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Different perspective

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AFL1000 posted 11/22/2018 18:56 PM

Hi ATG

I can truly sympathise with you having a spouse or family member with mental health issues; it can be heartbreaking ...especially because of the things they can say and do while in their depressive state of mind.

Based on your previous postings I felt that your wife's diagnosed depression may have been getting worse. Whether her depression led her into the affair or the affair triggered a worsening of the depression is for her psych to assess and do a reassessment of her AD medication.

It does appear that she recognises that her depressive condition is escalating by her comment that she is 'mentally unstable'. Has it been a while since she had a consult with her psych?

With regards to her meeting the AP do you know the level of contact she had with him?

I am sorry you are going through all this but let's hope the combined efforts of her counsellor and psychiatrist will help.

How are you holding up under all of this?


Atg100 posted 11/22/2018 19:18 PM

Hi, thanks for checking in.

Iím only guessing that she may have had contact because of those changes in her mode.
The other explanation could be depression and as you say, it may have become worse.
Her GP wrote her a referral to the psychiatrist in June - and she never went .
Iím guessing that was because she had the feel good drug from her affair going.
The referral has now expired and I wrote her an urgent new one today. I told her that I donít believe, that a pill will fix her and that all Iím doing by writing the referral is to help her out a little..
She needs to do the rest.
But what was first ? The depression or the affair ? Or one leading to the other ?

Iím holding up alright , realising that itís not me.
I have done nothing wrong and even in the last few weeks, have I always managed to present myself from my natural happy side .
There was no pick me dance , there was no dwelling on things or constant pressure .
I feel incredibly sorry for the kids, but Iím not carrying any guilt .
That would be all on her and my job is to be a good dad, which I will be .
Letís see what the counselling brings

RubixCubed posted 11/22/2018 21:30 PM

I think you may be putting too much hope in your counselor. She sounds like a quack. Trying to get you to rugsweep and being manipulative about the info she only shares if it suits her agenda. I'd send that one packing.

Atg100 posted 11/22/2018 21:55 PM

I have to disagree , but maybe I didnít write it very well.
She thinks that full disclosure is most important.
We just never got there .
She had to go very slowly with my wife and thatís the frustrating part.
But thatís due to my wife, not the counselor.

Buster123 posted 11/22/2018 22:47 PM

She said she "has no feelings for you", don't over analyze it, it is what it is, I agree you may be putting too much faith in your counselor, I don't think another session or two will make much difference at this point, it's okay to give it one last shot but please don't get your hopes high and prepare for D, see the thing is she's most likely been in contact with OM, that's why NC is paramount to a successful R and when it comes to a work A, one of them has to quit the job or there isn't much hope for R at all, the first rule of thumb here in SI is NC FOREVER with AP, the best counselor in the world can't compete with fantasy land, if she's still in contact and in close proximity with OM then the A is most likekly active and probably never ended, just went deeper underground, making it impossible to R.

I've say that in order for true remorse to start, a WS has to HATE the A and not think of it as "something beautiful and romantic", FULL EXPOSURE with HR and ALL family and close friends plus the embarrassment and guilt usually help with that, she needs to feel the A destroyed her world, her reputation and her integrity, if she HATES the A, she will HATE OM, I would go nuclear at this point.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 12:01 AM, November 23rd (Friday)]

Atg100 posted 11/22/2018 22:59 PM

Hi thanks ,
I always appreciate your advice.
She also said that her mental state is in a mess and she agreed to see her psychiatrist.
Right now itís one of two things -
- Feelings for the AP
- Depression
Or an unhealthy mix of both.
If I assume that she hasnít caught up with the AP, then I would regret not having checked out the depression side of things.
And again , itís this whole confusing other stuff which is happening.
ď should we get a dogĒ
ď do we catch up with those friends for Christmas?Ē
ď can we still go on holidays together if we separate ď

She doesnít know what she wants

[This message edited by Atg100 at 11:00 PM, November 22nd (Thursday)]

AFL1000 posted 11/22/2018 23:47 PM

We are all trying to support ATG to get out of infidelity that's our primary goal but ATG's wife in her present mental state is not really capable of making rational or the best informed decisions. Her emotional state is all over the place.

While ATG was away she texted him frequently, when he came home she had champagne waiting for him, she called him at work to tell him how well her triathlon training had gone and she was on a bit of a high. Now he is getting the 'she has no feelings for him' but then in the next breath says should we get a dog, can we go on holidays if we separate.

Mrs ATG's mental state has to be addressed (she even admitted to ATG that her mental state is a mess) before any final decisions about D or R can be rationally discussed between them. ATG is trying to do what he believes is currently best for him and his wife. and we need to bear in mind there are 2 young kids in the middle of this that need a healthy Mum whatever direction ATG and his wife take with respect to their marriage.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 12:44 AM, November 23rd (Friday)]

Buster123 posted 11/23/2018 00:44 AM

Mrs ATG's mental state has to be addressed before any final decisions about D or R can be rationally discussed between them. ATG is trying to do what he believes is currently best for him and his wife. and we need to bear in mind there are 2 young kids in the middle of this that need a healthy Mum whatever direction ATG and his wife take with respect to their marriage.

I honestly disagree with this statement, she was "smart" enough to carry an A for a long time and has had plenty of time to address her "mentally unstable" state, I suspect "mentally unstable" is code for "I'm very deep in the fog" or "I'm in love with AP and you deserve better". I don't think getting out of infidelity by D and helping her seek help are mutually exclusive, he can't fix her, plus her condition could take years to improve and even if it does, it doesn't necessarily mean she will come back to the M and be "in love" with ATG, the children need at least one "stable" parent and I doubt very much anyone can be for long while living in infidelity and/or in limbo.

I just don't think ATG has a chance to R successfully if NC FOREVER with OM is not implemented, regardless of other factors such as her mental state improving, like I said the best IC/MC cannot compete with fantasy land, OM is fantasy land and as long as she's in contact with him, well the fantasy will continue and that's why I said that to me his only chance to save the M is to go nuclear at this point and EXPOSE to everyone including HR.

AFL1000 posted 11/23/2018 00:49 AM

Buster I respect your viewpoints as always but on this one I agree to disagree. ATG can weigh up our respective views and make his decision accordingly. ATG has never taken up the idea of the nuclear option and has consistently told members he will persevere with the counselling approach and now the intervention of her psychiatrist.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 1:16 AM, November 23rd (Friday)]

Atg100 posted 11/23/2018 01:09 AM

Guys I just want to say that both of you have given me invaluable advice so and whilst at times I may appear as if I am dragging my feet, I would very much like if both of you stay with me on this journey .
I have said it before - Iím a stranger on the internet and yet - you guys have helped me through my darkest hours.
I can not thank you enough.

The counselor messaged me :
She encouraged my wife to see the psychiatrist and then make an informed decision .
Thatís all she had to say .

AFL1000 posted 11/23/2018 01:28 AM

ATG The great value of SI is the tremendous collective wisdom here to help people out of infidelity. And while at times members may disagree our advice is just that advice. You take what you need out of the discussions.

I for one have all the intentions to stay with you on this journey as I am sure Buster and others will also.

Stevesn posted 11/23/2018 06:26 AM

Wow, I took the thanksgiving holiday here off from SI and a lot happened here.

Looks like youíve been in good hands this ATG.

Listen, I donít think you are deluding yourself in any way. You obviously know something is wrong. This is not the way life with a remorseful WS should be.

Truth is whether itís depression or not, right now she canít be a good wife to you.

I have no problem supporting her for a bit to see if the those in the psychology profession can help her. But even if they can, itís a long road from ďI donít love youĒ to fixing her depression, and back loving you and being in love with you.

And during all that you need to keep on the brave face and help your kids through life. Not an easy task.

So I think all of us here are worried about you. Who besides us is supporting you. It seems like you havenít had your own session with the MC in weeks. How about you get a separate IC just for you? I think someone just focused on you and your health would be beneficial.

And lastly, why does the advice above have to be mutually exclusive? I think you really could do and perhaps should do both things.

What do I mean by that? Absolutely support her in getting support from the psychiatrist. Perhaps continue down a path to meet with her in MC next week.

But at the same time, react appropriately to her words. Dont deny or ignore them. If she says she doesnít love you then let her know you hear her and that while you will help her with getting well, at the same time you will begin the process to separate.

If it were me I would take the subject of the OM head on in this discussion:

ďYou say that you donít love me. I will try to start and accept that. I only assume you are now in love with the POSOM. If thatís the case I wonít stand in your way. I cannot be in a relationship with a woman, no matter how much I love her, who cares for someone else more than me. I am glad to work with you to get you to the MC and psychiatrist because I want you to have that support, especially for the sake of the kids, but a person can only hear the words Ď donít love youí so many times before it takes its toll.

I love you WW, but if Iím not what you want in life than Iíll start the process to help both of us move on so we can each find happiness. I have to start realizing you love someone else and not me. I canít ignore that anymore and just hope youíll come back to me. Thatís not a long term strategy that will work. Iím going to start believing your words and take appropriate steps. Ē

ATG, we vow for better or for worse. The part of you that wants her to get help and will assist her in doing so honors this vow. But for too long youíve been pushing down the part that you told us in the very first posts in your thread, that she has said she doesnít love you. Thatís very painful to hear from someone youíre in love with. Iíd like to see you focus on you and the pain this really causes you. Get with the MC next week to discuss just you and what you are feeling from this. Or find another rIC just for you.

We worry about you and I really think you need that support. Youíve been carrying a heavy load here. You can only do that for so long before you run the risk of your own body and mind breaking down. We donít want to see that happen.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:29 AM, November 23rd (Friday)]

Buster123 posted 11/23/2018 11:03 AM

I agree with Stevesn completely and what I said was basically a short version of his (except for the nuclear option of EXPOSURE) that you can still help her and file for D at the same time (they're not "mutually exclusive") and considering D will take a long time, moreover D papers being served coupled with full exposure could even shock her back to reality and help lift the fog, but whatever the outcome in the end you get out of infidelity and preserve your own stability.

I'll say it again, you came here for help with infidelity, and in order to address that, if there's any hope of R, the rule of thumb here in SI and other forums is NC FOREVER with OM, and if they're co-workers one of them has to leave the job, that as long as they're in close proximity the A will likely continue or resume at some point in the future, in your case I think it never ended, just went deeper underground, so the best IC/MC won't be much help while your Mrs ATG is in an active A or "the fog", best case scenario in her situation is that she ended the A but will remain in the fog while being in contact with OM.

ATG I too vow to help you with my best and most sincere advice given the information you post here, but keep in mind "I call it as I see it" but I support you 100% and always hope for the best but also remind you to prepare for the worst just in case.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 11:15 AM, November 23rd (Friday)]

Atg100 posted 11/23/2018 14:41 PM

Thank you all for the words and strong support.
I have two good friends who know about it all who are very supportive .
My boss in the public hospital is outstanding and my partner in my private practice also.
2017 - I had to deal with a lawsuit, which drained me.
2018 - the year of the affair .
My resilience has certainly been tested, I have plenty of weak and sad moments , but overall I have got the belief that I will come out of this stronger.

I talked to my wife briefly this morning.
She asked me if I can wait with any decisions until after she has seen the psychiatrist .
I told her , that as long as she hasnít already made up her mind, I would support her to get her mental health checked .
But if this is just an empty gesture then I would appreciate the honesty if she tells me now.
She said she is unsure and wants to talk to the psychiatrist .
Now - there are three options:
She is not depressed and we split up.
She is depressed, gets new treatment , still doesnít love me and we split up.
She is depressed , gets new treatment and she feels better and we can work on the marriage.
The chances sound pretty slim to me; but this seems to be the last hurdle of uncertainty which needs to be jumped over.
If we then split up, so be it, I tried everything and remained respectful of my vows throughout the process.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 3:49 PM, November 23rd (Friday)]

Carissima posted 11/23/2018 18:16 PM

Hi Atg

Do you mind me asking if her lack of feeling is directed solely at you or is she also having trouble connecting to get children and the rest of her family and friends? The reason I ask is I have been severely depressed during several periods of my life and if you had asked me then I world have replied that i truly felt no love, no feelings or connection to anyone or anything. All feelings were suppressed in this horrendous disease. Obviously everyone is not the same and depression will affect everyone in different ways but do you think other people are being affected by this or are you an isolated case?

I would recommend getting your own IC. While it may be convenient sharing one I would imagine they have a hard time staying neutral in cases like this.

BTW just as a curious question, as a doctor are you able to refer your wife for treatment? I thought you're not allotted to test family?

Remember to take care of yourself and your children.


Atg100 posted 11/23/2018 18:25 PM

Good questions.
Iím not a psychiatrist but many patients with depression who I have seen, had much broader problems , then this isolated dislike of me...
She is incredibly moody with the kids, but they are a handful.
I can refer to another specialist , I only did that to make sure she is ď in the system ď.
I asked the psychiatrist to send all correspondence to the GP and not me, so really only helped with the process rather than the treatment.
She did have severe post natal depresssion so certainly has a history.
But thatís just another good reason to send her to a specialist for that area .

AFL1000 posted 11/23/2018 20:51 PM

Hey ATG

I know that a lot of the recent vigorous discussions from the members has focused on your wife's current mental state and we all hope with professional guidance she will get the help she needs.

But as Stevesn and Buster keep saying this is a surviving infidelity site and we have to keep pushing forward in getting you out of infidelity.

So it occurs to me that you now have the opportune time to get your wife to take personal leave from work to deal with her mental health issues and at the same time break the connection with the environment in which she and her AP met (meet?). Yes I know her leaving the hospital has always been there but you now have a strong reason to act on it.

Buster keeps emphasising that if they are both still in the same workplace the affair is probably continuing. The hospital seems to have been their primary hookup place. It's the place where the affair started and ego-kibbles given. You say that through monitoring she does not appear to be using other devices to contact him so even if she is only part time at the hospital there is always the opportunity she will see him and maintain the fog.

While on leave your wife can also focus more time on her triathlon training given that dedicated exercise helps in relieving the symptoms of depression.

I know you are dealing with a lot but as Carissima says take care of yourself and your kids.

Atg100 posted 11/23/2018 21:18 PM

Hi AFL
I know I have been on this site a lot today, but right now Iím posting from the gym, during a break.
Looking at how my wife behaved in the last few days, I actually donít think that she would agree.
I have been thinking a lot about what everybody said.
Iím trying to make some sense of it all, but reality is, that she has also been lying so much recently and appeared so confused .
I canít do anything to change her any more.
I have put her in the right direction with the psychiatrist and will help her if she asks me. But right now I am looking after myself first and the kids second.

Stevesn posted 11/23/2018 23:08 PM

Ok, but part of looking after yourself is getting your own emotional and mental health support for yourself. Whether or not you are thinking you are handling things well enough, this is hurtful and stressful stuff. You need someone looking after you and your needs only.

I think itís time you had your own IC away from the MC and your WW.

Iím gonna keep pushing on this. Sorry.

Atg100 posted 11/23/2018 23:46 PM

Completely agree.
I work with enough psychologists and psychiatrists , I will ask for a recommendation on Monday for somebody who has my best interest at heart.
I think the current counselor saw my wife as the one she needed to focus on; Iíd say , I appear ok on the surface.
But Iím not - the amount of lying I had to put up with and I actually was prepared to ignore to get back together with my wife has been pretty phenomenal.
Someone with intact mental health would have said at one stop , that enough is enough.
I keep on telling myself that itís better for the kids, but itís actually not. I would be fine with the kids as it is. I just need to get some of the logistics right and once we have a reliable routine, they will adapt .

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