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OktoberMest posted 11/10/2018 05:22 AM

At the end of October 2011 I had and EA which was turning into a PA. I was caught. I gaslighted, trickle truthed, blamed shifted you name it I did it. My BS dragged me to marriage counselling, forced me to post here and by March 2012 I was eventually at a point where I gave up the affair. The affair itself had ended in November - but the March was the last trickle truth date.

We worked on ourselves and our marriage. For seven years we had reconciled. I understood my hows and whys - what allowed me to start the affair back then. I have changed in so many ways. We had a daughter in 2017 - she's 20 months now.

I have actively protected our marriage during this time - no one-to-one scenarios, full disclosure, honesty. Somewhere we stopped working on our relationship with each other and focussed on our work, our daughter. Please bear with me - this is not my excuse. It is never an excuse, I am more than aware of this.

The point of that is I should have stood my ground and asked my now BS again for help with our marriage. In truth, we both admit problems were there and we did nothing. On the face of things we are a good team. He is a wonderful father and by making adjustments to his working life I was able to return to work full time. This has led to altercations repeatedly and resentment if I'm honest. But we're mostly pretty ok. Instead I buried my head on day to day, and only picked the matter up in a row about something. He'd yell at me, I'd scream at him - we need to go back to counselling, but I never booked it. I didn't act. He didn't act. Then it would all settle again. The sexual part of our relationship has never recovered really since before the first affair, but we've both just let it go. Good team, good friends.

I went away on business for the first time since my daughter was born in mid September. I was in contact with my BS as I would be normally to verify and reassure. I was in no risk I believed. I socialised quite a bit - all in company.

I became reacquainted with someone on the trip and we started chatting about work. We had a brief one-to-one situation about work matters lasting no more than 10 mins. I didn't think anything of it at the time. The rest of the time we were together was in company - it was a party. There was clearly a connection. I didn't recognise it at the time. But shortly afterwards I knew there was.

In the next few days we spoke on the phone - messaged. Calls became more frequent, messages regular. Discussions became more personal, intimate. I haven't seen him since. We had planned to meet in a couple of weeks for the first time. Both of us have acknowledged a strong connection, and allowed an emotional affair to start, continue and deepen. Is it a PA? No. Ive never kissed him. Honestly, I know this is due to geography. We live 300 miles apart.

Last night my BS saw me hide my phone. He'd already been on high alert subconsciously sensing something. He asked to see it. I showed him. I didn't lie anymore. I know the drill.

I've told him everything. He has emailed the AP and the AP is going to call him later. I have no idea what either one expects. I know there is no TT and nothing to discover I haven't already said. The AP has told me to leave him alone as he's trying to protect his family now. (married+2 kids). I always said I'd respect that decision should the time come. I'm a fool - I knew the risks, the odds, the outcome, but I still let it happen.

I've been here before. I was so proud of the work I'd done, and what my BS and I had achieved. So why? why now go back?

My whys have always been about low self esteem and poor boundaries. My self esteem is ok. I recognise I've acted horrendously to my BS, my daughter, and my APs family. I also know the AP is accountable for his part and his choices. I let my boundaries down enough for this one person to get close to. I am accountable and I know that.

Worse still I recognised it for what it was early on. I had the conversation with myself over and over and on a number of times with the AP. Still I acted to allow and submerge myself in the EA. I can't pretend I didn't know.

Yes our marriage has problems. Yes we both knew that and neither of us has acted. But I am the one the stepped outside. Allowed my needs to be met by the AP rather than pulling myself up and running home to ask my BS for help.

This time is the same and different. We are both in shock. Neither of us is screaming or yelling or crying. We aren't making reflex decisions. I don't know what to do. I have allowed myself to care about someone else again. I am hurting as that is now gone. I am a fool as I knew that this would be the outcome.

I see my BS who I do love and care for, hurting in front of me - purely because of what I have done to him. How selfishly I have acted. I want to reach out. But I am afraid.

Should we even consider reconciliation for a second time? Will I do the work again and then end here again because we repeat the same cycle together. I can't put all of us through that again and again and again. I don't want to stay for the reason of being scared. I'm not running away because I am afraid of the work and the journey either. No-one should stay for the wrong reasons and I will only reconcile - of course if this is even an option for my BS - if it for the right one - to save my marriage. Should I spare him further potential pain and leave? I made my bed I should lie in it? I don't want him to think in the future - did she stay because the AP gave her no choice - always feeling second best. I know he already has questioned what staying to reconcile will say about his own self respect. If we choose to work on this it has to be because we both believe this is worth saving.

I never wanted my daughter to experience this. My BS tells me I am a bad mother because of my actions. I understand that. I can't agree yet - may be thats because it's too fresh, may be it isn't true. What I do admit is that I put my needs above hers. That's not great parenting for sure.

I feel exhausted. Empty. Guilty. Accountable. Resigned. My heart aches. I want to be loved - my BS loves me - and I still sought more. We have different love languages so express differently. I know that. He knows that. I found someone who by pure co-incidence unbeknownst to be communicated in the way I did. That is just taking the easier path isn't it? Sharing the same means of communication makes everything easier, more natural. I fell for that. I knew it shortly into our discussions regarding work topics - just by the way we communicated. He met my needs and I let him. I actively chose that AP over my BS every day for the last 7 weeks or so.

I am trying very hard for this not to be a woe is me. Woe is not me, I chose this. I have selected to allow BS response deliberately. Am I foggy - probably? Or am I just hurting too? Probably. Is that even allowed? I know part of the process is grieving. For my own respect. For who I thought I'd become. For my BS. For my marriage. And yes wrong as it is, for my AP who I'd allowed myself to care for. If I could remove that last one I would - I'd then know exactly what to do.

I don't know what I'm seeking right now. May be a 2x4 will help - may be not. I'm pretty sure nothing said to me will be a shock and I'm pretty sure it'll all be true from those who post here.

Last time my BS carried the weight of reconciliation for both of us for so long. I know that can't happen again if we decide to reconcile. To be honest, last night was DDay. He asked me to post here. I wasn't sure I would. But here I am. He's out with our daughter. So there is no pressure for me to post. But who else can I turn to? So here I am, just sharing.

Yearsgoneby posted 11/10/2018 06:29 AM

Hi OktoberMest,

Iím sorry you are here again and that you are hurting.

My thought is, gently, that in truth, you never really ďgot itĒ the first time around. I believe that a WS that truly gets it will not cheat again. You need to understand the depths of your husbandís pain, he is not merely hurting it is so, so much more than that.

The problem with EAís is the BS always wonders if they have the truth. That is torture that will be ongoing, hopefully not forever.

As a BS, I made a promise to myself that there were no more 2nd chances. My husband knew this. Had he cheated again it would have been over. In 14 years post A, up until his death he did not. I do not know your Hís stance on this. I hope, whatever it is, he remains true to himself.


JustWow posted 11/10/2018 08:10 AM

The state of your M had nothing to do with your cheating. Marriages don't cheat. People with poor coping skills, poor integrity and poor boundaries cheat. These are likely some starting points for you to work on with a good IC who understands infidelity. Your H was in the same dismal union and needed no A, correct?

You never truly dealt with your issues the first time and you chose all the same things again. This is not a MC issue, this is an IC issue. Even if your BH chooses to not try to R, you should try to be the best version of yourself. How your child sees her parents and family act becomes what normal is for them, make that the very best you are capable of.

VinST posted 11/10/2018 08:19 AM

Think about this.. you knowingly put your husband, stable home, and yes your daughter, second for a thrill yet again.
are you a bad mother? you most certainly are... based on the above. all the cuddles and comforting is meaningless, because when it came to it, you chose yourself again. How do you look at her in the face and know secretly you put her security second... and was willing to cheat on her dad?
Doing the "confession" of how broken you are etc etc is a moot point, you knew all this yet you still chose to do it again, and would have likely ended up physical... so in theory you went all the way despite not having touched each other.

How bout giving your husband a free pass for a year to develop an emotional connection with someone else and end up in a PA? Perhaps you will only get when it is done to you. Hmmm but that may be a hard pill to swallow when the shoe is on the other foot.
If I were you H I would ask you to walk. But perhaps he is better man that I give you another chance you don't deserve.

Waywards never get it... business trips, social gatherings.. recipe for disaster. STAY away for crying out loud!

[This message edited by VinST at 8:22 AM, November 10th (Saturday)]

jb3199 posted 11/10/2018 08:43 AM

I remember your story. I didn't remember your husband dragging you to this site, but I have to be honest---I thought that you did 'get it'. But then again, I thought that my WW 'got it' at a certain point....only to be blindsided. That is the brutal part about ripping away a person's trust---it is exponentially more difficult to gain it back a second time.

I hope that you do find your way. I don't have much more to offer at this point.

HellFire posted 11/10/2018 08:54 AM

You have asked your husband not to tell the OBS because you have feelings for the OM.

I remember both you, and your husband. I remember his pain was palpable. He was destroyed by your last affair,and you've done this to him again. That you were capable of doing it again,tells me you didn't really do the work before. You complied. A truly remorseful WS who actually did the work, wouldn't cheat again.

As to you being a bad mother. You knew exactly what an affair would do to the father of your child,and you did it anyway. You were planning on taking it physical. So you were going to expose him to potential deadly STDs. Your child's father. You risked your daughter's family,happiness,and sense of security for your own selfish need of getting ego kibble. You knew,if caught, your husband would probably file for divorce, which would confuse your daughter,and you would lose 50% of your time with her. You broke your home. Again.

Your husband will most certainly tell his wife. I suggest you not warn him,or try to stop your husband. She deserves to know. Her home is already broken,she just doesn't know it yet.

Affairs are fantasy. You don't know this man. You only know what he's chosen to show you. It's all fake. You may have been looking for ego kibble, but he was looking for easy sex.

I'm so very sorry you put your family in this position again. Do you want to attempt reconciliation? What will you do differently this time?

It doesn't matter what was going on in the marriage. Couples go through hard times. That's life. So,though you said you weren't making any excuses, the bulk of your post is about how hard the marriage had become. It seems clear you,at least on some level,blame the marriage.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:56 AM, November 10th (Saturday)]

Ripped62 posted 11/10/2018 09:05 AM

Do you know why you are willing to engage in an EA and proceed to a PA with a married man?

Do you know why a married man is willing to interact with you to engage in an EA and proceed to a PA?

Do you know your initiating behavior?

Carissima posted 11/10/2018 10:41 AM

No stop sign.

I'm new here so I don't know you from before.

My impression as I was reading was 'Why?' Not why did you do it but why are you here because I'm not feeling anything close to even regret. Then I got to the part where your BS asked you to post and it made sense, this is a ticking the box exercise.

This may sound harsh but I recommend you do some hard thinking. Oh this may have been an EA but that's solely because of a lack of time and opportunity. You had already made arrangements for things to go physical. You've already put your BH through the hell of reconciliation for 7 years, it's time to consider if you actually want to be married to him.

OktoberMest posted 11/10/2018 10:54 AM

My BS was crystal clear at the end of the the first EA that we would be done if this ever happened again.
For now he doesnít know what he wants. Thatís more than I expected and more than I deserve.
I did a lot of Mc and IC seven years ago - and I genuinely think I had a pretty good handle of why I allowed myself stray. I did get it I thought as did my IC and my BS. May be youre right, maybe I didnít.
I donít blame my marriage for my actions. As is so rightly pointed out my BS didnít cheat and he is in the same marriage.
Poor boundaries and low self esteem were the key things I identified with.
I certainly exhibited the poor boundary issue again allowing violation of my one to one scenario rule.
Why did I seek an Ea with a married man? I didnít seek anything. Thatís my trouble I just allowed the 1-1 time to continue on the phone and hey presto there we are. Itís not meant to sound flippant but it does I know. I just donít know how better to explain it. Why did I keep picking up the phone or keep calling? Selfishness. Thatís a pretty grim thing to admit but Iíve got nothing better right now. I thought about me. I thought about my BS little and my daughter even less. Yes youíre right that does make me a bad mother.

Did I set out jeopardise the future of my child and my husbandís world again? No, but did I with every message and call - yes.

What made a married man seek an ea with me? I canít answer that. I understand some people making the assumption it was for a quick shag - Iím a poor choice as Iím so far away and so physically unavailable. Only he can answer that.

My BS has spoken with the AP now and I strongly suspect he will heed the warning to stay away. For now my BS is not telling his wife etc. Thatís his choice FWIW not mine.

I have NC with the AP. I am just trying to take advise be open and keep searching - this is less than24 hours since dday - be gentle if you can.

redrock posted 11/10/2018 11:32 AM

I donít think itís impossible for a sincere person to work towards R and then down the road.conduct another affair. They can know what there is to know and still choose themselves and the rush of an affair over their family. Easy over hard. Ice cream over broccoli. Secret texts over authentic work with a spouse who may not agree with you. Selfishness feeds the now.

You said it yourself very well. You knew at every step it was wrong and made the conscious choice to engage. Rather than revel in the love language match you should concentrate on the broken match.

2 people whose families trusted them to use a business trip to WORK took that time to get Ďyour needs metí in the most cheap fraudulent way possible.

You want to talk about the difficulties in your marriage and the ease of the affair because of your connection and love language. But the bottom line fact is that you got the new relationship high and you both escalated because it felt good in the moment

You didnít have to reconcile a lifetime of daily frictions and resentments. You didnt have to work for years, make compromises, deal with raising a child, 2 careers, household jobs, in laws and so on and so on.

I donít know if your husband will have the grace to grant you another opportunity to R.

No matter what happens you owe it to yourself to work on you. You are not a passive pawn that lets things happen or falls. Whatever the state of your marriage, you have a lot of individual work. And you can do it. I hope you see your actions for what they are and make steps to address why you threw away so much for so little.

[This message edited by redrock at 11:39 AM, November 10th (Saturday)]

Barregirl posted 11/10/2018 11:59 AM

The thing about R is that there is no end to the journey. As WSs, we need to always be doing our work of being safe partners. We know that selfishness, entitlement, and poor boundaries live within us, and we must work at keeping those at bay. If we stop and slip back into old habits, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

foreverlabeled posted 11/10/2018 12:31 PM

Will I do the work again and then end here again because we repeat the same cycle together.
Well, it's obvious you didn't do the work the first time. If you want to be honest with yourself start there. I so believe in the work we take on to transform ourselves, and that's thing.. it will transform you, it will alter your thought process and beliefs. I believe this work will strip me of anything within that thinks cheating is a valid choice. There was no new/healthier thought process to guide you because you didn't do anything about it in the first place and you waltzed right back into your cheating ways.

I know how awful it is right after dday, the feelings. I find it easy to put myself in those early days and feel it almost as true. So I get the want for a soft approach, I joined about two days later. Super fresh. But I'm sorry I don't have sympathy for you, not this time around. Not yet anyway. I just wonder how you could shake your feeling of remorse? I think that is something that I will feel until the end of time. I can't imagine it leaving me. How does one forget that kind of trauma?

There was clearly a connection. I didn't recognize it at the time. But shortly afterwards I knew there was.
Like in this situation for example. How did your first dday not flash before your eyes and not be filled with remorse? And again if you had actually done the work a healthy person would have boundaries up. You didn't let them down as you stated imo they were never there.

Maybe this was the first real opportunity since you first dday to enter into an affair, and you didn't even blink. You said you've changed in so many ways yet here you are again. Where was your focus on meaningful change? This is the fear our BSs live with.

I'm sure the advice hasn't changed much for how to help your BH, if you need a refresher "how to help your spouse heal from your affair" is the book I always recommend to newbies. I do know change takes a deep desire, it's not for everyone. And one will want it for themselves first and foremost, otherwise it won't last. Above all it requires actual work.

Welcome back.

HellFire posted 11/10/2018 12:39 PM

You say you knew if you did it again,he would be done..then say you didn't set out to end your marriage. Yet,you knew you were doing just that.

You asked your husband not to tell the OBS. So you influenced his decision. It's clear you want to protect the AP, when you had no qualms about destroying your husband. Encourage your husband to do the right thing and tell the OBS. It will show your husband you value him more than the AP. Unless you don't. Then I guess you will cross your fingers that he helps you and AP keep this a secret from her.

Zugzwang posted 11/10/2018 17:17 PM

Yes our marriage has problems. Yes we both knew that and neither of us has acted. But I am the one the stepped outside. Allowed my needs to be met by the AP rather than pulling myself up and running home to ask my BS for help.

Still you are blaming the marriage. You cheated because your husband wasn't meeting your needs and wants. So, you found someone else. Why? Because of you. You need and want other people to make you happy. You never changed and you didn't learn how to just make yourself happy in a healthy way. You still just got by till your marriage began to fall apart and your husband wasn't making you happy. You are still selfish and self-absorbed. You white-knuckled it for years.

I have actively protected our marriage during this time - no one-to-one scenarios, full disclosure, honesty.
You actively protected it because you didn't trust yourself. You thought it was the outside temptations faults or the state of the marriage, when it has been you all this time. Your selfishness and your lack of making yourself happy and confident.

Honestly, I really question if you really have self esteem. Your esteem is tied to validation. Your validation is tied to what you think is a expression of love according to your love language. If you don't get it your way, you write it off. That isn't change or growth. That is staying selfish. I also don't see how you have been honest. You were unhappy and didn't speak up.

Yes we both knew that and neither of us has acted
Will I do the work again and then end here again because we repeat the same cycle together.
Always was about the marriage with you. Only because you don't say is we with you. You blame him too. Why not just say I. I knew and I didn't act. That is why you are here again. You blamed the marriage and him. It was you and only you. Your husband is in the same marriage and doesn't cheat to get his unhealthy needs fed. It is no ones job but your own to make yourself happy. Stop relying on other people to build you up.

I fell for that.
You didn't fall for that. You actively chose that. HUGE difference.

Last time my BS carried the weight of reconciliation for both of us for so long
I have to wonder if your husband rugswept with you and "niced" you out of your affair last time. Put up with the bullshit excuse of it being about him and the marriage. Fixed everything by him changing and not you. Didn't hold your ass to the fire. IMO this is what happens when a BS just swallows the shit sandwich and allows the WS to focus on the marriage being the issue. You still take them for granted. You had no reason to change because the outside stimuli to your personal fucked up reasons changed enough to just get by for the time.

Zugzwang posted 11/10/2018 17:25 PM

You want to know why you did all this even though you thought you self esteem was okay? You didnt care and you really werent afraid of losing anything. You have banked on your husband's good character and integrity. You banked on being that important to him to do what you selfishly looked to do. You chose to take his gift for granted and advantage of because you thought you could get away with it again because this other asshole spoke the same love language You chose to treat your family like a door mat for your selfish reasons because you weren't burned bad enough to never want to do it again. You were always regretful and never changed for yourself. Just to white-knuckle and meet the demands to just get by. The first time was too nice.

VinST posted 11/10/2018 17:25 PM

Taking the liberty to respond again..

your words paint the picture of a very self absorbed person who likes attention. I personally don't think it has anything to do with self esteem issues. I put it to you that you may secretly think too highly of yourself. Perhaps you feel you deserve better than your husband? You might call this crap.. but your actions show a sense of entitlement. You considered the risks and yet took it for some excitement. Call it spoiled if you like.

How about giving your husband a divorce and try winning him back again. Maybe you could give your ego a real challenge! This could be something to consider seriously and a way you would be free to pursue other married men at social events. you know... "connect"!!!

I am really sorry I have nothing nice to say... this was a frustrating read ... it beggars belief that you would consciously risk it all for another pathetic married loser. (note that you were willing to ruin his marriage as well, what does that say about your intentions?)

I actually feel sorry for you. Maybe your are just not marriage or mother material.
I wish your husband and dear daughter the best!

[This message edited by VinST at 5:27 PM, November 10th (Saturday)]

Wool94 posted 11/10/2018 17:45 PM

Just out of morbid curiosity, what did your EA consist of?

Mrs Panda posted 11/10/2018 18:50 PM

Hi Oktobermest,

I remember your name as I was on this site a lot around that time. I am 10 years out now.

I am a pretty frank person. So I see it like this:

1. You didnít really change and do all the necessary work.
2. You blame the marriage still and instead of addressing those issues in a healthy way, you have alternative coping mechanisms.
3. You donít have real empathy for what your BS is going though.

I say these things with kindness. You sound like a caring person. You also sound lost and disconnected. Find yourself.

SorrowfulMoon posted 11/10/2018 20:12 PM

I remember reading your husband's story on another site. I didn't post, as I was not registered then, but fully supported the reconciliation.

I also remember one member here who was basically anti reconciliation referring yours as one of only two that he had ever considered genuine.

Wow, was I wrong and was he wrong. Words almost fail.

Your post is full of wayward thinking, so it is clear that you were not remorseful the first time round.

We have different love languages so express differently. I know that. He knows that. I found someone who by pure co-incidence unbeknownst to be communicated in the way I did.

So, you had a 10 minute meeting with a guy and frequent phone calls and messages and now this POSOM better understands your love languages than your husband of many, many years. Have you asked yourself if he understands his own wife's love languages.
and hey presto there we are.

That pretty much sums up how much you value your husband and your own integrity.
Affairs are fantasy. You don't know this man. You only know what he's chosen to show you. It's all fake. You may have been looking for ego kibble, but he was looking for easy sex.

Do you agree with this? Did you not learn this after your first betrayal? Or do you still not understand. This POSUM is just a player, he doesn't care about you. Like you he is just a coward running away from marriage problems. It is sadly very pathetic of you both. It is not romantic, can you not see that? Truly amazing.

I don't understand you or your motivations but what I do understand is that you are not and have never been remorseful. It may be counter-intuitive but to me that is the only saving grace in this whole fiasco.

If you had been remorseful the first time round then I believe there is absolutely no hope for the marriage. The willingness to betray your husband fully understanding the ramifications would be just too great for him to accept. Your ONLY chance to save your marriage, if you even want to that is, is to tell your husband that on reflection the first time was a false reconciliation and this time you are absolutely determined to show him your true remorse.

That you do not want to reconcile because you love your marriage, your security, your family, your standing in society and with friends etc. It is because you love him and are in love with him. If you are not, for pity's sake let him go gracefully and become a co-operative co-parent to your poor betrayed daughter.

Sumofan posted 11/10/2018 22:37 PM

Hello OctoberMest,

I am sure you both are in shock. This may be your wake up call. A true one. You and your H now know there is much more to do in your personal journey of growth. You cannot now say ďI am never gonna do this again.Ē Your H will know you can and you have. The question ďwhy?Ē is your own to answer. I hope you make sure that he has nothing to do with your bad choices to go down this path again.

I am a BS whose H had an EA ( which he didnít consider as an A) then a full blown EA/PA with a hooker who wanted my life.

But he was the one who let her in. After the EA, he like you went MC etc promised never to do behind my back what he wouldnít do in front of me. Well, that didnít work. He had issues upon issues. The time between the 2 As was about 10 years. He learnt a little forgot a whole lot and life got in the way. He didnít really address the ďwhyĒ, yes low self-esteem bad boundaries etc but it was rooted in his world view his ingrained FOO issues. This was not address fully the first time around.

Without this big an event, my H would never ever looked at himself, really really examined the person inside. Soul searching is the term I think. Dismantling the beliefs of a lifetime so that he could have a chance for a better future.

It does take years, and blood and tears and pain but it is worth it. My H is stronger inside than he has ever been. He respects and values himself and is healthy mentally and spiritually. When you do this hard work, something does change inside you. There is no defensiveness and no blame shifting. There is acceptance that you are human and you royally fíd up. There is also a genuine desire to make amends. Not surface stuff but a desire to be there for this other person and not wanting this person to be hurt in any way again. You become vigilant, take nothing for granted and are grateful for what you have.

I really hope that you take this time to re-examine your ďwhyĒ and find someone IRL (IC Pastor BFF) who helps you find the tools to grow in your Self and your M.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

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