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Different perspective

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Atg100 posted 10/20/2018 18:50 PM

My wife was relatively young when she had our children and for the first 6years of motherhood , she hadnít had any ď girls night outĒ

So itís justifiable to say that now, that she has joined the work force again, she could go out with her girlfriends to a food and wine festival. The other two women she went out with are in relationships, I know one of them fairly well and rate her highly.
All the young mothers from our kidís primary school seem to want to make up for lost time or something. And they have been away together on motherís weekends and girls night out.
However - my wife has done that much more frequently than the others over the last 12 months.
Her own mother commented on that.

Today, when I got the kids ready for a bike ride, my wife actually got up and joined us. ( on the bike with headache and nausea . Hasnít hurt anyone)
ď have I done the wrong thing again?Ē
I told her that she should join us for fun and a coffee afterwards, which she did.
We talked briefly afterwards about how she enjoyed it.

Overall I completely agree: the drinking must stop.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 6:56 PM, October 20th (Saturday)]

AFL1000 posted 10/20/2018 19:03 PM


Ah just noticed our posts overlapped.

I had concerns that her night out would result in her over indulging in drink yet again. She's hung over again, grabbed a coffee, left you to look after the kids and went back to bed.

Why are you tolerating this? Go in there open the blinds, take her a bottle of water, tell her to take a shower, come and share looking after the kids and tell her you are going to yoga. No ifs or buts.

She has poor boundaries when it comes to alcohol consumption, which leads to poor decision making and totally disrespects you by coming home after a night out unable to do house or family tasks.

Has her alcohol issue been raised with your counsellor?

Please listen to what Stevesn and Robert22205 are telling you.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 7:07 PM, October 20th (Saturday)]

Atg100 posted 10/20/2018 19:12 PM

I am definitely listening, I am alert to what is going on.
I went out on Friday evening after a conference - 2 beers, drove home , in time for a bedtime story for my boy.
Ready to take him to sport on Saturday morning at 7am.
So it can be done, and Iím not special.

She can do the same if she wants to....

[This message edited by Atg100 at 7:31 PM, October 20th (Saturday)]

Stevesn posted 10/21/2018 00:38 AM

Itís late here so only a brief comment.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think her only seeing him when sheís around others at work will be a safe situation.

More than likely they have at least kissed. Who knows what else. And they planned to share a hotel room together after a romantic evening.

Them seeing each other, exchanging Knowing glances, is keeping a pilot light on the relationship.

Of course if sheís with you pining for him, that is not safe either.

At some point you should talk to your IC about how you expect to ever feel safe with her again. What would she have to do. How she would have to act. What she would have to say to make you really feel that she wants you and only you.

You need to know what you need to see and hear and feel in order to stay with her for the next 40 years.

Did you ask her point blank if she saw the AP last night.

And I totally agree. No mother and wife should be hung over as often as she is, let alone a WW.

Stop telling her she can go out when she asks if you want her to stay. Tell her only she can make those decisions for herself.

Donít let her say you gave her a hall pass to, at least, get drunk and crazy. My wife and I go out alone with our friends once a month. She stopped drinking 10 years ago and for me, a second drink will be the limit.

We have a good time talking with our friends and then come home. Sometimes itís dinner. Some times a movie and some times a concert.

Adults act like adults. Sheís not yet acting like one. Having kids young is no excuse for going outside marital boundaries. If she doesnít want to be married so she can have lovers on the side she should divorce you. Otherwise she should group up.

As for you, I donít understand the details of your job, but 12 straight days with little family contact is not reasonable. It is not conducive to good family life. And thatís true even if your wife were not having an affair.

If you want your marriage to work, you need to find a way to limit that to a shorter timespan, say 2 or maybe 3 days at the most.

I see hear a lot people talking about 100 hr workweeks or souses working opposite shifts 7days a week. At some point you have to put your M first and agree itís not worth the money if you are gonna lose each other in the process.

I hope youíll think about that and try to work on a solution to this issue. I donít see how you can work on things if you are apart that long. You might as well be separated.

Bed time for me now.

Atg100 posted 10/21/2018 03:34 AM

Thanks for the long reply
I start with my work hours - they are too long and I established a private practice to slowly withdraw from the crazy hours in the public hospital system.
Unfortunately this lead to the original business partners falling out - some guys tried to sue me- I can tell you I havenít had to pay a single cent, apart from lawyers cost.
But that happened next to normal work hours; it was horrendous. My remaining business partner was in the same situation - his wife didnít cheat. My wife felt lonely and was open to the advances of another guy. Her decision , her fault , of course . But the overall picture is that I work too much.
The long term plan is still to establish the private practice and stick to normal office hours.

Tonight I discussed her drinking with her.
I printed out the side effects and health warnings about the combination of alcohol and her antidepressant medication.
She acknowleged that she had a problem and will not drink anymore. I said I would join her and we both stop drinking alcohol.
Mind you, I have a bottle of scotch from last Christmas - itís half full, so Iím not the one with a problem.
When on-call I never drink anyway, but I just wanted to show support.

The full extend of her affair, the effect that it has on me and how to rebuild trust : all that needs to be explored .
After the few discussions we had, I do actually think that she has no insight about how I may feel.
At this point it looks to me that she likes to think that she was a victim of circumstances , rather than an active participant. Thatís why I donít want to her to use the alcohol as an excuse either.

I am also not sure why she decided to give us another chance, other than that the counselling opened her eyes.
All this needs to be discussed with the counsellor individually first - and then in a joined session.
I will go to IC one more time , I think.
My wife needs to go weekly and then I will join her for the couples session again.

No contact - I have not given away my sources - but I now know all her passwords and had time to check her phone . I wish I had known those passwords earlier , I only figured those out after D-Day.
He is blocked on Facebook and his phone number not on her phone. She doesnít have a second phone.
Of course - he will have her phone number , Iím aware.
Anyway - all those points you raise need to be discussed , I will do this in the counselling sessions.
That seems to be the only way which has achieved some change so far.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 3:37 AM, October 21st (Sunday)]

Stevesn posted 10/21/2018 07:10 AM

Hi Atg

Thanks for the response and update. Iím glad you had that talk with her. Her response was good. Although as we learn here, words are just words, not actions. We will see if she can stick to it. Depending on the severity perhaps she may need assistance in stopping the alcohol use. AA comes to mind. Recommend an all female group if you both decide it would be helpful.

As for your work, again it sounds like a very complex situation. But I cannot stress this enough. Your marriage is in crisis. 12 days essentially apart with her solely responsible for managing her job and the kids is a difficult time for the healthiest of marriages.

A long term plan will not help with the short term needs your relationship has right now.

I encourage you to call in some favors and find a way to get released part of the time you are required to be there. Working transplants is incredibly important, I know, but you shouldnít be required to lose your M over it.

Your transition to a more reasonable schedule needs to be accelerated, even if it means that you donít achieve every financial goal you both have.

I hope you will think about this.

Oh and one more thing, since you brought it up again. I think you said you internalized the entire lawsuit process you went thru which sounds like it was completely painful. It sounds like you completely shut your family out of what you were going through during this, especially your wife. Maybe I have that wrong, but if not, I believe that was the wrong thing to do.

Marriage means that you share your pain with your spouse. It means you rely on each other during the rough times. I suspect she knew more than you relayed to her and in a way was hurt that you did not let her do her job as a wife and partner. Absolutely no reason to have an affair mind you. But something that very well could have a negative affect on any relationship.

I recommend you take a few weeks/sessions and discuss this in IC with the therapist. It may be that if you two do start working on R that you should let her in on what you went through. She needs to feel a part of the relationship and in doing so needs to know the forces that are working against it.

This is similar to your comment above that she doesnít know how you feel. I think you tend not to tell her. That needs to change in my opinion.

Iím sorry if I have any of this wrong. And thanks for listening.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:12 AM, October 21st (Sunday)]

AFL1000 posted 10/21/2018 07:17 AM

I am glad you had the talk with your wife about drinking and combining that with antidepressants and the damage this can do. I truly hope she understands the serious impacts this can have on her health. But as a medical practitioner I'm sure you got that point across.

Now that you have passwords to her phone (and personal computer??) did you check to see if she downloaded any apps cheaters use to contact their APs (e.g. snapchat). You may be reluctant to do this but you have already taken a step by checking her phone anyway.

A number of members responding to your thread would probably like you to be a bit more forceful in getting your wife to answer questions about the affair and her feelings towards you but as fareast said this is only advice you have to choose the path that will help you get the answers you need to work towards R. If your path is to use your councellor to get those answers we must respect your decision.

I hope your impending busy work schedule doesn't add to the stress you are already dealing with.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 7:47 AM, October 21st (Sunday)]

Atg100 posted 10/21/2018 15:01 PM

I just need to clarify the on call commitments.
Monday to Thursday is not too bad - I have junior and mid-level colleagues who take a lot of the pressure away from me.
A lot can be done over the phone and I am usually home for dinner/bedtime even if I have to go back later.
Friday to Monday will be the big one. The number of junior colleagues dramatically drops and I will be in the hospital most of the day with frequent call outs at night.
Anyway itís not sustainable in the long term and yes the M is more important.

The reason why I havenít brought up more regarding details and so on - the counsellors statement ď first heal the person, then heal the marriage ď makes me believe that this all will be addressed . I will clarify in my session on Wednesday .
I am looking for some guidance in this madness.
Yes, I have internalised my own pain again, and i need to discuss this with my wife, once we are getting there .

I do have her laptop passwords , she doesnít have any other apps on her phone which may assist the cheating.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 4:26 PM, October 21st (Sunday)]

Stevesn posted 10/22/2018 06:20 AM


Hope the first day on call has gone well and you are able to get home at a reasonable time.

Try to rely on the lower level colleagues as much as possible during the next 12 days and attend to your own hurting family.

I still think if you and your WW do decide (and you each need to decide if you can) to R then you need to start being more open with what is happening in your life.

Again, disclaimer that there is never a valid reason for having an A, but closeness is developed in a relationship when each partner is open to the other about what issues and problems they are going through. Donít try and shelter your spouse from what you are experiencing. It creates separation which is not good for a marriage.

I think similarly you need to start discussing with her the pain her A has caused you. She may think you didnít even care. As you said, stop hiding the pain. She needs to know you cared that she betrayed you in such a way.

Lastly, how about this weekend you ask your W to bring the kids around for lunch. Even if itís just for 30-40 mins each day it can create closeness knowing that dad just doesnít disappear for the weekend when he is on call.

Iím worried about you. Hang in there. Discuss this with your IC.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:21 AM, October 22nd (Monday)]

Atg100 posted 10/22/2018 13:57 PM

Thanks Stevesn

First day wasnít too bad , even went for a run before it started.
Yes, my work and her feeling lonely must have done something to do with it. I realise that and will make a lot of effort. Yesterday was ok- I left in time to take my boy to sport and we all had dinner when we came home.
She will take the kids camping next weekend - she said ď I have to reconnect with the childrenĒ
The kids are excited so thatís a good thing. I asked her if does this this to get away from the relationship. She denied this and told me that being hung over and missing out on family time on Sunday was disappointing.

I asked her why she decided to stay in the relationship and try work on the marriage yesterday .
She said ď I realised how good I have itĒ

I didnít answer. It sounded to me like a toss up.
There was no ď because I love you ď or ď I realised my mistake ď

It sounds pretty selfish to me , just like the affair.
I will discuss how to approach this with the counselor tomorrow .

[This message edited by Atg100 at 2:18 PM, October 22nd (Monday)]

Atg100 posted 10/22/2018 16:32 PM

A further discussion with my wife this morning.
We talked about honesty and that I need to open up more.

I took this opportunity to tell her that she needs to acknowledge my pain and help me to heal.
She said ď this was the only bad thing I have ever done in my lifeĒ - as if Iím a judge who has to take past behaviour into account.
She asked what I want her to do about it.
I said:
100% honesty
No contact
Give me time to heal
Discuss with the counsellor.
She was surprised that I had a list ready.
She will have something to think about today...

[This message edited by Atg100 at 6:40 PM, October 22nd (Monday)]

AFL1000 posted 10/22/2018 21:29 PM


I asked her why she decided to stay in the relationship and try work on the marriage yesterday.
She said ď I realised how good I have itĒ

Yes my friend she is still in selfish mode. More 'grist for the mill' for your IC to work on.

Your immediate response to what you want her to do about acknowledging your pain and helping you heal was uneqivocal. Hope that set her back on her heels.

I would follow up and ask "Did you think about those actions I am asking you to take to help me heal from your affair". What her responses are will tell you a lot about her current mindset.

I am also pleased that you acknowledged that you need to be more honest, open and sharing with your wife about personal and professional issues happening in your life, how they are impacting the marriage and how she can support you.

Continue moving forward fellow Aussie.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 9:30 PM, October 22nd (Monday)]

Buster123 posted 10/22/2018 21:58 PM

ď I realised how good I have itĒ

Very selfish indeed, it's still all about HER, I guess she was honest about it but that doesn't mean you have to accept it, instead this would have been better: "I realized I took you for granted and was confused but I want you and my family, I realized I was wrong and my A was just a fantasy and that I still love you and will do everything in my power to restore the M and hopefully try to make our relationship stronger than ever", of course her response was light years away from this.

Atg100 posted 10/23/2018 00:35 AM

Buster :
If she would have said anything close to that, I would have stopped posting here and closed my account .
No such luck, sadly.

Thank you both for your support, I hope that time is on our side and that she slowly gets the message.

AFL1000 posted 10/23/2018 20:23 PM


Hope the counselling sessions this week for you and your wife lead to further steps to get more answers about the affair, the work your wife will need to do in rebuilding trust and her recognition of the pain she has given you by her words and actions by this betrayal of the marriage.

Use your posts here as an aide-memoire to make a list of questions you need to discuss with your counsellor.

Hope you are achieving some level of work and life balance given your busy work schedule of the next 12 days.

Atg100 posted 10/24/2018 03:15 AM

Thanks , I appreciate the message.
I had a good talk to the counsellor .
I mentioned how I thought my wifeís statement was very selfish, and she agreed - in context however , my wife has never been a person who would make grand statements of love. I should possibly see it that I am part of what she meant, but that I was also expecting too much.
My wife is in a defensive mode and that appears frustrating and confusing to me. Edit : it is frustrating !
But the counselor believes that my wife wants to stay in the relationship and that she thoroughly works on it - in her own way.
But she needs more individual sessions to take ownership of the affair .
I asked about full disclosure - she said in 20 years working as a counsellor, she had seen one couple who came close to it.
I pointed out a large 5 months gap in my reconstruction of the affair - and she agrees that this needs to be explained by my wife. In particular as she had clearly been lying about that time.
The counsellor will in the next sessions with my wife come closer to the hard reality and the questions my wife has to face if she truly wants reconciliation .
But itís a process and I am happy to work at her speed.
I find those sessions reassuring , so I will continue to go.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 5:08 AM, October 24th (Wednesday)]

Stevesn posted 10/24/2018 13:54 PM

Hey Atg

Iím glad you plan on continuing the IC. This process out of infidelity is a marathon, not a sprint and his support could be invaluable over the next months to come.

Plus I stress again you need to work on why you hide your stressors from your loved one, whether you stay with your WW or not. I got to tell you, my wife hears almost everything that is weighing on my mind. Sheís great at consoling me and I try to return the favor. It makes us closer.

You mention 5 months of missing info on the A. Are you suspecting it went physical? If it did would that change wanting R for you? It might for me although an A is still an A whether it was emotional or physical or both.

Finally When talking to the IC, I understand what he is saying about your W not easily showing emotion or conveying her love. But I think you need to be very clear to him, and especially, to her that you are not willing to stay in a marriage where she is only there out of a sense of duty to you and the kids.

You deserve to be fully loved. While infatuation fades quickly, that doesnít mean love has to. Iím still IN LOVE with my wife and she makes me feel the same way back. Doesnít mean I expect her to act like a schoolgirl with a crush. But it means I am the one in the world that she has these feelings for.

If it were me, and she was only suppressing her feelings for the POSOM, then Iíd say THANKS BUT NO THANKS and tell her to go find happiness with him.

You deserved to be fully loved as you love her. At some point I think you need to put your foot down on this point and let her know that if she doesnít think she can truly love you then the work required to R is going to be impossible and you best use the time to end the M.

Make sure your IC knows this too. You are trusting him to tell you if she can get to a place you need her to be in order to stay in the M. If thatís not possible they both need to be honest with you about that.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:56 PM, October 24th (Wednesday)]

Atg100 posted 10/24/2018 17:13 PM

I am getting better at sharing my feelings.
I told her how I felt about her comment on Sunday and how it sounded selfish. I told her that I have insomnia as a consequence of her affair.
She hasnít responded , but my counsellor told me that she wonít until she will leave the defensive mode. The counselor guides her slowly, she feels if she goes too hard, my wife wouldnít come back.
( the ďdefender ď protects the ď inner child ď)

Has the affair been physical ? I donít know any more. Obviously she has been lying about so many other things, who knows? My counselor doesnít know , but her best assessment of the situation is that if she would have slept with the guy, she would have left our marriage . Mind you the guy was lying about his marital status- they would have had to go to a hotel or similar. Everything is possible of course.

I will ask my wife for a full time line of the affair.

Without excusing the behaviour but there were many reasons why she had become vulnerable to the advances of a predator.
( the POSOM pretended to be divorced, always hangs out at the nursing parties and functions. I have read his texts , he can be quite charming . .... my fist would like to meet his nose one day)
I will work on my bit , but she has to work on hers

Stevesn posted 10/24/2018 18:08 PM

Ok thanks for that info.

I understand the MCís approach but promise us you wonít settle for less than you deserve.

Trying to have a relationship with someone whoís heart is with another, and/or doesnít love you is a very lonely existence.

Have a good day.

Are plans for the weekend still the same? How do you know POSOM isnít going to show up when sheís away camping with the kids?

Atg100 posted 10/24/2018 19:25 PM

I will not settle for less ; I thought this year so far has been pretty horrible. I have set December 31 as a date in my mind, at which I want to have clarity ; it may be symbolic, but I think 2 months with counselling should really tell me if both of us are just compromising and stay together for reasons other than love.
Again we are far away from that; right now she has to come clean with herself about what happened and then she has to come clean with me.

The other guy showing up at camping? This would be something my boy would immediately tell me.
If she would do that, then there is no helping her

[This message edited by Atg100 at 9:32 PM, October 24th (Wednesday)]

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