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Different perspective

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Atg100 posted 9/20/2018 15:06 PM

Thanks Butforthegrace,
you surely have a way with words... I needed to hear it so bluntly.

And to keep it real:
She only admitted to me that she saw the other guy much more often, after I mentioned some logical reasons why the original version didn't add up.

And she again tried the "just the friend " excuse, even though, minutes prior , she admitted that he was more.

We talked about the holidays. I explained that I need the holidays (I do !) and that I'm happy to go with the kids on my own.
I pointed out that during our last holiday, the other guy must have been on her mind , and they were most likely messaging during that time.
I told her that this last holiday now really does not hold any nice memories for me, as a consequence.
She denies that he was on her mind.

Anyway - I made it very clear that I am happy to use this trip as a way to reconcile.
But I also said that I am not prepared to compete with her memories of that affair for her attention, during that trip.
She told me that she wants me to be the only man in her life and that she will do her best on the trip. Which is a good thing, if true.
We will make a decision tonight about it.
I left very early for work, I did not want to see her this morning.

Butforthegrace posted 9/20/2018 22:19 PM

She only admitted to me that she saw the other guy much more often, after I mentioned some logical reasons why the original version didn't add up.

We call this "Trickle Truth" or "TT". It is one of the more maddening aspects of the way WW's lie, minimize, and sidestep. You may never know the full truth. Based on experience here on SI, the truth is very possibly that she saw the other guy much more often, and by "saw" I mean she saw the look of pleasure on his face as his penis was inside her various orifices.

Again, a detailed timeline, corroborated by texts and other messages, and then reviewed with BOW.

Atg100 posted 9/20/2018 23:04 PM

I told her that TT is what she is doing, I explained to her that this is disrespectful to both of us.

We talked again. She wants the holidays to be good for both of us . She assured me of her commitment.

I will focus on me and on time with the kids during the trip.
Be friendly and supportive .
I will not interrogate her about details for the next two weeks.
For some of the time we will be in a little hut , one hour drive from the next village on the west coast of Tasmania ; just us and the kids.
No easy phone reception either.
These are circumstances where we are likely to feel trapped if we have a heated conversation .
I said she can come on holidays as long as she attends counselling right after our return home.
She confirmed this and we booked the appointment.
The counsillor also believes that full disclosure is important.
I am aware that the holidays can be very good or very bad for us .
Now before you come down hard on me for not interrogating her : I need this holiday. I need to sleep more than 4 hours per night, be in the fresh air and not care about work.
If I get those basics right - I will be stronger to deal with the problems at hand.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 12:03 AM, September 21st (Friday)]

Atg100 posted 9/26/2018 16:32 PM

We are now a few days into our trip and I have reception where we are at the moment.
So far, my plan to look after myself first, then the kids and then the marriage works.
I am much more relaxed , keep myself very busy and have a great time with our children.
My wife and I are friendly , working together as a team but I feel quite a bit of contempt for her.
- whenever we have a nice family moment, I think ď and this is what you wanted to throw away, for some selfish reason?Ē
But this is not a healthy way of thinking, to move into any direction. Itís also a way to close myself off- my wife really tries hard at the moment, she doesnít know what Iím thinking.
Today, she and our older boy will spend all day on a historic steam train trip- I suggested that they go. Our 4 year old canít sit still for that amount of time.
But really - I wanted a day without my wife.
She booked individual counselling as well, for when we come back in 10 days, so that is at least is some effort. It is with our counsellor who I believe is very good.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 5:32 PM, September 26th (Wednesday)]

Atg100 posted 9/29/2018 23:11 PM

Back in an area of some phone reception .
My wife woke me up at 2am last night to tell me how sorry she was.
That was interesting - this was the first time that she initiated a discussion.
She didnít give me any details ; just said she was sorry and repeated it again this morning .
I didnít say much. I told her that I could see she is trying to make an effort and appears truly remorseful.
- which she does.
Yet, some of the details of her affair havenít still added up - here is not the time and place to ask her.
I will wait until we are back home and she has been to her first IC next week.
I took a lot of hope out of her apology. I think the time to reflect is helpful for both of us.
Maybe I hope too much - if I read around in the forum, there are a lot of stories of false apologies .
And I donít think that my wife is a lesser cheater than anyone else. Whilst I originally thought/ hoped that she would be different , so many discussions we have had so far, appear to be from the basic cheating text book, as if we are following a script. That alone is disappointing .

nekonamida posted 9/30/2018 08:09 AM

I didnít say much. I told her that I could see she is trying to make an effort and appears truly remorseful.
- which she does.

Please check out one of the many threads on remorse vs regret. Right now she won't even admit to you that he was more than a friend consistently. There is nothing remorseful about that. The full truth and continued honesty are prerequisites to remorse meaning you can't be dishonest and remorseful at the same time.

Butforthegrace posted 9/30/2018 10:58 AM

I would echo what Neko said. Regret happens when the WW realizes she is caught, her gig is up, and her BH won't put up with her BS.

Remorse happens if/when she truly understands the depths to which she has injured you, and she takes steps on her own to figure out how to help you heal.

Atg100 posted 9/30/2018 15:57 PM

Thank you both for your comments.
I may have not expressed myself very well - I am quite aware that she may only be sorry because she got caught.
And, she may only be sorry as she had found out that the AP only pretended to be divorced to get into her pants, rather than being a " true friend ".

On that subject - it was suggested in another thread that books exist on how to seduce married women. I googled that, and the steps such a book suggests are exactly what we see in the affair playbook:
1) Compliment her (and make compliments such as " I bet your husband told you that you look stunning this morning" - that fulfils two purposes: Firstly - a thinly veiled compliment and secondly it makes the husband look bad if he didn't.)
2) Be her true friend - listen, particularly to relationship problems
3) Make her think itís her idea
4) Have wild sex
- From the limited information I have got, the AP knew all the steps, particularly 3 (!). He said stuff like " lets only meet if you really want to"

- Is my wife that gullible? Driven by hormones and full of unfulfilled lust?
- Are all relationships doomed to fail?

I am not making excuses for her, it was her decision all the way through.
Reading here, listening to your advice and keeping a journal has helped me a lot.
The fact that I was very busy with work and some litigation may have created an opportunity.
But her actions are 100% on her.
I will see how we go when we are back home.

ThisIsSoLonely posted 10/1/2018 13:23 PM

I would only like to add that to the extent the OP is being told they must read all the messages to ďfully understandĒ what they are forgiving, I disagree. I found that I read way too much to the point that the words stuck with me more than anything and regardless of whether I chose R or D those words they wrote, especially the things about me, have damaged me in ways that the 50+ times they probably had sex never ever will.

I chose not to read everything I could get my hands on not because I was believing some lie made up by my WH about what they did or did not do, but to protect myself from further pain. In all likelihood I have made things up in my head that weíre different than what really happened, but to me the betrayal was so much worse than anything physical ever could have been, and honestly I do t need to read a word to know his actions cut to the core and for me reading everything would simply be pain mongering and Iíve done enough of that already.

So, think about why you donít want to read everything. If itís to protect her then think some more. If itís to protect you then do whatever you need to.

Atg100 posted 10/1/2018 15:12 PM

Thank you for your advice.
As I pointed up higher in the thread, I donít want to see all the messages, for the very reason that they are full of badness.
The damage is done.
What I need to move on is that my wife, discloses more, opens up and is honest about the nature of the affair.
I also will point out that a few of the details she gave me, do not add up. But do I need to read every flirtatious or explicit message ? No, I donít .
I want to judge her by what she does now. People here point out that cheaters canít be trusted and we shouldnít believe a word they are saying. I would argue that we as betrayed spouses know what is the truth and what isnít .
Why do we find out? Because we are in tune with our partners , we know when something isnít right.
Itís only when we have such suspicion , that we look at phones and pick up on odd behaviour .
And if she cheats again?
Thatís a clear cut case - I deserve better than this . But it will always come out .

I see that a lot of people regret not having had full exposure of all the details and that it troubles them years later.
I am new at this , but I donít want to be in a relationship like this in 2 years time.

At some point I want to find some inner peace with the following facts :
My wife cheated and lied to me.
Can I accept this and move on ? Or does it bother me that much that it is better to divorce ?
But the middle ground - we are together but Iím unhappy looks like the worst possible option to me.
I will give this time , during which I expect us to be at counseling and actively work on our relationship .

And one last edit:
Everyone copes differently and I can understand how people end up in that kind of limbo, being unhappy whilst being in a marriage after a betrayal. I would never judge anyone, after all as a BS , we didn't chose to be here.
Kids, finances, emotions all play a role - I wouldn't want to criticize anyone, who finds her/himself in such a difficult spot, there are individual reasons.
For myself - that's not where I want to be.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 4:40 PM, October 1st (Monday)]

OwningItNow posted 10/1/2018 21:17 PM

I find it interesting that when you focused on yourself and the kids, she suddenly tunes in with an apology. You are doing the natural 180--being good to you because you deserve your attention and the marriage does not.

An affair is not the type of crisis where you throw tons of thought, time, energy and fix it. We want that to be true, but in exhaustion we admit defeat.

It takes time.
A long, uncomfortable, awkward time.

But you are sensing this and being good to yourself, and your wife is feeling she will need to give more. Good. Because she will. Keep it up.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.
Love yourself. Love your kids.
She can wait.

Atg100 posted 10/2/2018 16:06 PM

I agree that this is interesting.
I was encouraged by that as well and had another conversation with her last night.
I explained to her that I enjoyed the holidays so far and hope that we can build on this time together to tackle our relationship problems.
I pointed out to her the importance of honesty into our future dealings, but also made it very clear that I want to achieve one of two options Ė happy together or divorce. I shared my thoughts that carpet sweeping would carry a risk of all this happening again.
I made it clear that I would regard our marriage as failed, if there would be a repetition of her cheating.
She asked me ďdo you think I am sweeping things under the carpet?Ē.
I told her that she is carpet sweeping, minimising and telling me trickle truth.
I pointed out that some of the details she revealed did not add up Ė to which she responded ďI cannot remember all the exact details ď.
She said, ďyou would never let me have a coffee with another guy, even if it is harmlessĒ.
I told her that this is not about the coffee, but about the explicit messages she sent.
She tried to minimise them.
So, all the typical responses, including blame shifting. Ė just from the cheaterís text book.
I told her that I expect her to have a mature and open approach to counselling and working on our marriage.
She told me that she wanted to go to individual counselling first, as she feels she needs to work on her self-confidence. She explained that she received a lot of positive feedback and confidence out of getting the attention from another guy.
(She forgot about the bit that he was lying about his marital status, when giving her this confidence boost.)
We left it like that, her first IC is next week. I made my expectations very clear and she knows that divorce is one of my two options.
So, in summary, there were good and bad points in this discussion.
Focusing on the good Ė at least she has some insights into her reasons.
The bad Ė well, itís just cheaterís manual 1.01.

Stevesn posted 10/2/2018 16:43 PM

You are doing a good job of communicating what you need. You will have to see if she does the work in order to decide if you can R or must D.

Did you share with her the steps from the book you found on how to seduce a married woman.

Remind her that if she was having issues with feeling wanted and desired and was losing confidence she should have come to the man who she committed to be open and honest with the rest of her life as you did in return. You love her. You want her to be happy. Whenever each of you is unhappy itís each other that you should lean on, not another lover.

Falling into the arms of another man was the absolute wrong way to handle it.

When she says he gave her confidence he did that to get into her pants. Not because he actually cared. Until she realizes that she will not be able to R with you.

I hope IC helps. Sounds like you found a good therapist. Honestly your WW should work with her forever.

I have no problem with you giving her words of support and confidence building if you see her doing the work to repair herself and your marriage. But if sheís not, itís best to let her know that you are willing to let her go to be with the AP or whomever she wants and go find your own happiness eventually with someone who loves you and sees you as a true partner for the rest of your life.

Good luck.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:45 PM, October 2nd (Tuesday)]

Butforthegrace posted 10/2/2018 16:54 PM

I can't recall whether she has read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda MacDonald, but if she has not read it, she should (and you should too).

Atg100 posted 10/2/2018 17:28 PM

Thank you both.
No neither of us has read this book.
I will read it next.
I am reading ď The subtle art of not giving a f*** at the moment.
It is excellent.
Now my relationship is something I do give a f*** about.
Here the author writes something along the lines:
If you want a better relationship , you have to have the honest discussions and part of that will be an unpleasant reaction, occult silence and all that - but not having that is worse.
That, and the fact that it appeared that my wife has made progress , motivated me for last nightís discussion.
I havenít seen her this morning yet - Iím in a gym, lifting stuff as my own therapy. Letís see what the day brings

Stevesn posted 10/4/2018 13:32 PM

Howís it going atg?

Atg100 posted 10/4/2018 16:07 PM

Thanks for asking.
Today is the big travel day from Tasmania, back to Queensland. The kids are excited and it will be reasonable stressful.
My wife knows very well what I expect from her - a mature approach to work out what happened and to see what she can do so that this wonít happen again.
I made it clear that there wonít be a repetition of any kind. I was very open and said that I need to protect myself from this pain. She knows that divorce is a real option for me .
My next IC is next week, I donít know when her first IC will be.
She knows that I think itís necessary that she goes; she would prefer to carpet sweep, thatís pretty obvious.
Iíll wait a little bit, before I remind her. But honestly , it would be a strong sign, if she doesnít make the effort.
Tomorrow a female friend asked her to go to a burlesque show. This particular woman always drinks too much when going out. She is married with kids as well. Iím happy for my wife to have female company and a care free evening.
But I wouldnít be surprised if my wife will end up drinking too much as well. We will see - drunk people and children always speak the truth.

RubixCubed posted 10/4/2018 19:03 PM

Blame shifting, trickle truth and lying by omission ...
She is NO WHERE near remorseful. I think you have a tough row to hoe ahead of you and if she stays where she is now in her mindset your marriage is doomed.

The reason many folks here are telling you that you should read the FB messages (I'd bet they have been vaporized into the ether by now) is that she's bullshitting you now and will continue to do so without a baseline of facts as to what happened. You don't have that baseline, so you just keep hoping she's telling you the truth and everything you should know.

[This message edited by RubixCubed at 7:08 PM, October 4th (Thursday)]

Atg100 posted 10/4/2018 20:25 PM

Thank you.
I am well aware of this.
I used the terms you mentioned, when talking to her.
I told her what I expect her to do.

The baseline is that they started sexting in December last year after their work Christmas party.
They have met at least 7 times ( that is what she can remember and admits. ) so letís just double that.
They have messaged probably daily and she always erased the messages, so they are gone. I thought you could down load erased Facebook messages , but apparently you canít.
She admitted that he was more than just a friend, but is all very sketchy on the details.
I think I know enough.

The ball is in her court.
I will judge her by what she does now.
Actions, not words.

But there is a time limit to my patience. If she does nothing but carpet sweeping, then there can not be a long term future.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 8:32 PM, October 4th (Thursday)]

Atg100 posted 10/5/2018 04:58 AM

One last update .
We arrived home after a long journey, but still during business hours.
My wife, without further prompting , booked an IC appointment for next week.
Thatís one little step ...

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