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Buster123 posted 10/31/2018 19:29 PM

the counselor said that the relationship was either physical or that she still has strong feelings for the other guy.

Or both, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. I'm glad she's taking the reading seriously and "Not Just Friends" is one of the best books she can read, along with "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" (available for download on pdf).

"Iím sorry that I introduced that other person into our lifesĒ

Another opportunity for you to counter with: "Are you sorry enough to give me a full timeline of the A ?", after all our years together don't you think I deserve at least that ? All I want is the truth, you know the whole story of your A, I'm still in the dark, I want to know exactly what I need to forgive regardless of how awful it is". I would be pressing for that timeline at every chance, let her know in no uncertain terms she has to do this if there's to be a chance for R.

Iím sure the nuns wonít like it that there is a married contractor, lying about his own marital status, chasing married women.
Maybe time to use the rules in my favour.

If the A has gone underground, FULL EXPOSURE with HR (and with family and close friends) has proven to be the most effective way to kill an A, I agree with others, it's about time, remember to do it without warning, if they're still in contact she may warn him and he may make up a story about the "crazy jealous husband" (we've seen it here before and it's not that uncommon), then watch your WWs reaction, she's not going to like it but honestly, if she really wants to R, she should be helping you and testify in your favor, otherwise you know whose side she's taking and that's she's trying to protect OM and herself. EXPOSURE with HR will most likely accelerate her efforts to find another job.


[This message edited by Buster123 at 7:30 PM, October 31st (Wednesday)]

Buster123 posted 10/31/2018 19:48 PM

Short answer - itís not worth the effort, unless his actions affect his work or the hospitalí s reputation, there wonít be much I could do.
And of course he would answer with some lies and it will become a drawn out process.

I've seen it where having your attorney send them a letter has a bigger impact, see either way (attorney or not) they will conduct an investigation (this is protocol pretty much everywhere since they tried to avoid sexual harassment lawsuits very hard), they will more than likely interview OM and your WW, plus emails between them and even review surveillance video (all that could be subpoenaed by an attorney and they know it), this will at least make them VERY uncomfortable and they could even wind up throwing one another under the bus to save their own skin and reputation (killing the beauty of the A), don't you ever underestimate the power of FULL EXPOSURE, As thrive in the dark, if they end up getting rid of OM, he will also hate your WW and the A. The hospital industry is big and they have literally thousands of contractors to choose from, when they face these type of situations, the logical thing to do is to just simply find another contractor and avoid a costly lawsuit that can even compromise their reputation.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 7:50 PM, October 31st (Wednesday)]

Atg100 posted 10/31/2018 20:26 PM

Buster -
I talked to someone pretty high in HR about my chances of a succesful complaint : it wouldnít work.
They only act if it would affect his ability to work which it clearly doesnít.
And the negative repercussions for me also need to be considered .

I have put that thought away.
The medical profession in my city is actually not that big.
I think there would be not more than 2 degrees of separation between me and the surgeons he works with.
Karma will do this job for me and I will find out.

Buster123 posted 10/31/2018 21:21 PM

You seem to have dismissed the other rationale, of exposure, wether successful or not, it makes APs uncomfortable, sometimes they quit just because of the embarassment, many times the time co-workers already suspect or know about it, but I can understand it could have negative repercussions for you and your family, especially if you wind up in D.

Have you considered telling her you're thinking about filing a sexual harassment complaint against him (even if you don't follow through with it) just to see if she's willing to testify against him ? she doesn't know it wouldn't be successful and even if she did, you could tell her you don't care and that you're still willing to roll the dice just to see if she tries to protect OM at this point.

Keep in mind I'm only suggesting this because of the slow approach you've been taking to deal with your WW, even with the limited info you're WW has been able to admit and her reaction afterwards, that would have been enough for me to have file for D and start the process to get out of infidelity, I'm not against R (except for cases of serial cheaters and young Ms without children), I feel before D is final, the WS has more than enough time to show true remorse, full transparency, honesty and the hard work to become a safe partner and ultimately have a good chance to R successfully, and if that's the case only then should I (the BS) CONSIDER giving the gift of R, OR NOT, either way you get out of infidelity.

Cheating is a life altering decision, cheaters are never entitled to a 2nd chance, that doesn't mean the BS doesn't have the option to give such chance and try to R, but just one time is reason enough to D by itself regardless of other M problems and wether or not the WS is remorseful and does everything that is expected to try to save the M.

BTW have you talked to her tonight ?

Skadu posted 11/1/2018 12:12 PM

ATG100 HR Is not your friend, they protect the company not your marriage. They have a vested interest in shutting you up and it looks like it's working. Go with what the others have said, have a letter sent through a lawyer, if this goes into action then it becomes public record, and then they have to worry about their reputation. He have you a list of things that will force their hand, use it.

Atg100 posted 11/1/2018 14:00 PM

This person in HR is my friend ; so I wonít do it , itís not a good idea.


I had a discussion with my wife which just left me baffled.
- apparently itís easier to talk to her AP than to me, she can only be herself with him.

- but she realises that thatís part of a dream, that I come with the whole real life which drags everyone down.
ď how should I have time to find myself if Iím constantly busy with looking after you and the kids ď
- I asked how she thinks, I would fit into her future plans .
No answer .

I told her that I didnít think that she was someone who self sacrifices her self for the sake of others, having an affair is the most selfish thing anyone can do.

I told her that I donít like who have become and that I feel incredibly lonely .
ď I didnít realise that you feel that way ď

I have no idea how there is a way forward to be honest.

AFL1000 posted 11/1/2018 18:13 PM

OMG ATG another WTF moment ..2 in one week she must be trying for a record.

Well it appears that through absolutely no fault of yours or the counsellor, the counselling sessions are not having the desired effect and her head is still firmly stuck up her a**e.

Well time for No more Mr Nice Guy! You cannot live in this twilight zone any longer. SI members have said sometimes you just have to be prepared to lose the marriage in order to save it ...if that's really what you want.

You mentioned in an earlier post you were getting your lawyer to draw up the separation/asset distribution agreement. Has this been done?

I had a discussion with my wife which just left me baffled.
- apparently itís easier to talk to her AP than to me, she can only be herself with him.
I asked how she thinks, I would fit into her future plans .
No answer .

Well time for shock and awe. You want him you can have him. Tell her that regardless as to how dysfunctional his marriage is (based on what you told us about it) to the OBS you are, and always will be branded the OW!! Hope you can live with that.

Go write out every question you want her to answer and give it to her. The first being "Do you love me and are you willing to do everything to save this marriage. If not I know my path."

I am sure Stevesn, Buster and others will be onboard soon to give you their views.

We're all hanging in there with you mate.

Atg100 posted 11/1/2018 19:21 PM

Thanks AFL,
What I find so difficult is that she always generalises her affair as a problem with herself and our marriage .
In other words , itís not this AP, according to her, it could be anyone, with whom she feels she can be herself .
Whilst , if she is with me and the kids, she canít be herself.

I told her that I know enough nurses whose husband are also on a low income wage .
They work nights and weekends to be able to pay the mortgage and the kids are in after hours care every day.
Surely those people have a goal in mind and donít wonder if they can find themselves . Because they have to get up at 5am to go to work.
I must have put her into this golden cage , so she has too much time to think about her self fulfillment.
I said that I certainly donít feel very fulfilled at the moment, because I work hard and when I come home I find out my wife cheats with another guy to ď find herself ď.
She asked me if I think that she is selfish.
I told her that having the affair is the most fucking selfish thing she has ever done in her life.


This morning ( I left early )
Messages like ď I hope you have a nice day xxxĒ

This does my head in.

We booked a baby sitter a week ago to have a date night tonight, when we made that plan, things were looking a bit more positive .
We wanted to go indoor rock climbing , something we occasionally do and enjoy.
Maybe it would be a good thing to just exercise a little but together to take some of the pressure off.
But Iím actually not sure anymore tbh.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 8:29 PM, November 1st (Thursday)]

Atg100 posted 11/1/2018 22:17 PM

It remains confusing.
My wife works 3 days per week and occasionally more if asked.
Today she texts, that she was asked to work on Monday, but declined , as she knew her AP would be there. ( She can see from the type of operation if he would be there to provide equipment or not).

Yesterday she asked for some time by herself on Sunday; now she asks if we want to go on the beach on Sunday.

The bad news is that our counselor is in hospital with a potentially serious problem; I would hate if such a coincidence worsens things, but its likely as she - the counselor - was the only hope.

But the summary really is :
My wife send very confusing, mixed messages and is unable to have a mature conversation about our problems.

I know to anyone reading my posts, you guys must think that I either withhold information or it must look all completely crazy.
Especially as I made it clear I didn't want to be in limbo.
Well : it's this glimmer of hope, every text message which is slightly positive , makes me re-think my attitude to the problem.
I need to step back and look at the whole picture.

Stevesn posted 11/1/2018 22:34 PM

I know you are putting a lot of hope into the MC. I hope she gets better soon. Hope itís nothing terrible.

However, this is still between you and your WW. The IC can help. But you guys need to make it happen.

I got to be honest, sometimes I feel that BSís do things back assward. Itís totally understandable. But they threaten, beg and cajole the WS to do THE WORK and threaten to leave if they donít do it.

Then when the WS does nothing or very little, the BS threatens again telling the WS their going to leave if things do t improve. Itís a cycle that happens over and over again with the BS remaining in limbo, using Hope as a plan.

Instead, I am coning to the realization that BSís should do the opposite. They should tell the WS that their actions to go outside the M emotionallly and physically has ended the marriage.

Then Tell them that if they want you as a spouse they have to fix themselves in iC and when theyíve done that work and if they decide that the BS is truly the love of their life then show up at their door, and ask for another chance to really show them how much they love them. And come with a full plan to make the BS feel safe, loved, remorsed and valued.

Otherwise they can go be with the AP and you can move on. Separate legally and work toward D. Put together a parenting and financial plan and move on to your next great adventure in life.

You are trying to finesse her into working on R. When she doesnít get it or feel it, you try to show her what she should be doing.

I feel you need to let her figure it out herself. She may figure out she wants out of the M. Then so be it. But she just might start to see what she is losing. Let her figure out herself how to save it. Let her figure out how to make talking to you easy again.

Let her do the work. After all. Itís hers to do.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:38 PM, November 1st (Thursday)]

Atg100 posted 11/1/2018 22:51 PM

I am aware not to make empty threads:
I was ready to divorce her a couple of weeks ago and met with the lawyer; told her about it and all that.

We were working towards D.
Both of us agreed that we shouldn't rush the decision and give a slow approach with counseling a try.
I completely agree that she needs to figure it out herself.

But there will be only one more time when I mention divorce : when we are actually doing it. This cant be an empty thread.

steadychevy posted 11/2/2018 05:45 AM

Atg100, this reaction to little smidgeons of hope is pretty common. Here on SI hopium is noted pretty often. Hopium is addictive, too. You get this little whiff of it from time to time and it carries you through for a little while. And then you get another hit.

My WW finally left to separate after 4 years from DDay1. I kept telling her what she needed to do which she agreed to but didn't do or slowly ceased doing it. I told her what I needed from her and the same thing. The last year or so before separation it was pretty obvious to me that there wasn't going to be a possibility of attempting R. Even so, there were these little things that kept feeding the Hopium.

Some of us get more addicted to Hopium that others. I guess I was one of the more addicted. Even after separation little things gave me hope. And then something would occur that made it evident that the hope was not well founded.

All addictions are bad. Addicted to hope is the same. IMO, you need to see actual, real, fundamental change and effort to know there is progress that is necessary for you. These last few conversations you've related to us indicate to me (or are my interpretation) your WW doesn't get it is not forthcoming and does not have both feet in the marriage. My concern for you is that these little tidbits of hope will keep you hooked like they did me.

My best wishes are for you no matter if you R or D.

unspecified posted 11/2/2018 07:40 AM

I must have put her into this golden cage , so she has too much time to think about her self fulfillment.†

As a fellow Hopium addict, I've just read your thread. My WW is also spinning me in circles. Like yours, she worked maybe a few days per week; we had housekeeping periodically, kids had a semiregular nanny and were in early preschool. When she did work, she consistently chose nonprofit work that paid essentially nothing. If I brought up how it was hard being the sole earner, she would get extremely defensive, and to this day tells MCs that I "never supported her work."

All of which is to say, I feel for you and the "WTF" feeling this kind of blind self-absorption brings.

Buster123 posted 11/2/2018 12:39 PM

your WW doesn't get it is not forthcoming and does not have both feet in the marriage.

I agree with Steadychevy on this. For me it just boils down to the fact that your WW is still NOT a candidate for R at this point and honestly she has NOT been one since Dday, I also agree with the hopium comments but the main problem is your WW and how she does NOT get it, the way she talks feels like she admires OM, "he gets her and she can be "herself" with him", plus "she can't be herself with YOU and the kids, after all you have endured and all she's put you through during and after her A, that statement alone, for me and I'm sure many people would have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

After your latest update, I honestly suggest you file for D without warning, you need SHOCK and AWE, yes you're still in limbo, take the first step out of it by filing for D, it takes a long time, if by any chance or some miracle she comes around before it's final, shows true remorse, goes NC FOREVER with OM (and those who covered/enabled the A), gets tested for STDs, gives you a complete timeline of the A, agrees to full on demand access to ALL her electronic devices and passwords FOREVER, signs a postnup with an infidelity clause in your favor, finds a new job, goes to IC to fix herself and discover her "whys" and commits to doing the heavy lifting to restore the M in the long run, then and only then should you CONSIDER giving her the gift of R, or NOT. If D papers don't shock her back to reality, nothing will, either way you get out of infidelity.

Atg100 posted 11/2/2018 15:24 PM

Thanks everyone.
I got a big serve of hopium last night.
We went indoor rockclimbing, climbed for a solid two hours, had a drink in a pub. We then walked to the river and shared a coffee, talking about nothing too deep and just had fun.

I am wondering if she was herself ?

I know that this changes nothing in the overall picture, but I needed a day off.

The counselor is out of hospital and called my wife for an appointment next week Wednesday.

I will see how this weekend goes; I will take it one day at a time.
Thanks for your advice buster, Iím reading it and thinking about it. There is not much more nonsense I can take.

Atg100 posted 11/2/2018 17:17 PM

Unspecified :
Thanks for sharing your very similar experience.
At the beginning of it all, when her mother found out it about, she called my wife and called her a spoiled brat and completely ungrateful .
That made her think for a brief time.
Mind you, the only serious talk we really had last night was to a discussion if my wife should work more, especially weekends, when Iím not on.
And she quoted my remark, that I see plenty of nurses in my hospital doing the hard yards.

But it feels to me that whatever Iíd do, it would be wrong.
We have a cleaner just because I wanted her to have regular help with the housework , as Iím often not much of a help, due to time constraints . So, is the cleaner bad , because itís spoiles her or would not having a cleaner bad, as she may feel that she is lumped with all the domestic duties?

I would like to have a wife mature enough, to see that a cleaner can be a great help to have time for other things in life - not having an affair for example.
But maybe ď hard manual labour in a quarry ď would be best?

[This message edited by Atg100 at 5:18 PM, November 2nd (Friday)]

AFL1000 posted 11/2/2018 18:58 PM

Hi ATG

Glad to hear your counsellor is out of hospital and can continue the IC sessions with your wife.

It appears your MIL sees her daughter as a a bit of an 'entitled princess'. It's not what you did or didn't do in the relationship, WWs will use any and all excuses to start and justify an affair. Her working more is not the issue it's just moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. It's not going to change the situation.

The one observation I would make relates to your time with your wife rock climbing, going to the pub, getting coffee. You have complained about the mixed and contradictory messages you are getting from her as attested to by the recent WTF moments this week.

Are you not sending her the same mixed messages where in one breath you call her out on how utterly fucking selfish she is by emarking on the affair, the pain and loneliness it brings you and that divorce is still on the agenda and then have a 'truce period' and pseudo date night but I am sure go home to separate bedrooms.

To quote a chess analogy at the moment you and her are at stalemate. You have to break the deadlock.

Use Buster, Stevesn, steadychevy and unspecified's insights to break the stalemate.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 7:23 PM, November 2nd (Friday)]

Atg100 posted 11/2/2018 20:48 PM

Hi AFL
I totally get what you are saying.
I think of last night as a bit of a time out.
If every evening becomes a fight or discussion , I may forget why Iím still here. I have built up quite a bit of resentment for my wife. Seeing that we can also function as a couple was important for me; if yesterday would have been again a WTF moment, I would struggle to see what keeps me here.

There are a few true positives :
She is reading ď not just friends ď
She has another counseling session
She asked not to be in the same operating theatre as her AP next week - or so she tells me.

Without counseling next week being booked in, last night wouldnít have made any sense. It would have been a carpet sweeping exercise .
I see it as temporarily holding fire ...
About the difficult discussions:
I am not good at it.
I would prefer if we could have them in MC, in a joint session, none of our discussions left me with the impression that I was truly understood . Having the counsellor there, will be better

Stevesn posted 11/3/2018 07:04 AM

Hope the weekend is going well. Are you still going to go to the beach on Sunday? I assume itís with the kids. I worry about them and if they feel whatís happening between their parents.

I was glad she agreed to say no to working Monday with the AP. However I am concerned about her statement that itís easier talking to him than it is you.

When she says things like that I recommend asking what she thinks the plan should be to fix that. Put it on her to really think about it and come up with something.

Now that the IC is back when will you be doing a joint session? It will be difficult if you are only going to discuss things when you are in MC together as those sessions donít happen too frequently.

Honestly I think you are doing well, but again feel you are guiding her work too much. You have to give her the chance to be ALL IN on her own.

So with that in mind Iíd recommend asking for a few things. You decide if they are right for you;

- ask her to write you a letter explaining if she wants to stay in the marriage and if she does then explain why she does
- if she does, ask her to write another note telling you what she feels for you. Only you can then decide if the feelings she has are enough for you to stay in the relationship
- lastly, if she says she wants to be with you only and has realized you are the love for the rest of her life, then ask her for her plan to help you heal and rebuild the marriage. Her plan from her own mind. Not what you tell her she should be doing. But what she thinks she can and will do to help mend your broken heart, make you feel safe in the marriage, repair what was missing inside her that caused her to cheat and also ensure she is doing what she really wants when she says she only wants to be with you for the rest of your lives.

This is what ďthe workĒ is when people say truly remorseful Wayward spouses will willing do it to rebuild what they destroyed. Spending time together is good, but if you are only getting false promises and half truths when trying to R, the failure rate at getting through this and having a real relationship in a few years is close to 100%.

The only way to make sure she is ALL IN is to tell her something to the effect of ďI want to have a life with you, but only if your heart is in it. Otherwise I fear you will stray again.

You need to show me that you are mine and mine alone when it comes to love, romance and commitment. If thatís not the case, let me go. If it is, then show me how important I am to you buy working for it. Show me what our marriage means to you by making me feel you want it.

If thatís not the truth, donít fake it. Life is short and we both deserve happiness. I want to be with you, but only if that feeling is reciprocated. Please make it clear whether or not that is the caseĒ

Oh and one last thing. If your R is going to be successful, you need more time together, not less, so I hope they idea that she might work on the weekend when you are off has been decided against.

Right now her work focus should be to find a way to NEVER be in the same place as the OM ever again. If that means finding a new job, that must be part of her plan I mention above and if she truly wants you, it needs to be implemented sooner rather than later.

As always customize these thoughts into what works for you and in the timeframe that you need to do them.

Have a good rest of the weekend.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:05 AM, November 3rd (Saturday)]

Atg100 posted 11/4/2018 01:52 AM

Thanks for the long post and good advice.
My MIL rang me yesterday . She is still in shock and like me, doesnít recognise my wife anymore.
My wife had asked me not to talk to her mother, so I mostly listened. My MIL still canít believe that this would happen to us and what my wife is doing to our children potentially.
She said that she would understand if I would divorce my wife but asked me to stay strong.
One thing which she said however made me think-
My wife, even as a teenager and young woman was apparently never able to talk about her own feelings , and when she had done something wrong would withdraw.
I donít quite get this - my wife had no problem telling me how wonderful the time with the AP was and how she doesnít love me.
If she can dish out all the bad stuff - why not also tell me about a change of heart or express her wish to reconcile .
Thatís why I think the idea of a letter is actually quite good.

I wrote yesterday that Iím not good at those difficult discussion . I think my wife is not good as them, because I can tell her exactly what I want.

This weekend was good.
Iím very busy with the kids - yesterday my boy had a judo competition in the morning , I went with my daughter and son swimming in the afternoon and then to a skate park ( kids have this stamina). We went to the beach this morning.
My wife joined us for the skate park and then we had a casual dinner at a cafe, overlooking the cliffs and the river here in Brisbane. It was a perfect family evening and everyone was happy. I asked myself ď and my wife thinks there is something better out there ? Is she not herself at the moment ?Ē
My wife could see that I had a dark cloud on my mind and she asked if everything was ok.
ď have I done something wrong again?Ē
I couldnít talk to her in that moment.
I have these flashbacks if you like. The thought of her and the AP makes me sick in the stomach.
This will need to be discussed , in the proper setting.
My wife meanwhile tries to be the perfect housewife.
Preparing healthy stuff for the kidís lunchboxes , cleaning the house and appears to be happy .
She decided to do a beginnerís triathlon and talks about the short term future as if there are no doubts whatsoever.
Iím pleased that she sets herself a goal which will give her a sense of achievement, other than hoping to get this out of an affair. I would be proud if she manages this - she is an excellent swimmer and runner but has never cycled much.
This may be a good thing.
She has got IC this week and we will have MC the week after.
The counselor wants to discuss her disproportionate response to my question from Monday. My counselor has asked me for a list of things I need to happen, to rebuild trust , which I have given her .
But like I said at the beginning : the letter is an excellent idea. I will ask her for such letter after her counselling session on Wednesday .

[This message edited by Atg100 at 1:57 AM, November 4th (Sunday)]

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