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Different perspective

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Atg100 posted 11/12/2018 20:25 PM

Thank you for checking in.
The weekend was ok ; mainly famil stuff although we really split our time with the kids and didnít do too much together.
I was going over things in my mind and that really put me in a bad mode - my wife picked up on that and asked what was wrong.
I explained that I was cautious to talk to her , as I have learned that she will shut down after any unpleasant discussion.
She said she was happy to talk. I talked to her about her upbringing and confirmed what i thought: it was discouraged by her mum to talk about negative emotions.
She said that she didnít want to talk about marital problems prior to our affair, to avoid looking ungrateful and selfish
But then she chose the most selfish thing to do instead ...
I asked her if she wants to be with me until the rest of her life .
She said that she is still figuring that out.
I told her that I wouldnít settle for less and that the length of the process is wearing me out.
She said then, that she does want to spend the rest of her life with me - but canít give me what I need.
Both of us felt awful afterwards and it just reinforced for me that we only should have these discussions in presence of the counsellor. But when is that ? I send a message to the counselor expressing that I am unhappy with the current slow process , but havenít heard back yet.
Tonight my wife and I go on a date, which she organised so that is something .

Buster123 posted 11/12/2018 22:16 PM

I asked her if she wants to be with me until the rest of her life .
She said that she is still figuring that out.
I told her that I wouldnít settle for less and that the length of the process is wearing me out.
She said then, that she does want to spend the rest of her life with me - but canít give me what I need.

Again just these two statements alone are more than enough reasons to D, at this point she's NOT R material by a very long shot and it seems she has checked out of the M and you are doing the heavy lifting to desperately try to R. She "can't give you what you need", really !!! and what's that ? love, respect, being faithful, etc., I'm not sure answering in front of an MC matters if this is what she truly thinks.

I see you're getting impatient about her slow progress (I honestly don't see much of it if any at all) but let me tell you if you're planning to give R a chance, this is going to take years of hard work and lots of counseling to even try with her doing the heavy lifting and giving her all and even with a fully remorseful WW doing everything right, there are no guarantees. I see the pain this is causing you and I really hope I'm wrong but I'm not an advocate of "Hopium" and have to be honest about what I think.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 10:17 PM, November 12th (Monday)]

Atg100 posted 11/12/2018 22:41 PM

Thanks Buster

I sent my counsellor a message , describing the current situation .
I havenít heard back yet but see if we can go earlier together .

Stevesn posted 11/13/2018 12:32 PM

Hi ATG

Was hoping for better news for you after youíd taken a few day break from here.

I guess the next step truly is to discuss the same in MC together.

TBH, if i had a WW had told me she was trying to figure out if she wanted to spend her life with me, Iíd simply say, ďok, let me know when you figure that out, Iíll be working on the D process in the meantime. If someday you somehow decide Iím the one for you Iím may not be available anymore. Good luck to you. ď

And I would start moving on.

This is not me saying ďD the Bitch!Ē Indiscriminately.

Itís me saying there is nothing you can do if sheís not 100% sure sheís your life partner. Trying to R with someone like this is basically banging your head against a wall. Iím sorry.

Take your time, but if she doesnít somehow convince you she truly loves you and only you, youíre gonna have to start the process sometime. Itís never going to be easy. You sorta just have to dive in.

When if things donít change after the next MC session itís probably time to get some papers written and served.

Iím sorry.

Atg100 posted 11/13/2018 12:47 PM

I havenít heard back from the counselor yet.
My wife organised a surprise dinner last night.
Booked the babysitter, drove the car - and took me to my favourite Texas bbq restaurant in a fancy part of town, where we used to rent before children.
Just talking about fun stuff - and she made plans for our holidays in January . It was a nice evening , and she organized it all.
Hopium ?

You are right , the next MC will be important .

[This message edited by Atg100 at 4:16 PM, November 13th (Tuesday)]

NoOptTo posted 11/13/2018 14:45 PM

ATG,

Just writing to send you strength in dealing with your undesicive WW. Keep to your morals and values. Show your kids all the love you can. Make your decisions in your best interests. You may have to decide for your WW since she isnt making too many strides forward. You will know when to cut bait, til then, hope you keep showing her what real love is.

Buster123 posted 11/13/2018 16:20 PM

She probably felt bad and guilty by telling you the truth, a nice gesture from her no doubt but of course you want a W who loves you and commits to you for life willingly and eagerly, "hopium" seems like it at this time, like Stevesn and I have said, I would be starting the D process now, wait for the next MC session if you like but I don't think a statement like the one she made and her feelings are going to change that quick if at all, maybe D papers being served will shock her back to reality and if it does and she does the heavy lifting to R, you can always stop the process before it's final, either way you get out of infidelity.

steadychevy posted 11/13/2018 19:09 PM

If she's still trying to figure out if she wants to spend the rest of her life with you that would be enough for me. If you're not all in get out. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with her, Atg?

It's hard enough to R with someone who is all in, both feet in, doing everything, giving it their all.

[This message edited by steadychevy at 7:15 PM, November 13th (Tuesday)]

AFL1000 posted 11/13/2018 20:00 PM

Hmmm so your wife said "she didnít want to talk about marital problems prior to our affair, to avoid looking ungrateful and selfish." Did she openly express at anytime what these marital problems were? Have these come up for discussion in IC?

During your conversation she said the most hurtful thing to your question about her wanting to be with you for the rest of her life ..."I am still figuring this out". Oh please! Message to Mrs ATG: With all the discussions with your BS and in IC you still have to figure it out!! You didn't have to figure out having the affair with POSOM ...that happened pretty quickly.

And then she says "I do want to spend the rest of my life with you (but adds the qualifier) but canít give you what you need." What is it that she thinks she can't give you? Has she been explicit about this to you?

I agree with Buster that her actions with the surprise dinner was from guilt about what she said. But it was said and try as she may to take it back, once heard cannot be unheard.

You have now been on SI for 2 months with members trying to help you out of infidelity and walk this journey with you. We will continue to do so.

Members have stated that BSs should take 90 days in order to make decisions about what actions they want to take. You found out about your wife's affair a few weeks prior to coming to SI. You are now approaching the end of that critical 90 days.

You have gone through the gamut of emotions from wanting to divorce her and sorting out your business and financials to thinking, with counselling, R is a possibility but your wife's lack of commitment to be 'all in', to be honest about how she sees your relationship and the withholding of details about the affair leads us to believe this journey is far from over.

We all agree that the next MC will be the crunch point ...your critical questions have to be answered ..one way or the other ..R or D.

Good luck

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 8:52 PM, November 13th (Tuesday)]

Atg100 posted 11/13/2018 22:20 PM

Thanks AFL.
Not only are the 90 days soon up but somewhere in the midst of all my posts, did I write that I donít want to be in limbo forever .
But seemingly have now found my place in purgatory and are now settling in.
The good news today is that the counsellor answered my message .
She understands that I feel like Iím in limbo and she agrees that MC is important. She hopes to see my wife individually this week and us together next week.
Thatís ok, I can do that, one more week wonít hurt.

AFL1000 posted 11/13/2018 23:21 PM

And I meant to add what is going through her mind making plans for your holidays in January with the fate of the marriage hanging over your heads!

Glad your counsellor will do one more week of IC with your wife and next week MC with both of you.

Atg100 posted 11/14/2018 03:41 AM

I donít know what is going through her head to be honest.
To me itís feels like carpet sweeping, but maybe itís an even more and immature way of dealing with the problems at hand.

A friend just told me that she and her husband both had affairs in the last year and they are now getting separated .
Quite intense - she slept with 5 other guys before she had an affair . Iím pretty disappointed in her but she is not a close friend . Itís her life and they donít have kids.
I told my wife about this and she said - ď see, it can always be worse ď
What a stupid thing to say.
But I shouldnít have told her anyway.
Letís see what the counselling will bring. If itís not honesty and commitment, I will be out of here.

Stevesn posted 11/14/2018 09:04 AM

ATG

Iím always very encouraged when both the Wayward and Betrayed Spouses want to try for reconciliation. But Iím also very skeptical.

Next week the words you should be looking for are:
- I love you
- Iím in love with you
- Iím so sorry for the pain this has caused you
- you didnít deserve this
- youíre my one and only
- I will work to regain your trust
- I will make you feel safe
- hereís my plan how I will repair our marriage
- I will find a new job away from the OM by the end of this year
- you are the love of my life

ATG, those are words of a remorseful WS. It doesnít fix anything, but itís a starting point for doing The Work. The actions that follow will show you if itís true.

If you donít here those words, if you get the following, then R will not be possible and you should start to detach
- I love you but am not in love with you
- I donít know what I want
- I am still figuring things out
- I donít want to lose my family
- I canít leave my job for you
- I am not sure I can give what you need.
- Iím still processing my feelings for the OM

These are not a starting point. They are basically words of someone who is too cowardly to end things and is looking for you to do it.

And at that point I believe you should.

One last thing. The aspect of her confessing to a physical affair could fall under either of the above categories. If she confesses, she could still be ALL IN for working on R. The fact that she had physical contact may have made her realize that the OM wasnít all that and youíre her guy.

Likewise the physical connection could have made her realize sheís more compatible with him than you and she just doesnít want to hurt you. She wants you to let her go, making it an exit affair.

Either way, if you get a PA confession, listen to the words she says around them. A begging crying snot-nosed WS is sending a much different message than one who coldly and calmly tells you she slept with him.

I know youíll be prepared going into the next session. Do you think you should discuss what you need to see in order to stay ahead of time with the therapist?

Atg100 posted 11/14/2018 23:45 PM

I would love to have my own IC session prior to the meeting. But time is pretty tight , I think my wife needs to go much more than I do.
Iíll get a short break: Iím flying to Perth from Friday to Sunday.
A good friend from Germany will be over ; I havenít seen him for years.
Coincidentally , my in-laws also live in Perth. I would normally stay with them, but I know that my mother in law would talk to me about our current situation - and I want to avoid this.
This trip was booked before d day .
I have known this friend longer than my wife.
I donít think that she will catch up with the AP ; he is still blocked on all her social media . My wife will have the kids and she hasnít booked the nanny for the weekend.

Nevertheless - this weekend will be all about me.
I have to revisit what I actually want and use the long flight to think about it all, with the be benefit from a bit of distance.
My wife will surely also use the time to do some soul searching - or so I hope.

Stevesn posted 11/15/2018 07:13 AM

I hope this wonít come as a surprise to you when I say that I donít trust your wife not to see him this weekend.

At the burlesque show you found out because you checked her txt msgs when she came home drunk.

Have you been checking her phone for texts and other messaging apps? If you have not kept that up I think it would be wise.

Some would leave a VAR or nanny-cam in the house without telling her. Up to you if you want to take that step.

Truth is, if it were me, before I left I would say something to the effect of, ďobviously our marriage is at a crossroads. If you are planning to see the POS this weekend you will be ending it for good. I am hopeful for us, but only you know whatís in your mind and heart. Be careful. Chasing a fantasy often leads to broken dreamsĒ.

And leave it at that.

Iím just concerned that you wonít have a way to find out if sheís broken NC. Especially with your big discussion coming up.

As for your Therapist. Could you have a brief phone conversation with her before the session letting her know that if your wife isnít ALL IN and showing you that youíre her only love that you plan to start taking steps to detach and move on? Iím hoping thatís your mindset as continuing in limbo, is a poor plan.

Anyway, that all said, I do hope you enjoy your time with your friend. You deserve it.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:14 AM, November 15th (Thursday)]

Cooley2here posted 11/15/2018 08:30 AM

Please consider that your wife has already left mentally. It might take her a while to leave physically.
T/j A coworker of mine found out her husband was cheating and got them both into MC. After three sessions the therapist had her meet with him alone. He told her to give up and move on. He said the three sessions they had told him everything he needed to know. Her husband was not going to give up the OW. As soon as the divorce was final he married the OW who died the following year. My coworker was sad for a long time but began dating a nice man a few years later. I bring this up to tell you to be realistic. If she is not 100% into R you donít have a marriage.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 8:31 AM, November 15th (Thursday)]

Atg100 posted 11/15/2018 13:35 PM

I donít trust my wife in all circumstances .
It would be a deal breaker if she would see the AP.
But the only way she could be in contact with him would be via text - and his number is not stored on her phone.
I have got her Facebook and email access.
We only have one nanny and she isnít booked this weekend.

She hardly had any alcohol in the last two weeks. The weekend is full of kids activities and book club .
I doubt she would make contact but I keep an eye on things.

She may have left mentally but there were a few little hopeful signs as well.
Maybe the weekend away is even a good thing for the relationship ?
I will keep my eyes open.

Bigheart2018 posted 11/15/2018 13:52 PM

Dear Atg100,

I agree with some of the posters; your wife has mentally left the marriage. You are in the marriage alone. It is my opinion; your wife will make arrangements to see the other man. I understand that your only desire is to see the good in your wife with the possibility of saving your marriage. You have an upward climb. I hope the best for you.

Bigheart

woundedbear posted 11/15/2018 15:17 PM

Atg100, your topic is a "Different Perspective", so I may offer you a different perspective than others may offer. I could write a book on this and others have but here is the shortened version:

In order for normal people to have an A, they have to jump through a ton of mental hoops. They have to make up a thousand justifications. They re-write the story of your relationship, they learn to say bad things either out-loud or in their heads about you and their life. They create a fantasy that makes it okay to have the A with an OM. Usually the OM is not at all like the fantasy they have created. When Dday hits, the state they are in rarely goes away like a popped bubble or explosion. It usually goes away slowly.

Like the slow fade that took them to the place that they could cheat, sometimes it is a slow fade coming back to a place where you can say to yourself that you can really R. Before that it is all a matter of steps. Painful, slow steps to help them get back to being a safe partner and a worthy candidate for R.

NC, and IC are minimums at the beginning. Transparency in where they are and what they are doing goes right along with that. But even after a few months, they may still be dealing with the justifications they created and the fantasy they made up in their heads. What you have to look for is positive forward progress. You have to hold her feet to the fire. File for divorce, so she knows that you will not tolerate backsliding, but as long as you see progress, you may be able to hold on that until you see how she does either way.

So far, what you have reported is progress and seems positive. Yes there are setbacks. But she seems to have chosen you over her AP, she is doing IC, she is starting to show that she is sorry.

You are a doctor, so look at it this way, she took a great deal of time to become sick, then she remained sick for a long time. D-day is not a miracle cure...but it can be a way to work on rehabilitation.

Look, I am no expert here, just a BH who has R'd and is doing pretty well. My fWW was a broken woman at d-day. I found out in discovery that there were more than one A in our past. And some had been PA (oral). She was sick and broken, and she hid it well until d-day. But that was just part of who she was, and the rest of her was worth the work if she could get better. Over time, she has healed. She is being treated for chronic depression, she has learned how her FOO issues and conflict avoidance has been a huge part of her re-writing of history.

We made it through the storm, and we are good. Better in many ways than we were before. Nobody can remove the scars, and pain I suffered, but those would exist whether I was with her or someone else or on my own.

I wish you strength. This is a long road, but you can make it and so can she.

Atg100 posted 11/15/2018 16:37 PM

Hi Woundedbear,
I appreciate your message. I could imagine that such a slow process would be correct for my wife and I would be happy to accept a slow road to recovery.
On the other hand , she has hit me with a couple of absolute heart braking surprises , which make me think that the other posters who warn that she has already left, are correct.
A lot of noticeable good small things have happened in the last two weeks, which may just be hopium or a subtle indication of positive change .
- we booked concert tickets for next weekend and have Christmas parties coming up. She has already said that she will not go to her own workplace Christmas function, as the AP will be there. She was the one discussing this .

On the other hand , when I left early this morning, to go to work and later on the flight, she looked like she couldnít care less. It was very early when I left, 6am , and she said she was tired .
But the other way around - I would have made an effort, even at 6am .

Anyway , a weekend away with friends in the other side of the country will be good for me .

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