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Game of Thrones

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BraveSirRobin posted 5/7/2019 09:11 AM

What bugs me is that Missandei was standing right there at the edge of the wall with Cersei at her elbow. She's a smart woman who knows she's doomed. Grab Cersei's arm and jump!

LetItRain posted 5/8/2019 18:24 PM

What about Craster's baby sons?
They didn't get life from the NK...I have a bad feeling about that.

BraveSirRobin posted 5/11/2019 14:07 PM

Didn't the Night King change them, though? He touched the baby's forehead, and his eyes turned blue. I figured that meant they would shatter the same way the other White Walkers did.

I'm just stunned by the lack of security around the Night King. You'd think that if everyone on the Dead Side understood that their survival hinged entirely on his, they'd convince him to take fewer risks -- and if that didn't work, knock him out and lock him in a bunker somewhere.

champ posted 5/13/2019 09:22 AM

Mad Queen
Who will be the Queen Slayer?

BraveSirRobin posted 5/15/2019 00:26 AM

Jon. He's going to run his sword through her. I don't know if you read the books, but there's an implication in them that Jon is the reincarnation of Azor Ahai, an ancient hero whose sword kept breaking until he tempered it by thrusting it through his beloved wife's heart. By killing her, he saved the world.

I'm super pissed by how they've destroyed so many of the characters and story arcs this season, but at least if Jon does this, it will tie in with some element of the original plot.

Pippin posted 5/15/2019 05:56 AM

I predict Arya will kill Grey Worm and take his face and kill Danyeris so she believes she is killed by her last remaining friend. I canít believe Arya did all that training for nothing. No opinion on Jon Snow, heíll either defer to Sansa or tell everyone heís a member of the House That Shall Not Be Named and get crucified. Or he might fly off on the dragon. Or, best yet, got north and find Ghost so he can give him some pets and tell him heís a good doggy like he should have done ages ago.

foreverlabeled posted 5/15/2019 07:28 AM

It's been disappointing how this final season is wrapping up. I really wanted to see Cersei's demise at the hands of someone/anyone, and not just crushed to death. Lame.

Apparently, Arya was given a prediction, something about brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. All that's left is green eyes and Danny makes the cut. I don't know if that will come to be.

I'm not emotionally prepared for the final episode.

Pippin posted 5/15/2019 08:07 AM

Cersei getting crushed was one of the few things I did like in season 8. What killed her was the weight of her own aspiration and greed, so the Red Keep crashing on top of her was perfect retribution. And I liked the Jaime ending too, both because I am all for flawed heros but also because it finally got back to one of the GOT premises that I appreciate: you're not going to get the happy ending i.e. Jaime's redemption story that you have been trained to expect by other books, you're going to get flawed people whose internal logic looks crazy at first but on second thought makes sense. (And with that, not one but TWO personal infidelity links)

[This message edited by Pippin at 8:28 AM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

foreverlabeled posted 5/15/2019 09:32 AM

I don't know if you read the books
yeah but they aren't even working with George R. R. Martin anymore or anything that probably resembles his end to it all. I for one will be happy when his last book comes out and will be able to read the rest of HIS story. Im sure it will be better than what the HBO writers have been coming up with.

Also, I'm not so sure Jamie is a redemption story. Funny how people can perceive the same events so differently.

I would just like the end to give a satisfactory closure.

Oldwounds posted 5/15/2019 09:36 AM

While this season is making me look forward to the eventual final books in the series, I'm not as bothered by some of the bad deaths as others.

For me, the world GRRM built isn't based on standard full circle happy endings. Or happy anything for that matter.

Ned Stark's demise set the tone for the whole thing. He did everything by the book, always took the path of the right thing to do and his honorable intentions cost him his life.

A reminder life so rarely turns out how we want or expect.

But overall, the producers are certainly taking a lot of short cuts as they wrap this up, which removes any chance at any real depth with these big reveals here at the end.

KatyaCA posted 5/15/2019 16:20 PM

I am so conflicted by the idea of them taking shortcuts with Daenerys arc.

How long does it take someone to snap who has lost their best friend, the respect they thought they had, the person they love, and then also being betrayed by their closest allies?

I understand that they attempted to paint Daenerys as good, fair, wanting freedom etc... but we need to keep in mind that until her marriage to Khal her closest person was her brother and he hammered, and hammered, and hammered the absolute right to the throne. Her entitlement did not come out of the blue. It has always been there. She has also not always been honorable or measured in her approach to problems. She wanted to look like a good leader, not be a good leader. Khal was not a measured leader either. I would argue she never had a good example or a teacher for the type of leader they professed that she was going to become. I've read all the possiblities. I am not sure I care how she dies, she just needs to. I hope her dragon does not die though and that Jon keeps him.

I was aggravated by Cersei's death until I read Pippin's post. I hadn't thought of it in that context. That makes a difference. It would have been better had she died alone though.

Arya looked very very angry at the end of last week's episode. I suspect she means to channel that anger into action.

honesttoafault posted 5/15/2019 20:32 PM

I agree that they are wrapping all the story arcs much too quickly. I liked Pippin's post about how the Red Keep is what killed Cersei. I guess poetic justice in a way.

Dany's destruction of the whole city was upsetting. I know they tried to build it up that she felt everyone has betrayed her and she can trust no one and she lost so much, but still. She seemed to be proud of the title "Breaker of Chains". She said she was choosing fear, but she knew from past experience that she also had to earn the love and respect of the people by being the breaker of chains.

When she finds out that Tyrion freed Jaime, he's a dead man. I was hoping that Tyrion would end up being the one on the Iron Throne, possibly ruling for Dany and Jon's baby because they died.

One thing I think they did well was to show the city's destruction through Arya's eyes. It was decimating. The young lady with the long list has added Dany to the top of it I'm sure!

Jon is honorable, almost to a fault like Ned, so I don't know what he's going to do. Grey Worm kept on giving him dirty looks when Jon was trying to stop the soldiers from destroying the surrendering Lannister army.

One thing I kept noticing when Dany was destroying the city on Drogon was the wildfire that was lighting up all around the city. That was how her father was going to destroy the city and the reason that Jaime killed him. Don't know if that's a foreshadowing of things to come with Dany going to be assassinated.

I do know that this season is cutting the story lines much too short and could have been extended to show the story better. I'm excited to see the end, and also saddened it's going to be the end.

devasted30 posted 5/15/2019 22:21 PM

I think we all knew when they announced they were going to be ending GOT in 2 shortened seasons, there was no way they could do it without taking shortcuts. Iím just surprised they have done such a lousy job of it. I was hoping they could and the first couple of episodes worked out pretty good, but the last 3 have been very disappointing.
There is a petition out there, thatís been signed by over 100,000 people, demanding that they re-do the last season. Fat chance, but weíre not the only ones disappointed in this season. Such a shame when it WAS such a great show. It deserved a better ending.

Pippin posted 5/16/2019 09:22 AM

It seems like GRRM gave them a series of bullet points and they are hitting them. Danyeris goes crazy and burns King's Landing. Arya takes out the Night King. Melisandre is key to defending Winterfell. Etc.

What I thought was great about ASOFAI, and GOT when it had books to go on, was the careful, inevitable plotting. Something would happen, like the Red Wedding or Joffrey's murder or Ned Stark's murder, and it would take you by total surprise but in retrospect you would see it HAD to happen that way. Like when Tyrion was key to the Battle of Blackwater. We expected him to get a hero's parade for saving the city, and instead he got thrown in jail. Not fair! But if you are Tywin Lannister, what good does it do you to give Tyrion a hero's parade? None whatsoever. So you throw him in jail and take the glory for yourself. Without the carefully plotted books, they are just hitting bullet points and it's annoying and random.

GRRM might have built up such a massive structure that he can't resolve it, like Schubert's last symphony. He did the first two movements, couldn't figure out how to resolve all of the themes he had in conflict, and died.

Also - while I'm writing - just to clear up that I think Jaime's arc was NOT a redemption story. We are trained to expect redemption stories from western literature, and I think GRRM is telling us to be cautious, it doesn't happen that way. Not for Jaime, not for Danyeris, not for anyone. People are who they are and they don't fundamentally change.

(I don't believe him but I appreciate the bucking of our expectations)

(Just my very humble opinions)

devasted30 posted 5/16/2019 16:36 PM

A lot of good points there Pippin. I understand the storyline, Iím just not sure theyíre carrying it out with the finesse that GoT deserves. Remember how we all cheered when Joffrey got his comeuppance? I think we all wanted to feel that way when Cersei went down. She died with little to no fanfare and, I think, a lot of us feel cheated. Also, though there were signs, I wanted Dany to be deserving of a good life. I never believed she should rule the 7 kingdoms but I never expected her to go ďmadĒ like her Dad. But, since her parents were brother and sister, I guess it was naive on my part.
I do not want Arya to end up sitting on the throne. Nor Sansa. If Iím to be truthful, I would like it to be Jon Snow. But then, Iíve always been a sucker for happy endings and we know GRRM doesnít really believe in them.

BraveSirRobin posted 5/16/2019 22:08 PM

I agree completely that the best twists are the ones you didn't see coming, but in retrospect, they make perfect, horrifying sense. The Red Wedding and the burning of Shireen are two of my favorite plot moments for this reason -- they are driven by fundamental elements of the participants' characters. Walder Frey's pride. Stannis's sense of duty. The only reason we didn't see it coming is that we ascribe basic human limitations to how far people will go, and Martin does not.

The problem I have with this season is that those twists don't make sense. Take Cersei executing Missandei. When Joffrey beheaded Ned Stark in Season 1, Cersei immediately recognized it as a cataclysmic strategic mistake. The loss of the North stemmed directly from that cruel and impulsive show of power. Why would she close her reign with the exact same error? And then, why have Daenerys wait until the city surrendered, and only at that moment, when she has achieved everything she wanted, have her wantonly murder the citizenry? Melt down the Red Keep, sure. Frankly, if she'd done that when she wanted to in the first place, Dorne and Highgarden would never have fallen, and at least one more of her dragons would still be alive. But why roast the people she came to protect immediately after they finally turned to kneel?

These are things we didn't see coming, but not because the writing is brilliant. It's because the writing values shock over all else and sees craft and logic as irrelevant. It's painfully obvious that Martin has left the building.

BraveSirRobin posted 5/16/2019 22:15 PM

I read about the petition. I wish that instead of demanding a reshoot (fat chance, agreed), it said, "The undersigned are too invested in this show to stop watching now, but before you greenlight anything else by Weiss & Benioff, know that there's not a snowball's chance in hell that we'll risk watching another inept, character-assassinating screenplay like this final season. Cut them loose or prepare to lose your shirts on Confederate and all the rumored prequels. Winter is coming."

Pippin posted 5/17/2019 09:56 AM

Well I don't have a good answer for the Missandre problem and will think about it. It's a good question because Cersei is calculating and usually gets it right, and there was nothing to indicate she had changed. Probably her arrogance and faith in the scorpions. And yes, totally agree with GRRM inverting our expectations about people's limits in addition to inverting redemption stories and happy endings. That's in the title, right? In a game of thrones there are no limits to the things people will do for power if they can get away with it. Any king who has felt his crown uneasy on his head and taken a sideways look at his little princes and his brothers knows that, but we plebs don't quite get it.

Danyeris sat on the throne in Dragonstone and told Tyrion that she was going to murder an entire generation out of benevolence to future generations so I don't see it as an unexpected snap. She was entertaining the idea even when she wasn't heated. Tyrion was trying to tell her that the King's Landing people would be so grateful to her for accepting their surrender. I think she wants people who are super loyal, like the unsullied, and the gratitude/loyalty of King's Landing people is too fleeting. Tyrion is such an idiot for not understanding that's what was going to happen. His generous view of her got a million people killed.

Danyeris kills Tyrion for treason
Danyeris kills Jon Snow for treason* (half baked unprovable assertion to the throne and telling others about it).
Arya is incensed, kills Grey Worm, takes face, kills Danyeris
Drogon dies of a broken heart because there can't be dragons in a post-magic world (all the magic things are leaving, yes? Like LOTR. Melisandre, night king, etc. I worry for Bran)
Gendry is king, Arya is done with being an assassin and becomes her own version of queen, Sansa is whatever title of the north
Brienne will be military captain, Davos will be advisor, Sam will be head smart guy to Sansa
Nymeria will find Ghost but we are done with incest so they are just direwolf friends.

*One of Varys's notes got out, Danyeris is dead, Jon will be about to be crowned, and someone** will murder him because NO MORE TARGERYANs.
**Bronn? He's a loose thread to wrap up and is pretty clearly going to kill someone. Could kill Jon or probably Tyrion.

[This message edited by Pippin at 9:58 AM, May 17th (Friday)]

honesttoafault posted 5/17/2019 20:50 PM

Interesting thoughts, Pippin. GRRM is certainly influenced by Tolkien, and no more magic (the Children of the Forest are gone, the Night King, the Wall, etc) are akin to the Elves leaving Middle Earth.

My son thought that Arya would take a face to kill Cersei, but I agree with you, she might do it to kill Dany. I also feel Tyrion is a dead man. Dany will find out that he freed Jaime. I hope not. I love Tyrion.

GRRM had written an Epic saga with so many plots that the writers of the show decided to try to tie them all together, and in so doing, sacrificed the character driven show that most fans came to love. Trying to drive the plot to the conclusion has been at many of the characters expense. Dany's downfall would've taken a longer time to develop. She did have a discussion with Tyrion in the throne room of how the people of Myreen had risen up against their masters and the people of Kings Landing have not, even though Tyrion tried to explain to her why they felt they couldn't. I tried to watch the scene over, and Dany was almost saying that the people of King's Landing deserve to die because they allowed a tyrant to stay on the throne and didn't uprise. If there were more episodes and further character development like earlier seasons, this would've been a longer scene and would've foreshadowed what Dany did to King's Landing.

Tyrion was always characterized by one of the most clever men in the Seven Kingdoms and was given to Dany as a "prize" because of this ability. He was usually a good judge of character and how people would act and react. However, this season shows Tyrion making mistakes in military strategy and misjudging people over and over. This seems to be too much of a change of character. I wonder if he's not so much misjudging people or that he's misjudging Dany. He believes what he thinks he sees in her: the Breaker of Chains. He's not really seeing the Khaleesi whose main goal was to go back to Westeros and take back the Iron Throne.

I'm at a point that I can't predict what will happen, but I am afraid that Tyrion will be executed. Jon, might be the one who kills Dany, which I expected from the beginning, but I tend to agree with Pippen about Arya taking a face and killing Dany.

Bronn is still out there, so he might try to kill Tyrion, or on the other hand, he might end up saving Tyrion because without him, he would not get the castles he was promised!!!

BraveSirRobin posted 5/18/2019 21:56 PM

Bronn is still out there, so he might try to kill Tyrion, or on the other hand, he might end up saving Tyrion because without him, he would not get the castles he was promised!!!
Bronn is pretty much screwed out of those castles ether way. Cersei and Jamie are dead, and Daenerys is far more likely to execute Tyrion than she is to give Highgarden to a sellsword who supported the Lannisters.

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