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Different perspective

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Marz posted 10/28/2018 18:47 PM

Her words man nothing.

Odd on your anniversary you had to do it all. She planned nothing. Did you ever get a card?

Again actions versus words.

Buster123 posted 10/28/2018 19:09 PM

She told me that the counselor advised her to read “ Not just friends “ which I have also read. I thought it’s excellent .
My wife said that she would be prepared to “jump through hoops” to regain my trust.
I said that I am at the moment very suspicious of everything she does.

Very good book, I had my WW read it, it was a tough read for her but she later understood and agreed with pretty much everything the book said. Now if your WW is really prepared to "jump through hoops" to regain your trust, why not jump through one of the biggest ones TODAY, and quit her job and go NC FOREVER with OM ? if she refuses, well that's not a hoop she's willing to jump through, and honestly if that's the case you might as well pull the plug just for that. Remember if they're still in contact the A will continue or will resume eventually.

I understand why you guys suggest I should be more forceful now. This hasn’t worked in the past. The only intervention which had any positive influence , is the counselor .
We both go to IC this week, next week will be a joined session.
- when we talk about rebuilding trust I will require
A full time line
Clarification about EA / PA - I have my doubts .

NC

But I do that in a prepared manner under the supervision of the counselor .

You basically don't know much about the A and it seems your WW is still not willing to be honest and give YOU the most basic details about it, yet you're still talking about "rebuilding trust" when said trust (if any left) it's STILL being destroyed, your WW is still in ACTIVE A mode if she still has not volunteered a FULL timeline of the A, at this point you really don't even know if it's still ongoing which will make IC/MC a waste of time and money, tell her you need to know all the details, that if you're to forgive her you need to know what you're forgiving in order for R efforts to have a chance at success.

I would press her on the written timeline of the A (first a summary with the basics and a longer version with full details) in calm way TODAY, make her feel the pressure and the importance and urgency of honesty if there's any chance at R at all, prepare your self so that you don't lose control, write the questions before hand, prepare to counter possible wayward answers in a calm and civil way and watch her reaction, if you feel stuck in a question (but don't give up easily), move on to the next and leave it for the joint session.

Atg100 posted 10/28/2018 19:19 PM

Thanks buster.
I agree that there is the need for honesty , I agree 100%.
I just don’t agree that it’s so urgent that I need to push this matter before she has read the book and outside a counselling session.

I think my chance for an honest answer is higher in an environment which is a little more controlled, with an experienced counsellor guiding the session.
I anticipate that this joined session will be next week.

I also think that my wife’s thought process is very slow.
Right now , I believe that she very slowly gets it.
Why not wait for her to read “ not just friends” ?
Why not wait for the counselor to have another IC session with her? This counselor is very much on the same wavelength with what you and other experienced members from SI have been telling me. This counselor seems to be the only one which has managed to change my wife from “complete fog” to “ slight fog edit : moderate fog”
That’s why I’m waiting.
I want all the answers , for sure !

[This message edited by Atg100 at 7:33 PM, October 28th (Sunday)]

Buster123 posted 10/29/2018 00:21 AM

I think she's had plenty of time after D day to come clean if she was truly remorseful (or somewhat remorseful) and wanted another chance to R, don't you think ? why not ask for a written timeline of the A TODAY, what's her excuse ?, she won't have the time to do that during the joint session. Still want to wait ? at least have her agree to have a summary of it ready for the session (with all the most important details) in a sealed envelope (of course the full version would be better), if she's not willing to at least give you that at this point, what are you really doing here ? a successful R is NOT possible without honesty and transparency, if she's not willing to do it, she's NOT remorseful at all and therefore not a candidate for R, not by a long shot.

I asked to see all their Facebook messages to which she said” if you see them, you divorce me straight away”
This was on D day.
I felt that there would be only pain for me in those messages, so I didn’t want to see them.
Facebook stores even deleted messages in the archive , so I could ask her to download all of it.

Remember this ? I think this is a must for you to VERIFY her story, remember CHEATERS LIE, your WW is a proven cheater and a liar, if she agrees to show you this, then that's a sign she's putting a real effort to being honest and transparent, on the other hand if she's not willing to show you that, well then she still wants to hide things from you, therefore NOT being honest, and/or remorseful. Don't want to see all the gory details ?, have a trusted friend or relative read it and give you a sanitized but truthful version of it.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 12:25 AM, October 29th (Monday)]

Atg100 posted 10/29/2018 00:46 AM

It’s interesting that you mention the Facebook messages.
I was thinking of that very comment yesterday myself.
Unfortunately , I was incorrect - once deleted, they can not be found again, even with the archive feature.

So, when asking her for the time line, I will mention this quote.

Yes, she is a liar and a cheat.
It took her 2 months to even admit that she had an affair and stop blame shifting and stop all the “ just a friend” bullshit.

I think that this was in large part because she was too ashamed to admit it to herself !

My counselor said “ I need to get your wife’s head out of the sand “

You seem to think that I will let her get away with her lies- no, I won’t. I don’t trust her , I think there has been a lot of lying and blame shifting and true remorse needs to come.
I just think, that reading the book, some work in IC will prepare the grounds for the tough questions, that’s all.
I trust the counselor , as I said. I trust the process, if this doesn’t work, then I can turn around and know, that I have absolutely done everything .

I am just adding one more thought:
The way I approach it gives me control.
I know exactly when I will ask her about the details I require.
Unless we have a discussion before the next MC, which will lead to those questions, I am in control of the situation.
I have changed my mindset a lot.
This crazy chaos which was going on , now has a pretty straight line ahead . So, lif that takes a few more weeks, so be it.


[This message edited by Atg100 at 2:20 AM, October 29th (Monday)]

Nowandthen posted 10/29/2018 15:24 PM

Hi ATG, and just wanted to say that I’ve read your whole thread through and feel your pain. I think you are doing really well in coping with the stress of this while holding down a demanding job. I have nothing to add to the advice you’ve already had, but wanted to thank you for the honest sharing of your painful journey. Sending you virtual hugs and best wishes.

Buster123 posted 10/29/2018 16:18 PM

Ok, let's see how it plays out before and after the MC meeting, good luck.

Stevesn posted 10/29/2018 18:04 PM

Yes. Let’s see how the session goes. The MC seems good.

ATG, if she shows signs of coming around to showing she actually cares about you and what she did, then I recommend you let your WW know (in front of the MC so she knows too) that when you finally see her come to you with a full confession of her A and a real plan to repair the marriage, make you feel safe and help you heal then you will consider yourself working on R. Not a moment before that.

It has to be a real plan with substance. It has to be a real confession of everything that happened between them. It has to show you that you are the man she wants for the rest of your life and how she wants to show you that for decades to come.

Until that moment occurs I don’t think you have anything to work with. I honestly think you’d be wasting your time. You’d be building a false family.

So just be careful and think long and hard what she’s have to do to make you feel happy again in your marriage in the coming years. And then ask for it.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:05 PM, October 29th (Monday)]

The1stWife posted 10/29/2018 20:53 PM

I think I win hands down in the “Cheater Who Refuses to Admit Its an Affair” category.

My H.

4 year long EA. Never admitted it - but I knew it all along.

15 years later he admitted to OW#2. OW#2 told me he admitted it.

He never thought I’d find out that he knew it was wrong all those years.

Atg100 posted 10/29/2018 21:51 PM

Thank you everybody.
I think I was lucky that I found this counsellor.
She didn't come recommended, I just read her bio on the internet.
I read the other threads here, where people feel like they are wasting their time with the counsellor.


1st wife - the moment where my wife first admitted that she had an affair, was a big one.
It was a "quantum leap" - away with all this 'just friends bullshit' which drove me insane.

Stevesn - your advice is very good. If I want to spend the rest of my life with my WW, then there has to be a strong sign from her that she has recognised the problem and that she wants to put the had work in.

We didn't have any serious conversations this morning.
She now has a copy of " not just friends"
The AP is still blocked on her facebook, his number is not on her mobile, she does not have snapchat or vault apps.

I know what I am going to tell her when asking for full details.
I read Joseph's letter in the healing library and found it very useful.

I will make it "easy" for her and tell her what I know in that conversation - which is actually much more than I have let her know so far.
I will discuss this tomorrow with my counsellor in my IC.
I keep posting

[This message edited by Atg100 at 10:14 PM, October 29th (Monday)]

AFL1000 posted 10/30/2018 01:04 AM

Hey ATG

For those of us who have followed your journey since you started to post on SI in early September we are all impressed with how well you have handled the shit sandwich you have been dealt.

You have listened to members and acted (or not acted) as you saw appropriate based on the advice they have provided. You have also been very fortunate to find a counsellor to help navigate you through the infidelity maze. We have many members on SI who have vented how useless and ineffective their counsellors have been so it's very pleasing to hear stories of the positive benefits a good counsellor can provide for both the BS in helping to heal from the affair and the WS in the why's of their betrayal.

You stated that "you know much more [about the affair] than you have let her know so far". Hopefully your wife will give a full confession of her own volition to show you she is totally committed to you, and only you, and the marriage.

Continue to move forward with the help of your counsellor.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 1:06 AM, October 30th (Tuesday)]

Buster123 posted 10/30/2018 01:45 AM

I will make it "easy" for her and tell her what I know in that conversation - which is actually much more than I have let her know so far.

Don't tell her how much you know before hand, let her talk first, cheaters only admit to what you can prove or know, I can almost guarantee you she will still try to minimize the A and TT, after she talks insist on a FULL timeline of the A, then compare it with what you know and counter to get more info, tell her to volunteer proof (if any)of what she's saying, like receipts, debit card/credit card transactions of places they went or gifts, etc., if you're still not convinced, demand she takes a polygraph, she probably will agree thinking you won't go through with it, then schedule it on a day she's off and only tell her when you get to the parking lot of the place, you may get the famous "parking lot confession", still make her go through with it.

Atg100 posted 10/30/2018 06:58 AM

AFL - this is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
But I am mich more calm now, not this crying mess anymore.
Buster - I admire your strength and resolve.
I still try to figure it out slowly and logically, but you certainly are right. We are not the victim here, we have the right to demand answers. I will keep you in mind when it comes to discussing the time line.
The more I think about it - this affair must have been physical :
8 months plus duration.
Accordion to my WW , physical boundaries were discussed “ he wanted more but I told him not to touch me “

And - when my wife drunk texted him 3 weeks ago in the pub, he was there , at midnight in a pub in the middle of a city.
Why would a guy like him, be available at that time?
It can only be the promise of sex, he did not come to have a conversation.

This all has to be discussed .

steadychevy posted 10/30/2018 07:58 AM

Atg, I don't remember if the book "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J McDonald was recommended for your WW to read. If it hasn't been recommended I highly do so now. I didn't go back and read through the thread if it was recommended previously. It's a thin book and a quick read but should be read and re-read. You should read it also.

The advise given by Buster is right on. My advise, too, is to not reveal to much about what you know. Compare what she says with what you know. You can use what you know to ask probing questions and see how she answers. Just don't dump it all out there because, IMO, it will be used to her advantage.

Stevesn posted 10/30/2018 12:04 PM

I do agree with not telling her what you know already.

When the time comes just ask for a full timeline.

Then sit with her and Ask her pointed questions about the timeline. Some of that can be based on what you already know and you see she left out.

On another note:: Did the kids mention anything funny going on during the weekend camping like anyone they didn’t know showing up? World her friend cover for her? Is it the same friend from the club when she drunk texted? Do you communicate with those friends?

Atg100 posted 10/30/2018 14:50 PM

Well, I didn’t stick to my plan.
I asked her last night if the affair was physical.
Reaction:
Tears, no eye contact , crying.
For a while she looked like she wanted to say something, then:
“Just a friend”
“ he wanted more , but I said , I just wanted to talk, and he was happy with that”
“ 3 weeks ago, he met me in the pub, because he was concerned for me , that I was so drunk”

More crying. Now she is very angry, and again, we are not talking or making eye contact.
I don’t even need to ask what the verdict on such behaviour is.

This is not the mature response of someone who wants to heal.

steadychevy posted 10/30/2018 15:45 PM

Not the reaction of someone telling the truth, IMO.

Atg100 posted 10/30/2018 16:12 PM

No she looked as if she was carrying a heavy burden.
This morning she tried an apology.
“ I try so hard to forget the other person, but your question stirred everything up again.”

So just a sprinkle of blame shifting for good measure .
I wouldn’t be surprised if I get a “ confession “ in the next few days, but I won’t hold my breath.

Buster123 posted 10/30/2018 17:38 PM

I think she's feeling the weight of the guilt, the way she reacted by not having eye contact and crying speaks volumes, it's a good time now to keep pushing for a confession, tell her whatever the answer you have already considered the worst and you still haven't pulled the plug, that you weren't born yesterday and know it's next to impossible for an 8 month A between 2 people who have strong feelings not to be physical, not even a kiss, tell her that's what adults do, tell her men don't stay in a hidden relationship risking their own M just to hold hands with someone, tell her that whatever her answer is, you won't make a radical decision and that you will wait at least 90 days to see if R is possible and that more lies about it, it's what would ultimately end the M, tell her after so many years she owes you at least that, the truth, that you would consider giving R a try, but that in order for you to even try to forgive her you need to know exactly what you're forgiving.

Also maybe I missed it somewhere but do you now have full on demand access to ALL her electronic devices, email accounts and passwords ? Remember there's no such a thing as "privacy" in a M other than toilet time, have you try Dr Fone or Enigma to try to recover some of her deleted texts ?

[This message edited by Buster123 at 5:39 PM, October 30th (Tuesday)]

Atg100 posted 10/30/2018 18:02 PM

I thought you would be proud that I channeled my inner “ buster “
The denial was pretty strong, I thought her head went firmly back into the sand , the fog intensified ....

I have got counselling today, she has got counselling tomorrow.
I’ll let this sit with her for a couple of days, to see if she comes up with a mature response.

Again what she offered as an excuse
“ he said to me that we could take this further to a physical affair or just talk, it was up to me “
Who and where and when would ever have such a discussion ?
I just can’t imagine any situation where a guy would say anything like that , unless of course he is playing the long game and hopes that she will decide for him?
But when do you talk like that with a friend after work???
That is so abnormal, I just need to focus again on the fact that I am not mad.

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