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Atg100 posted 10/25/2018 14:25 PM

It was actually our weddding anniversary yesterday .
I was unsure what to do - nothing and ignoring it, would be odd.
Fine dining, silver service - similarly wrong.
I got a colleague to cover me for a couple of hours , organised the nanny and took her to her favourite Thai restaurant. Not classy but very nice food. She didnít drink ( neither did I ) and we had a nice evening.
We talked a little bit about counselling ď I hate it but Iím doing it for your ď she said.
So it could have all been nice , but I just couldnít help thinking that there was a crack in our relationship.
Yesterday was of course a very significant day, which would have amplified my negative feelings.
But I am wondering if that negative feeling will go away?

Stevesn posted 10/25/2018 16:38 PM

Iím actually not sure I understand what you are saying. Of course thereís a crack in your relationship. Your wife has professed she has feelings for another man and to some unknown extent has acted on them.

That is a sever crack and in reality, she has to want to repair it. She has to want to fix it with every fiber of her being in order to achieve R some day down the road.

She should be doing IC to fix what is broken IN HER. She should be doing this for herself, because she loves you. She shouldnít be doing it just because you want her to. If itís not what she wants, then itís not going to work.

I hope she can get there. But to me, sheís doing it because sheís being told to do so. Until she starts feeling empathy for her wounded spouse, that she feels the pain she caused you, she wonít be able to achieve what you need.

Here are some things Iíve collected that reflect what a truly Remorseful spouse exhibits. How much of this do you see in your WW?

- She would be inconsolable with the thought of how she was the cause of so much pain to the person she loves most in the world.

- she would be begging to know what she could do to make it right.

- for you she would want to let everyone know it was her that screwed up, not you.

- she would want to read books on how to support her BS. She proactively orders them and starts reading. She actively discussed what she is reading

- she would be in IC as much as possible to figure out what went wrong with her and how she could do this to the person she loves most in the world. She proactively schedules this for herself and also proactively asks her therapist for IC recommendations for you to help you deal with the pain she has caused.

- she would feel your pain more than her own and put your happiness ahead of hers.

- she would follow your lead when it comes to intimacy, trying to figure out what you need to feel connected again

- she will gladly answer your questions at any time day or night with no objections

- she would write you a letter of apology highlighting how she must have made you feel

- she would focus most on your well being, ignoring her own

- she would realize what the OM really is and start being sick at the thought of him/her. She would start calling him/her names like POS for how he helped her destroy her life.

- They show remorse thru actions, not words. Examples of this could be that they proactively prepared a written timeline of what happened and are as thorough and factual as they can be.

- Other examples are: They book a polygraph when you are available to attend. And they buy a GPS tracker for their car so they can give you peace of mind. They sell something of value to only them to pay for these things so the cost doesn't come from your joint funds (e.g. Collectibles or jewelry or exercise equipment).

If they are only showing Regret and not Remorse then they will only be giving you words, not actions: e.g. "I'm so sorry. But you can trust me now. I promise you I've told you the whole truth: e.g. "You can trust me now. I love you. It didn't mean anything. I know I messed up - do you forgive me? I was so stupid, but I've learned from my mistakes. It's in the past now and we can move forward. I love you more now than I ever have. I promise it will never happen again, can we move on?"

Finally. THE EFFORT PUT INTO RECONCILIATION! If the betrayer doesn't work harder at repairing the relationship than they did to damage it, it isn't going to work no matter if you stay together or not. They need to be working harder at R than you are.

Atg100 posted 10/25/2018 16:57 PM

You put it I much better words than I have.
Of course I realise there is a massive crack .
I felt quite sad about it all , given the significance of our anniversary . She woke me up this morning and said ď 5 years ago I married the most amazing guy ď
So thatís something.
But Iím cynical and question everything she says or does.
So my question was more about my cynism.
This will only go away if she puts the work in.
As I said above - the counsellor said that at the moment she is still in that self protective mode.
- she got caught cheating
- she cheated with a predator, not some single guy. There were a wife and a child on the other side. She will be ashamed that she fell for such an asshole.

She does everything to deflect that shame at the moment.
Until she accepts this fully as her error and owns it, the true remorse will not happen.

As she said , she doesnít like going to counselling , because itís tough and she canít carpet sweep. She actually has to talk.
Itís funny in a way , we talked about our counselling sessions .
When I am there , either the counselor or myself constantly talk. Sometimes we laugh. There is never silence.
My wife told me that what she hates most is when the counselor just sits there, looks at her and waits for my wife to answer.
As I said, I have great trust in the counselor. She is very experienced and the speed at which she proceeds is the right one for my wife; not for me: I have to sit back and wait a bit.
But I trust the process and trust that remorse will happen.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 5:01 PM, October 25th (Thursday)]

steadychevy posted 10/25/2018 18:21 PM

I'm just jumping in to support what Stevesn said. She doesn't like it but she's doing it for you. This won't work. She needs to be doing it for herself because she knows she has deep problems she needs to address to just be a better person. If she's doing it to save her marriage it won't work. She will soon resent it and the resentment will grow. IMO, your WW is in the regret stage, Atg100. She regrets she was caught and she regrets the consequences thus far. I told my WW way more than once she isn't sorry about what she did. She's sorry she got caught. This is the same.

Atg100 posted 10/25/2018 18:47 PM

Iím not sure at what stage she is ; I think neither does she.
I think she is mostly ashamed, rather than regretful.

There are a few good signs : she told me how much she enjoyed the dinner - and in particular as it was so simple .
She is going to counselling and the counsellor doesnít seem to think that she is just going through the motions.

ď I am doing it for you ď can mean two things
: ď Iím going to counselling because I have to ď
Or
ď Iím going to counselling because I want to be with you ď
Now , we here on SI, myself included, are all suspicious that it would be the first. I should have asked to clarify maybe.

But I mentioned that I always feel better after an counselling session , and she confirmed that she felt that way too.

So thanks for your warnings , I will watch and wait for now

AFL1000 posted 10/25/2018 22:03 PM

Hey ATG

I would just like to take you back to the day of your wedding anniversary. We know what you did by taking your wife to her favourite Thai restaurant but what did your wife do for you? Did she acknowledge the day in any way before your went out for dinner?

At dinner what was her body language like? I believe a person's body language tells us a lot about a persons feelings and emotions that they are unwilling to express in words. Did she show any signs of affection or engage in any physical contact with you such a holding hands both at the restaurant or at home?

Her comment to you about her participation in the counselling sessions ďI hate it but Iím doing it for you" still shows she is a long way off understanding that the IC is for HER to work through why she had the affair with the POSOM given this morning she said to you ď5 years ago I married the most amazing guyď. But I can understand you being cynical. As steadychevy stated "...if she's doing it for you. This won't work. She needs to be doing it for herself.."

Stevesn in his inimitable style has provided you with a long list of the actions that a truly remorseful WW should exhibit but it's a daunting list when laid out in front of you.

Hopefully at today's counselling session your wife will take further steps towards recognising her issues and why she would want to go to the arms of another man. I also hope that the answers you are seeking about the 5 months gap in your reconstruction of the affair will come out during the counselling sessions. Without it reconciliation is not possible.

Continue to have faith in your counsellor and the direction she is leading your wife.

Atg100 posted 10/25/2018 22:40 PM

My wife hadnít planned anything for the anniversary.
We briefly talked about going out next week, as I was on call.
It was only when a colleague offered to cover me that I was able to go last night.

She made effort with her appearance .
In particular , she wore an earring and bracelet combination I bought her when our son was born.
I know that she likes the bracelet but not so much the earrings.
She prefers short earrings and those are longer. I think this was only the second time she wore them .


The body language was good; neither of us looked at the phone, we enjoyed our conversation although it was nothing too deep apart from talking about counselling.

Both of us had to get up early this morning for work, so we didnít have a late night, it was fairly easy going.

I take the earrings as a good sign .

Stevesn posted 10/25/2018 22:50 PM

Thanks for the details. Yes some of those are encouraging signs. Not showing remorse but at least putting in an effort.

Also I want to tell you that even though I and others might post doom and gloom (but realistic) thoughts l, I think youíre doing a great job maneuvering through this swamp of betrayal.

As I stated earlier I just donít want to see you settle for a marriage les than you deserve where sheís staying out of duty instead of desire and love.

Iím confident now that you have the same thought in your head and that makes me feel calmer about it.

Late here. Good night from the states.

Atg100 posted 10/25/2018 23:00 PM

Thanks for checking in before bed time.
Your realistic advice keeps me grounded.
It is much appreciated and has given me excellent guidance in those crazy times!
Thank you all for helping out a stranger on the internet ; I am convinced I would be worse off without your advice .

Atg100 posted 10/26/2018 20:00 PM

My wife and kids are away at the campground ; the kids are having a marvellous time.
I think about the time line of the affair and feel physically nauseated when trying to fill the gaps in my knowledge .
Iím at work, and work is a welcome distraction.

The feelings I have now just reinforce what has been said in previous posts:
This will not go away, carpet sweeping is not an option.
Unless my wife shifts into a true recovery mode, I canít see a long term future.
Maybe it would have been better if she had not gone away for the weekend.
Then again, the kids are having a much better time camping than being at home.

AFL1000 posted 10/26/2018 22:51 PM

Hi ATG

Your wife had her weekly session with your counsellor yesterday. What was her mood like after the session? Did you and her discuss what was addressed at the session?

I can sense your frustration meter has peaked in the red zone. It is not for you to try and fill in the gaps in the timeline that is her job and she has to do it willingly and with complete honesty. For your own mental health you cannot remain in this limbo much longer.

Have you broached with your wife the need for a timeline of the affair to help with your healing and how it will affect any possible reconciliation? Have you discussed with your counsellor the need for a timeline? Some members suggest an initial timeline that is PG rated and only after ask for the X/R rated version if that's the path you need take. Some BSs want all the sordid details straight up. I guess it depends on just how much the BS needs to know and can handle emotionally.

I am personally happy that your wife is spending time with the kids. I think in a previous post you noted that she said she wanted some time 'to reconnect with the children'.

With the affair and her drinking she has not only taken time away from you but also the kids. Even though your kids are young I am sure they sense the tension in the home and wonder why Mum and Dad are in different bedrooms! This camping trip may have a beneficial effect in helping your wife sort through her thought processes. "Look at what you are going to lose; a husband and you will be a part-time Mum if reconciliation is not the outcome"

I'm sure the kids will have a lot to tell you about what they did on the camping trip when they get home. Enjoy it.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 12:00 AM, October 27th (Saturday)]

Atg100 posted 10/27/2018 07:46 AM

My wife went straight after counselling to pick up the kids. She only said that counselling was good.
As her female friend is with her, I didnít have the chance to talk to her on the phone about details.
The kids love it, and that is much better than one of those weekends when Iím busy with work.

Yes I mentioned the gap in the timeline to the counselor . She doesnít believe that all details will be discussed, a 5 months gap needs to be explained however.
I would like to know not so much what happened - but wether my wife was present or absent in our relationship .
I know it was the latter, but I want to say this to my wife.
2018 was therefor a waste of our relationship , as during all our time together, there was always the AP on her mind as well. That puts all moments which I hold special now under a cloud. Nothing appears real anymore.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 8:16 AM, October 27th (Saturday)]

Atg100 posted 10/28/2018 05:40 AM

Now my wife and kids are back.
I haven't had much sleep since Friday and have been super busy at work.
I asked her how counseling was - she said "fine- the counselor suggested one more individual session and the we should return together"
She is also considering taking German classes apparently - I grew up in Germany but moved here when I was still fairly young. I have however made the effort to talk to my kids mostly in German; it doesn't always work, but they both have good understanding of German , they don't speak it very well.
Anyway my wife had talked about taking lessons for the last 5 years and never done anything about. So I would take it as a good sign if she actually does that.
The downside for today is : I checked her browsing history and she was looking at downloading snapchat.
She hasn't got it.
But the question of course is : Who would she like to snapchat with? I don't have that app.
Mind you , just looking at the website doesn't make her guilty. I don't want to give away my sources, telling her that I know what she was looking at.


Stevesn posted 10/28/2018 07:30 AM

Hi ATG

I think you two should have a time to check in on your marriage 2-3 times a week.

You could sit down when the kids are at activities or asleep and talk about how you are each doing and also discuss what you each want. Mostly Iíd ask her to talk about where she is and just listen to whether or not she is headed in the right direction.

Iíd ask her about contact with they AP, and what her plans are for going full NC, meaning getting away from him via quitting her job. At some point she must do this if you are going to start truly healing. Iíd be honest with her about this. Any work done while she can still communicate with him any day is not really worth anything.

And you can honestly talk about your feelings for each other and what your hopes are for your future together (or apart).

By the way, if you start MC together, she needs to first be NC with the POSOM. otherwise I wouldnít agree to it. Also I would require she continue her own sessions alone. Sheís not fixed after just a few solo sessions. She needs years of therapy with the MC or a separate IC to ensure she wonít do this again with the same AP or another.

As many of us stated already, she still doesnít sound remorseful for how she has hurt you. She sounds like she is staying with you as plan B. Iím still not convinced she isnít pining away for the AP. She doesnít sound like she sees him as a POS who is trying to steal her M away.

Stay skeptical and let her know that you are.

As for SNAPCHAT, an app that lets her send message and then instantly erases them is a dealbreaker to me.

Once you have confirmed she installed it I would loosely try to ďcatchĒ her when she is using it. Eg: if you enter a room and she quickly closes and hide her phone you can freak out and start screaming ďwait, is that Snapchat I saw you using?!?! Are you FREAKINí (or stronger language) kidding me?!? You ask me to try and reconcile and you load an app that deletes messages? Hand me your phone unlocked right now or else Iím done with trying to repair anything with you. Tell me right now who you are communicating with and if youíre not 100% honest we are done. ď

Then see what she does. My friend if sheís actively trying to find a way to communicate with the POS or other men she may have met while camping or somewhere else than I have little hope for lifetime happiness for you in this relationship.

So if she shows you her list of Snapchat friends and any remaining messages then maybe it was honestly just something a female friend told her about. But she should show you immediately and without hesitation.

And then she should delete the app and apologize for not thinking about the ramifications of using such a tool.

My friend you are doing very well. Keep it up and dont let up. Nows the time to ramp up the communication.

Take care and keep posting.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:33 AM, October 28th (Sunday)]

AFL1000 posted 10/28/2018 08:17 AM

Hi ATG

Before I hit bed I asked in my post of 21/10 if you were checking if your wife was downloading apps beloved of cheaters. I'm glad you are still prudently checking phones and browsing history.

This is a red flag. Given what you have told us about the POSOM and your and our uncertainty if your wife is NC with him he may have encouraged her to use SnapChat. I am sure he has used this or similar apps before with other women as I suspect your wife is not the only woman he has/is having affairs with given the lies he's told your wife and other women about his marital status.

We can give your wife the benefit of the doubt in that she hasn't actually downloaded it yet but we would encourage you to continue your judicious monitoring. How well versed is your wife in using other social media apps other than Facebook?

We all hope that this comes to nothing and that she may have a legitimate reason for wanting to use the app if she actually downloads it.

Good night.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 8:21 AM, October 28th (Sunday)]

Marz posted 10/28/2018 08:32 AM

The downside for today is : I checked her browsing history and she was looking at downloading snapchat.
She hasn't got it.

It's a cheater app. Untraceable like normal texting.

Not a good sign under the circumstances.

Time will tell.

steadychevy posted 10/28/2018 08:37 AM

I disagree, Atg100, that just looking at the website doesn't make her guilty. There must be some reason she was looking. She never covered it with you. Snapchat is about secrecy, IMO. For what purpose would she be interested in an app that deletes messages? As you indicated, you're not on snapchat.

As AFL and Stevesn have said just above, this doesn't appear to be the actions of someone remorseful and desperately wanting to rebuild her marriage and the trust of her husband. Very suspicious.

NoOptTo posted 10/28/2018 11:48 AM

AtG, look to find if your wife has any vault apps that can hide cheater apps. Dont give her the ability to side step you in this issue. Its up to her to make you feel safe. If she can't, then R has no chance. NC must be enforced before you two begin MC. Stand firm with keeping boundaries for her. If she respects you, she will follow them. If she is selfish, she will continue to try and reconnect with POSOM.

Buster123 posted 10/28/2018 16:33 PM

Why don't you tell her to quit her job TODAY, if she wants to have a chance to R ? she created this, she took you for a fool for a long time, this is a consequence of her A and huge betrayal, tell her NC is paramount, that going to MC/IC while still being in contact with OM is useless and a waste of time and money, if she refuses, file for D the next day and have her served at work, if by any chance before it's final (it takes months and sometimes years) she quits her job, shows TRUE remorse, commits to NC FOREVER with OM, agrees to give you full on demand access to all her electronic devices, gets tested for STD's and signs a postnup with an infidelity clause in your favor, may then and only then you should CONSIDER giving her yet another chance (OR NOT), either way you get out of infidelity.

Once you file, she'll show her true colors again and see if she's willing to do the heavy lifting to restore the M or if she was just trying to buy more time to make a decision between OM and you.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 4:36 PM, October 28th (Sunday)]

Atg100 posted 10/28/2018 18:30 PM

Since my last post we had another discussion.
She told me that the counselor advised her to read ď Not just friends ď which I have also read. I thought itís excellent .
My wife said that she would be prepared to ďjump through hoopsĒ to regain my trust.
I said that I am at the moment very suspicious of everything she does.
As a more general example I told her that it never bothered me in the past, that she wouldnít wear her wedding rings when she went to work. - she is a nurse in the operating theatre and canít wear jewellery at all. Things get stolen in theatre change rooms all the time . I said that whilst I logically understand why she is doing it, I now immediately interpret this in a different light. She said not much about it, but I could see it made her think.

I understand why you guys suggest I should be more forceful now. This hasnít worked in the past. The only intervention which had any positive influence , is the counselor .
We both go to IC this week, next week will be a joined session.
- when we talk about rebuilding trust I will require
A full time line
Clarification about EA / PA - I have my doubts .
NC

But I do that in a prepared manner under the supervision of the counselor .
I will be the cool, calm and collected one.
I have been angry when trying to bring those topics before.
I trust that there is a process.

She does not have vault apps, thanks for the hint.
I will watch what will happen with Snapchat .

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