SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello everyone. This is my first post... so here's a bit of background first.

My husband and I are still together since his EA of 3+ years came out nearly 4 years ago. The level of deception & disrespect is what I find the hardest. There was such intent to deceive AND he simultaneously seems to have been unaware that he was having an EA. Because it wasn't physical, I think he didn't think it was an A. There was clearly inappropriate flirting and sexualised conversation and he told her he loved her and that he would always put her first - so to me it's pretty obvious. Messages were deleted. Innocent messages were created so that if I ever checked the phone that's what I would find. The other element that really stings is that he shared really private things about me, moaned about me (in ways he never talked to me about), talked about our sex life... my privacy was breached.

We've had some MC which has helped to some degree. He does take responsibility for the A and hasn't ever sought to blame me. He is trying to work on himself. He's certainly got his good points and I am reluctant to lose those. We are distant emotionally but pretty good at the ordinary every day.

However...

He is not an emotionally attuned person. He wasn't before and isn't now. He's pretty disconnected emotionally (having an EA seems ironic?). He now knows this and is trying to work on it. But there's a long way to go. To me, he has never shown that he is sorry... he has said it... but I don't feel it. He can be very insensitive e.g. Last year he forgot Dday even though he also forgot it the previous year and I let him know how painful that was for me. He just looks complacent... I'm finding it hard to see a 'man fighting for his marriage'.

I'm not sure i will ever get the response I want / need - the heartfelt apology, maybe a grand gesture (second honeymoon, repeat of marriage vows, new ring..) and some ongoing effort to invest time and energy unto the relationship. I've always felt I carry our lives... if I don't initiate, arrange, suggest... there is just nothing... and post affair I just feel unwilling to be the one doing all that. But that means there's.. nothing. Just endless evenings of staring at screens. punctuated by difficult conversations where I try again to explain how I feel and what I would like.

Does this resonate with anyone? Thank you, wisdom appreciated.

This resonates with me, yes. The difference being my fWH used paid sex workers behind my back...and the extent of that history came out over several years of my asking him when he had started doing that. Eventually he admitted it pre-dated our entire relationship. Talk about feeling deceived!

It does seem different for such an emotionally disconnected person to create a "limerant relationship" with someone, as Sisoon would probably term it. But the part I really relate to is how you get along well enough, but there is no emotional perceptiveness on his part. There likely never was much, but you accepted him for his good points. Now you need something he seems poorly-equipped to generate.

I, too, have to generally be the spark plug in our life.

I have no other suggestions, sorry. Pressuring someone like that to change is not a solution I have found worked well. Don't know if shaking such a person up would even "wake them up." Doubtful. I hope others will offer you better suggestions.

I'm not sure i will ever get the response I want / need - the heartfelt apology, maybe a grand gesture (second honeymoon, repeat of marriage vows, new ring..) and some ongoing effort to invest time and energy unto the relationship. I've always felt I carry our lives... if I don't initiate, arrange, suggest... there is just nothing... and post affair I just feel unwilling to be the one doing all that. But that means there's.. nothing. Just endless evenings of staring at screens. punctuated by difficult conversations where I try again to explain how I feel and what I would like.

Does this resonate with anyone? Thank you, wisdom appreciated.

Hi TakingUpSpace.

It does resonate, I can relate well.

I am both past the limerance (my missing the couple pre affair) and the sadness. She is getting right now into limerance and effort to keep up the relationship. I am not closed but stopped making effort either.

Earlier like you, it was all on me keeping the connection alive.
The only difference compared to your WH, we were not yet married and lived in different countries at the time of her affairs. And she felt absolutely nothing when those were over. But she is not just avoidant, she is diagnosed emotional unavailable. She is finally working on this in IC.

The moment I finally stepped back is when she started to pursue, but she has still unresolved those issues.

You had MC but did your husband try to have IC and therapy to understand his issues with attachment?
He might be avoidant or have a similar situation like mine, the fact that he had an EA hints to a person that is craving closeness but he is afraid to have it with his closest person.

I can't do more than recommending IC, it sounds like fearful - avoidant attachment style, only a good therapist can find it out. These behavior can change if the person puts in the work and can become secure attachment.

If that is still important for you you may try to have this conversation.

I also think IC is important if he never went. It’s not a magical cure, but it can help with self awareness and provide tools for being more effective in forming connection, communication, coping, etc.

I do relate to it. My husband is maybe more attuned than what you describe. But we have issues that I try and communicate, ask for what I want, he does it for a while and it trails off and I have to keep having the conversation. It’s crazy making. I can’t decide if he doesn’t care, doesn’t understand, or is just lazy in those areas. It’s not across the board. I guess for me I expect that we won’t feel aligned on everything, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you should do.

I have passive aggressively done these things back to him and when he comments I have said "I am trying to help you understand how I feel about it." It’s not a healthy way to go about it and I am not making that as a recommendation, I am just expressing that I get frustrated enough to be petty which is not really aligned with who I aspire to be. I just get so sick of explaining it to him, him saying he understands and then..nothing.

Sometimes I see how much effort and attention he puts into the details of his business and his hobbies and I think- make this a hobby. Pay attention to this.

Also he does good to remember birthdates in our family, he doesn’t remember the dday of when I found out about his affair, he doesn’t even know the date of the dday that he found out about my affair. Those things would never occur to him and he was the original bs. The first few years I would point out it’s approaching (because many people here has made me aware of this issue) I would ask what does he need most from me right now, on the day, etc. he was pretty indifferent so eventually I stopped bringing it to his attention. The other day I told him we had a bday dinner Monday for our daughter, he completely forgot and almost worked through it and missed it. I had called several times but he didn’t hear his phone. Sounds suspicious but he runs heavy equipment and it was noisy.

Anyway mostly just commiserating.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:32 PM, Wednesday, January 14th]

Anyway mostly just commiserating.

I read several post of your and I can say you made a lot of self work and growth, and you are able to read through emotion and give sound advice.

Is natural you feel frustration since your partner like the OP's is not matching your energy and effort.
To both of you I am sure you will be rewarded in the end, either by moving your partners or moving yourself to a better understanding.

I think in her case is much bigger of an issue because it doesn’t sound like her husband worked on reconciliation.

We both did a lot in that regard and so that part is a bit easier to put away and move on from. Also we are going in 9 years out form mine and 6 from his so at some point, it’s just more life than it is about the affair.

I think in my case it’s just marriage. It’s not ever going to be perfect. I am happy with my marriage, the things I am talking about are maybe just in specific areas that I realize may never change and are not deal breakers. So overall I am not sure it’s helpful, but unrelated to the less emotionally attuned (there has always been a wide gap there between us, most of it is better simply because I do not bury my frustration any longer, or hide feelings. In addition I have learned to think through some of my needs and get them met through my friendships with other women)

I also think I was drawn to her bae because if I said what I have grown the most in, I am far less bothered by taking up space in my relationships.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:38 PM, Wednesday, January 14th]

Because it wasn't physical, I think he didn't think it was an A. There was clearly inappropriate flirting and sexualised conversation and he told her he loved her and that he would always put her first - so to me it's pretty obvious. Messages were deleted. Innocent messages were created so that if I ever checked the phone that's what I would find. The other element that really stings is that he shared really private things about me, moaned about me (in ways he never talked to me about), talked about our sex life... my privacy was breached.

Me,exactly. After 43 years he reached out to his AP from 1979, one I knew from a previous PA in 1977. It was all planned with his sisters help (her friend then and now). "Just calling an old friend to catch up" he said. Nothing to worry about. That’s why he hid it, tried to deceive me, betrayed me, deleted everything and threw me under the bus. In his eyes she could do no wrong and he holds her on a pedestal. He even had the nerve to say to me "what did she ever do to you?". What an asshole. Sounds like your husband and mine are twins, very little remorse and a total lack of respect. Like your life, mine is parallel in that our days are watching television and mundane discussion about current events. I find it very hard to voice my needs so silence fills the gaps. To top it off he had a heart attack Dec 20 and now I get the added pleasure of looking after him. There is no justice in infidelity.

Because it wasn't physical, I think he didn't think it was an A. There was clearly inappropriate flirting and sexualised conversation and he told her he loved her and that he would always put her first - so to me it's pretty obvious.

I gained a different (I believe deeper, holistic) understanding of sex, which made far more clear to me where boundaries must be set in an honest relationship between two partners.

In my view is not limited to the act of intercourse or self indulgent psychical pleasure, as it is usually portrayed.
This is as limiting as having a full course meal and only focusing on the dessert or the "being stuffed" feeling at the end. There is so much more.

Sex is the physical and emotional manifestation of a intimate connection between 2 people.

What I mean is when the interaction between 2 people who can have attraction for the opposite gender (or same depending the sexual orientation) manifest in any way that creates a connection that crosses into intimate, it is already sex.

Emotional affairs are well within that territory, it is shared intimacy with another person who is not you partner, it is sex even if there was no physical exchange.

It helps to understand where to set boundaries in grey areas, where the lines are blurred.

Think as an example when an interaction crosses into flirtation becoming truly inappropriate. If two people keep it to 'flattery' and 'homage' it stays within your boundaries, it is friendly, respectful and detached.

But if you start to feel that elicits an intimate, emotional connection, it entered the area of "sex" so it is the moment that your boundary must be enforced with a hard "No. This stops now" if you have a connection with a partner that you want to protect and preserve.

We all know inside what we are doing, when we chase that feeling of the connection when the air becomes electric and the emotional spark draws you into each other. Even if you keep it at that, if you chase it and do not prevent it, you are already having sex with the other person. You just tell yourself that until intercourse is 'nothing bad'. But it is an excuse, minimizing our guilt.

I perfectly understand yours and TakingUpSpace feelings about this, because you know it too. EA is an A full stop. The only upside is you might skip the STI check, but in all is sexual in nature not matter how the WS tries to paint it.

I really appreciate the replies... thanks everyone. It's such a lonely road. Though I do have friends I have confided in, I don't know anyone who's been through anything remotely similar.

It's kind of shocking to read of your experiences... and see my own among them. So much heartache.

Supresse - absolutely... I have really lost hope that anything will spark a response, even leaving. You've been through the mill... no easy answers but it helps to feel I'm not the only one. Thanks.

BackfromtheStorm - thank you for your thoughts. The MC told me he is 'emotionally unavailable'. He's not keen to seek IC - says he wouldn't know what to say. It's like most other things.. without me, it doesn't happen or falls flat. I agree it doesn't need to include the act of sex to be a sexual or physical betrayal. STI check - still important I think... when someone has lied that much... who knows what I don't know.

hikingout - oh yes... the crazy making - is it that he doesn't care, is not able, is unaware... - and for me there's a round of 'is it me, am i expecting too much' that sings alongside. How to stop asking these questions / or preferably settle the answer to them???

Fracturedfool - that sounds so so hard. I'm finding it hard enough to accept the status quo... but it sounds like the scales have tipped and become even harder for you. Not only are you dealing with all that happened but now to need to find the generosity to be carer... it sounds a big ask.

Anyway, mainly to say thanks for listening and taking the time and care to reply.

I guess I just hoped the shock of it all would lead to greater change.

BackfromtheStorm - thank you for your thoughts. The MC told me he is 'emotionally unavailable'. He's not keen to seek IC - says he wouldn't know what to say. It's like most other things.. without me, it doesn't happen or falls flat. I agree it doesn't need to include the act of sex to be a sexual or physical betrayal. STI check - still important I think... when someone has lied that much... who knows what I don't know.

Oh yes, absolutely check for STI, it is important to care about your health, my comment about it was "in abstraction" (if truly there was no physical intercourse or exchange you are STD risk free, but for the rest it was still sex, still betrayal). WS lie a lot especially during the DDays, even if you are in the process of reconciliation expect the lies will keep going, it will take time for complete honesty to emerge, that requires acceptance of his actions, guilt (not just shame), accountability.

Be just aware (not to demoralize you but not to be blindsided) that when the truth will start replacing the lies it can hurt more, you will need that clarity to heal from this trauma still, think like reopening the wounds to clean out the pus, it hurts but then it can heal properly.

Know you can find a shoulder here for when that moment comes, I feel you have an inner fire, so you will make it through.

Emotionally unavailable, so he is like my wife.

I know what you are feeling. I too carried the weight of the relationship for 17 years.

It was confusing to understand initially because is a bit different from fearful - avoidant (though she has that too) --> that is when they feel emotionally connected they pull back, run away paradoxically "afraid of ruining a good thing, they must run away not to destroy it" (no logic, emotions, that's why does not make sense), then come back, repeat, is hot and cold.

E.Unavailable does not exactly mean he does not have emotion, he does and need them (hence the EA), it means there is something blocking the emotions when they become intense, like a "safety lock" it shuts them down, passes through 'logic' so the person feels suddenly cold right when they were about to finally 'open up'.

And it is very frustrating when you love this person, so I feel you.

Think that it is a survival strategy, often the partner learned early in their childhood, often with their parents.

And in therapy they will defend it like hell at first, before realizing it.

In My wife's case whenever she, as a child, was searching an emotional connection or feeling strongly for her father or mother they pulled back or even punished her because "that is not the proper behavior of a proper girl" - all form, no human warmth - and that was traumatic, so she learned instinctively whenever she felt happy, sad, joyful, needing their attention, her system shut down her emotion, she becomes cold, puts on her "proper persona"('fucking mask' I call it) and acts detached, you can see in the eyes and the tension of the expression, is self containment, painful to see from the lover's side.

Therapy can help, it is a huge mess and our WS are in the high risk category for betrayal and self sabotage, but I like to let you know it is possible for the partner to heal from this if they acknowledge and accept it and put in the work.

Expect the path you will walk will have a lot of disconnections and rewriting the narrative. That is why he will forget dates, change narrative and details about the betrayals sometimes to an extent that will make you doubt of your of his sanity because it will create inconsistencies that can drive you nuts.

An example to be prepared: my wife once rewritten her first betrayal as "I left her because I was jealous of her so after I broke up, she naturally got together with the OM ---> hence no betrayal ever happened.

She told it with a straight face, like speaking normally, casually about anything else. I had to ask her straight "is this how it played out?" and she was shocked to realize what her mind did, because obviously she knows he was having sex with the OM before me coming to Poland, and she broke up with me.

I do not know if this is typical or just her, as I do not know many WS who are emotionally unavailable, but I want to give you a heads up just in case, to R you need to rebuild trust, and this stuff will reset your trust to zero (even if they are not consciously lying, their 'logical mind' is lying to them first to preserve their emotional detachment and self image).

Is not the kind of 'good news' you might have hoped for, but it is knowledge that you can hopefully use to protect your emotions while going through R with him.

Best of luck, and hopefully you will crack his fucking mask / armor with your love and emotional maturity.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:19 AM, Friday, January 16th]

You are so kind to take the time to reply so fully. Thank you.

It's invaluable to learn from others who have trodden something of a similar path.

E.Unavailable does not exactly mean he does not have emotion, he does and need them (hence the EA), it means there is something blocking the emotions when they become intense, like a "safety lock" it shuts them down, passes through 'logic' so the person feels suddenly cold right when they were about to finally 'open up'.

This really makes a lot of sense to me... the logic gets in the way. I hope my gut sense of my husband has always been right.. that he is in fact a good man underneath but that it's quite hard to reach that part. He often gives an impression of being cold / indifferent. That's always been true ... and since the affair came to light this is more than I can cope with sometimes. And yet... I'm still here. I think because it still feels there is too much to lose. That if we could just get past the defences... something more is possible - probably nothing dramatic but just something warmer and more connected.

you can see in the eyes and the tension of the expression, is self containment, painful to see from the lover's side.

- Oh my goodness.... yes. His eyes - blank.... almost looking through me rather than at me. Body, absolutely rigid like stone. Is that similar to what you see? It's so hard to be on the receiving end of when what I am needing is reassurance / comfort / understanding. It's not always but tends to appear just when it's least helpful.

Expect the path you will walk will have a lot of disconnections and rewriting the narrative. That is why he will forget dates, change narrative and details about the betrayals sometimes to an extent that will make you doubt of your of his sanity because it will create inconsistencies that can drive you nuts.

This very much describes what has been happening. One day we talk and I feel we have shared understanding... then later another conversation seems to reveal he thinks something completely different... it's so unreliable... and isn't helping with trying to regain trust. In the end I wrote a letter to him laying out everything that had happened by my understanding and how I felt and asked him to write a letter in reply... just so I've something a little more concrete. It's helped a bit.

I appreciate both your warnings of difficulties that are likely as well as your encouragement that the path has hope. Thank you and I wish you all the best too with your journey.

- Oh my goodness.... yes. His eyes - blank.... almost looking through me rather than at me. Body, absolutely rigid like stone. Is that similar to what you see? It's so hard to be on the receiving end of when what I am needing is reassurance / comfort / understanding. It's not always but tends to appear just when it's least helpful.

Picture perfect. Apparently we deal with the same "fucking mask" as I call it.

For me it works teasing and irony lately, we have a kind of password, we established that "mask" is her "ego" and her "ego" is the girl who "belongs to the OM" because is what pushed her to pursue the betrayal.

so when she goes into that blank state I tease something like "Hey, talking to my girl inside there, tell that bitch of you ego to fuck off, you know I don't give a shit to talk to her", she smiles or laugh and it cracks a bit the armor in those moment, but is a temporary fix we found, is not resolving the patterns behind.

I think they get stuck when the emotions need to be expressed by words, then that 'logic' (is not really that logical, is detached nonsense pretending to be logic) cold mask hijacks the feelings and starts performing.

Another thing that works is physical intimacy, during sex she can let go and surrender to connection (and I mean sex both in the holistic sense and in the narrower sense of intercourse. One you can try all the time, touches, looks, teasing, body language, the other... well obviously can't be always possible)

I feel your frustration, is worse than purely avoidant partners in some ways, especially since you seem the kind of girl who seek a secure attachment (I do a well). But we have who we have as partners, you may try some of these tactics and see if you can bypass the armor weakspots.

I feel their blockage is where words and metal patterns can take over, the spots where words cannot act seems way softer and there you "feel your partner's feelings".

Let me know if something works for you