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Different perspective

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fareast posted 10/16/2018 20:14 PM

Atg100:

You are a good man trying to navigate this shitstorm the best you can. Our advice is just that: advice. You are the one who has to live with the decisions you make. In my experience and reading here your WWís behavior is quite typical, waffling between being caring and friendly, and cold and distant. Part of it is manipulation and part is true ambivalence. This will continue as long as she is in daily contact with the OM. Our goal here is to get you out of that maelstrom so you can make a sound decision for you. Physical separation may have an effect on your WW or not. But it will help you gain clarity. It is hard to think clearly while being whipsawed. None of this easy. We have all made mistakes and felt helpless or fragile. It comes with the territory. You have a lot to consider with your family and career, and your personal predisposition to be a fixer. Try to get away from all this a little to do something nice for yourself, a concert, a sporting event, an activity. Just my thoughts. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 8:46 PM, October 16th (Tuesday)]

Atg100 posted 10/17/2018 17:44 PM

Thank you,
I watched ď The Dawn WallĒ about the the first ascend of that part of ďEl Capitan ď in Yosemite .
Interestingly the main climber became obsessed with that climb, to deal with his divorce.
But I donít want to over interpret things , it was a great movie and I had a beer with a friend.

But it took my mind of things.
I asked the counselor if I should stop trying and ask her to leave. She said ď you should do that, once you are sure that you have tried everything and be clear about this. Otherwise you will have regrets. ď
I asked her if she had seen couples as ď messed up ď as we are - and she said that our situation was not unusual.
She said ď if I get your wifeís head out of the sand, there is a chance ď
She thought it was good , that my wife finally talked about having had an affair .
ď there is movement , that is goodĒ
She also confirmed that my wife had sent in her homework.
Quite complex personality questionnaires and other tasks.


About myself -
ď you are a doctor , your way of fixing things is to look for information and you want to provide solutions ď
This is true.

I am confident with the counselor as she agrees with the advice given here.
She agrees with the 180
She knows that unless my wife takes full ownership and discloses everything , there is no chance of reconciliation .

So she didnít come up with any fairy stuff, she strongly suggested that I should stop blaming myself .

I gave her that example - my wife talking about the probable affair of her friendís husband.
And she was gobsmacked as well about the lack of insight.
She asked if she could talk about this today with her - my wife will go this afternoon.
So , I hang in there, I feel the counselor is a chance .

AFL1000 posted 10/17/2018 18:37 PM

Hey mate

I was going to check in to see how your counselling session went. So glad you have confidence in her and she does appear to doing a good job guiding you through this infidelity maze and helping you with all the emotions which come with it.

Positives:
- wife sent in the counsellor's homework on the personality questionnaires
- recognises there can be no R until your wife takes full ownership
- wife finally talked about the affair
- that you should stop blaming yourself.

Glad to see your counsellor was as gobsmacked as we all were about the comment your wife made to you about her friend's husband probable affair.

I know it must be intensely frustrating waiting to see where all this is heading and I guess your wife's meeting this afternoon with the counsellor is a critical one for you both.

Did your wife ask for any details of your counselling session?

Sending you strength and bro hugs (((ATG)))

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 7:20 PM, October 17th (Wednesday)]

Stevesn posted 10/17/2018 21:51 PM

Good to hear from you.

She sounds like a good counselor.

Iíll be interested in what happens with your WW and her session. I honestly think she is still in THE FOG with this guy. Especially if she still sees him multiple times a week.

And it would take an incredible amount of work for her to ever gain your trust again especially after she essentially has said she wasnít in love with you.

So Iím glad you know that you have a path out of there if the 2% chance that she can rebuild what she has destroyed doesnít come through.

Atg100 posted 10/17/2018 23:16 PM

Thank you, it is a good counselor , I am lucky.
I talked about rebuilding trust with the counselor and she just said : ď your wife isnít even closeĒ
She called it ď head in the sand ď , we call it ď the fog ď.
I really liked that the counselor has clear steps in mind of what needs to be achieved , before we could ever talk about rebuilding trust.

The session gave me some comfort :
- a professional recognises patters in my wifeís behaviour and coping mechanism.
- there is a plan.
- I am not the crazy one ... this one is important : I can just wait for progress, rather than trying to force it . It is fair to say, whenever I tried to create pressure , my wife started to resist. As long as she goes to the sessions , there is some hope, that she gets to the next step.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 11:17 PM, October 17th (Wednesday)]

AFL1000 posted 10/18/2018 02:25 AM

ATG

What your thread shows is the value of working with a councellor who is experienced in working with relationships damaged by infidelity and involving them very early in the process.

Do you and your wife discuss how the IC sessions have gone even in only general terms or has your IC advised against this at this point in time.

It would be interesting to know what your wife's demeanour is after her session today. Quiet, reserved, non-communicative, talkative, willing to share????

I take encouragement that after your session that there is a plan by your councellor to get your wife's 'head out of the sand' and that "you are not the crazy one" in all this. (Never thought you were).

We await your update

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 2:41 AM, October 18th (Thursday)]

Atg100 posted 10/18/2018 03:41 AM

Thank you.
The affair had been going on for a while, so it hasnít been that early.
My wife came from counselling quite optimistic- ď letís give us another go ď and gave me a big hug.
She was the ice queen this morning, so quite a turnaround .
I only said that we should stick to the plan, give each other time and space and continue to work with the counsellor.
I know that the counselor would have only talked about her reasons to be vulnerable for cheating. She has some insecurities , going way back into her childhood.

She had explained to me yesterday ď first rebuild the individual , then rebuild the relationship ď
I didnít bring up NC , rebuilding trust, ownership of the affair .
I know that the counselor will cut to the tough questions next time - and I was pleased to hear that the follow up appointment has already been booked.
My wife appears fairly immature at the moment, well she is. I have to trust the process and wait. Rather than now putting up my list of requirements to rebuild trust - and putting too much pressure up.
We agreed to take things slowly and - just like last weekend give each other a day of each on the coming weekend , by spending time with the kids in turn. I donít want to dampen her spirit, but I am cynical, in particular as no contact has not been discussed . And this dramatic choice of her to contact the AP when drunk - is less than 2 weeks ago.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 4:16 AM, October 18th (Thursday)]

Stevesn posted 10/19/2018 07:18 AM

I think you have the right attitude. Sit back and observe. As long as you have a year separation ahead of you, not much else you can do I guess.

Just donít compromise your values. You know what you need to see from her in order to work on reconciliation. Youíre not even getting 1% of that.

A truly Remorseful WW would be getting a new job away from the AP just to give her M a chance. Sheís still happy to see him multiple times per week. That should be enough to keep you focused right now on getting out of this marriage.

Keep up with your individual sessions with the counselor. Sounds like she has your back. But beware if she starts to ask you to give in a bit.

There are certain things in a marriage that one should not accept. Your wife pining away for another man is one. Another is her professing that she may care about him more than you. And lastly her being with that man every few days.

Iím hopeful you are on a path out of this mess. Her choice if she follows you on that journey or not.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:20 AM, October 19th (Friday)]

Atg100 posted 10/19/2018 13:58 PM

You are 100% correct.
So far she has figured out some of her reasons, which is of course important .
She drove for quite a distance to meet me for a coffee after her work finished , to have a chat.
She said she wouldnít go out on Saturday night with her two female friends , as she wanted to do the right thing by me. We had planned for a separate weekend prior to her change of mind.
I like those two women and I told her that she can go out, as long as there wonít be a repetition of the events two weeks ago.
She told me that she wants to do the right thing by me and doesnít want me to be at home with the kids, worried.
I told her, that if she is trustworthy, then I will trust her.
- I could see that she was thinking about that statement for a while , but she didnít say anything.
I actually want to spend tonight on my own, I feel a whole day with her is a bit much at the moment.
But there are so many unanswered questions:
Why does she decide to stay, surely there must be a compelling reason, other than finding out that she has some deep rooted insecurities. I thought she doesnít love me or find me attractive ?
Then of course all the other more affair specific questions : ownership , no contact, full disclosure .
But the best way to get to those answers is via the counselor. I donít think she will ask me to back down. She knows all that needs to be explained before reconciling.
My friends here all give me the same warning: look after yourself! I will . I have become quite cynical - I donít want this to be in the way of a reconciliation either, but she has to do some work.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 1:59 PM, October 19th (Friday)]

AFL1000 posted 10/19/2018 19:43 PM

Hi ATG

I am pleased with your last post that your wife has taken some positive, albeit very tentative steps forward but when the trust issue was mentioned she didn't say anything.

I agree that it is a good idea to maintain a healthy level of scepticism with her actions because as you say the BIG questions are all still unanswered.

Alone time has its advantages but just be sure you do something productive with it and not use it to dwell on your situation. Are you still doing your hiking? Are you scheduling time to do hobbies or interests that you may have neglected?

Are you looking after yourself physically? Eating, sleeping and exercising properly?

I am glad you have members like Stevesn and fareast guiding you through all this.


Atg100 posted 10/19/2018 23:16 PM

Without you guys, I couldnít have remained calm, your support is vital.
I went out for dinner with friends last night, so itís ok that Iím spending tonight at home, after putting the kids to bed.
I didnít sleep much over the last two weeks and consequently exercise suffered. Iím normally exercising at least on 5 days per week, so itís quite unusual for me.
Now Iím sleeping better , I want to go to bed early, I wonít dwell on things.
I made hiking plans and will go to yoga as well.

My wife doesnít seem to have such problems, but who knows what is going on in her head. We are still sleeping in different rooms at the moment; Iím happy with that.

I will give her time to address the real questions , it may take a week- but without her giving some answers , it would be my turn to say ď my needs are not met ď

She canít be that naive that she think itís all ok now, can she?

AFL1000 posted 10/20/2018 00:13 AM

ATG

So glad you are looking after your physical health and your councellor is supporting your mental health. Good to see improved sleep patterns and maintaining your yoga practices.

Is your wife that naive to think that all is ok? It's not that she's naive, she's not had to deal with any real consequences of her actions...she still has her home and lifestyle, husband and kids, job, going out with girlfriends and no repercussions for still communicating with the AP that members are sure is still happening.

For the most part her needs are still being met ...at your emotional expense.

Has she made any comments about the separate bedroom situation?

Atg100 posted 10/20/2018 00:22 AM

She said that she understands that I want to take my time.

I am not letting my guard down.
Regarding no repercussions - she saw that I am in touch with a lawyer and she one stage remarked "maybe I needed that wake-up call"
She did not think that I was bluffing.
She cried when we talked about our children having to deal with our separation as a result of her selfishness.

But when to bring all that up?
I will see the counselor on Wednesday, she will see her on Friday next week.
I thought that I will put all this to the counselor in my session and then see what happens.
I think I have to trust the process at the moment, as much as I want to shake her and ask her " are you that naive???"

Atg100 posted 10/20/2018 00:59 AM

Actually, reading my post again, made me realise, that I actually should ask for no contact.
I told her that Iím happy for her to go out with her friends.
But I told her if the AP also should turn up for whatever reason, she has to leave.
( itís not completely impossible ; she is going to a festival and she and her friends did this Facebook status thing, showing where they are going tonight. Iím sure that if he looks at her profile , he could have seen that. Facebook has a lot to answer for)
I also told her that she should block him on Facebook, their preferred communication method.
She said she would come home, she assured me that if he should turn up, it would not be as a consequence of anything she did .
And she blocked him on Facebook.
Now itís also easy to unblock someone of course , but as far as I can see she agreed to anything I asked for, without putting up any resistance.

toby posted 10/20/2018 06:04 AM

Surely you don't believe a word sheís saying? Look, last time she went out she met up with the OM and lied. Why would this time be any different? Naive? Yes......not her though!

Atg100 posted 10/20/2018 06:42 AM

The change of heart came after a counselling session.
She offered not to go out and in fact had already cancelled her ticket for this food festival.
I think she has had some understanding of what went wrong and seems to try.
I have no desire to tell an adult what she can and canít do.
Like I said last time, it always comes out anyway, so this is a test of her trustworthiness .
In addition to that - I was looking forward to a quiet evening on my own, so if I had asked her to stay, neither of us would get what they wanted. No, Iím relaxed about tonight, Iím much more concerned about the long term future.
If she doesnít learn from this in the long term , then next time the same drama will happen again.
So I hope our work with the counselor will lead to some long term strategies to avoid a repetition .

Stevesn posted 10/20/2018 08:09 AM

Hi my friend. So far Iím comfortable you have a good counselor and itís appropriate to follow her advice and see where it goes.

Iím confident also that you wonít let her railroad you into accepting less than you deserve.

A slightly different approach to telling your WW to go when she says sheíll stay if you want her to is to tell her you canít tell her what to do, she has to decide those things for herself.

Her choices all go into whether or not your marriage will be saved. Let her know she has to make those choices for herself depending on what SHE wants, and not based on you telling her what YOU want.

Iíd still be letting her know that you understand sheís not attracted to or in love with you anymore and that you canít spend your life with someone who feels that way. Whether you believe that to be the truth or not, I believe sheís either said that to you or inferred it in the past, and I think itís a very salient point to make.

Doing so will make her start to think about what sheís losing and if she really feels that way or itís just a part of her FOG for the OM. If she wants you she will have to find a way to make you feel those words are no longer true.

Iím glad you made it clear that contact tonite with the AP is something you cannot stand for and will always make it impossible to consider working on R.

Iím still one that thinks that PUSHING them toward the AP and telling them you wonít be inclined at all to work on R if they are still pining for them is the quickest way to break the fog. Donít let her think you are working to R until she shows up, hat in hand truly saying ďI fucked up, I love you, heís a POS, and I want to repair what I destroyed ď.

Just the fact that sheís still willing to work with him and has not come to you saying ďI want to quit and find another job to get away from himĒ means sheís still in the A, even if sheís moving a few inches away from it right now.

I guess my finall thought is you want her to FEEL the remorse for what she has done and FEEL that you are the one for her. She has to truly Feel it in her heart, and not just be doing it because a MC tells her itís the right thing.

Iím hoping the MC is good enough to get her there in a real way and not just a superficial one. Because the former is the only way it will work. The latter is not sustainable.

Hope youíve had a peaceful evening.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:13 AM, October 20th (Saturday)]

Robert22205https posted 10/20/2018 12:01 PM

I'm sorry that someone that should be valued and respected by their spouse is not. I'm sure this is not the girl you married.

I think the decision to R or D should be driven by your self respect because that's the foundation for who you are as a father and member of your community.

I think your wife's offer to not go out was not genuine. If I can read you from just your earlier posts then your wife certainly can predict your response that it's her decision.

I also think that since she knows how to say all the right things to you - but still meets the OM behind your back - means she lacks core values of honesty and commitment to marriage.

Therefore, I think she needs a lot more than a few counseling sessions to fix herself. In fact, I suspect that she uses the counseling sessions to become a better liar.

Atg100 posted 10/20/2018 16:03 PM

Hi guys , I share your thoughts. I am not sitting here,pretending that one smile and a kiss will make up for what has happened.

I am ready to forgive, but the pain I have felt for so long, can not be left alone.
I need to hear from her that she is committed to 100% honesty.

She came home last night, we had a brief chat, but slept in different beds.
She is hung over this morning, came briefly down for a coffee and now left me with the kids.
I can't go to yoga, although there is another class tonight.
It is disappointing, from tomorrow I will go onto a 12 day working stretch, being on for the transplant service in our hospital. This is always an enormous time commitment and pressure on me - and the family; today would have been the day to do family stuff together. The divorce rates in my profession are significantly higher to others. And our work commitments definitely play a part.

My wife is a theater nurse, the AP is a rep for a company for highly specialized surgical instruments. She doesn't see him every day and could restrict interactions purely to inside theater in front of the rest of the team. So, a committed wife, in my opinion, could stay at the same work place.
( By the way :sales reps: They have the gift of the gab. Apologies to all nice reps)

But actions speak more than words and I am feeling flat about the whole thing.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 4:28 PM, October 20th (Saturday)]

Cooley2here posted 10/20/2018 17:19 PM

Please tell me why your wife goes out at night drinking. That is not a mature person. That is someone in college long before they mature. She could spend an afternoon,Saturday perhaps, having lunch and conversation. What she is doing is sitting there waiting. You know this.

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