consider pre-D-day, but I'm feeling pretty damn selfish these days.

@survrus, I only stumbled into the SI community a few months ago after flying through this shit storm solo for about 2 and half years. The OM lives 3 hours away and I called him a year after D-day when I suspected that they'd recently met. I sent the very quiet, clear message that I'm not to be fucked with. I know, not real impressive, but if I'd known about this place from the beginning, I wouldn't have made every imaginable rookie BS mistake there is.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 1:17 PM, January 13th (Sunday)]

What say you folks? Ladies? Care to chime in?

I was under the misapprehension that you wanted a range of female perspectives - and that you had a genuine interest in trying to understand female sexuality.

And so.... tried to offer one perspective.