SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

WS attempting to reconcile. 4 years together, 6 of affiliation with BS.
Cheated with his Brother(one time thing that happened and we were caught by BS after the interaction) this happened about 3 weeks ago, and attempting to reconcile per BS. In need of advice on my part on navigating the rapidly changing emotions BS has. I know they are to be expected but I'm having a really hard time going through the motions, as is he. One minute he wants to leave and then the next is saying that's the last thing he wants to do. He also is saying thay he wants me to "make this better". I'm trying to be as transparent and honest as possible with him, im answering all of the questions he has even if it's for the 100th time, anything he asks me to do I will. Its hard to shoe remorse becsude he gets upset if i seem upset, im not sure what else to do. I have enrolled myself in IC and have been meeting with a relationship coach to help understand why i did this/let this happen to our relationship. I know how hurt he is from experience, I know the shakes and the nausea that comes with the feelings. I just need any sort of advice on how to navigate this so that we can reconcile approrpiatley. At the end of the day, I just want us to do what's best for us and I really want that to be staying together, but I don't know if he is able to look/move past this. Any tips for showing your transparency in trying to reconcile?

Hi MXR, I'm sorry you're here. None of us on this forum thought we ever would be.

So, for your situation, it looks like you're falling under a double betrayal. Your AP (affair partner) was your BH's (betrayed husband) brother. Not just you, but his own brother betrayed him. That's doubly shocking and painful to him. The 2 people who should have his back went behind it and stabbed him. At the same time. I'm not saying this to beat you up, but to establish the level of damage you AND his brother have done.

What's the bones of the situation? You said you've known each other six years, have been married 4. Answering the following can help us get you the advice you can best use in your situation.

-Do you have kids? (how many, how old)

-When did you and his brother first have inappropriate contact? (flirting, suggestive interactions, etc)

-How was BH's relationship with his brother before this?

-Is NC with his brother even possible?

-What experience did you have with betrayal prior to this?

It looks like you've already taken some good first steps. You're getting into IC, you want to know your whys (as in WHY am I here, WHY did I allow myself to betray my hubby?). Digging deep is the first step in making yourself a safe partner again.

Two books to read that are standard advice around here: "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from an Affair" and "NOT 'Just Friends.'" They're both on Amazon and a lot of local libraries have them.

As for your BH's reactions, it's really going to be a roller coaster for a while. He doesn't even knows what he wants right now, let alone who he can trust and where he goes from here. His world has been shaken to its foundations. Please understand that when you are reacting in an upset manner, he's reading that as defensiveness. It's natural for us to feel defensive when we have a wildcat of a spouse coming after us in their pain and rage. What helped a lot for me and my BH was to take time outs when things get too heated. We didn't learn this technique until about a year in, and when I first started enforcing the boundary, he was hurt even more- felt like I was stonewalling him. When I had to take a time out, I'd say: "This discussion is overwhelming to me and I need a minute to calm myself down. I want to answer your questions, and I will come back in X minutes when I am calmer." After a while though, he realized that his approach wasn't working and we were only upsetting each other more, rather than achieving any actual understanding. It took us a TON of practice and is a skill we're still working on.

Hang in there, keep giving him your love, keep doing little kindnesses for him, keep answering his questions. You guys can make it through this stage. Just be prepared for a LONG roller coaster ride.

[This message edited by MIgander at 5:34 PM, Friday, February 11th]

yikes, this is messy! ... welcome, m17. lots of hard work ahead, for sure.

first things first--

breathe and listen. listen and breathe. and then breathe and listen some more.

resist the urge to make things better. resist the urge to downplay the situation. own this horrible, insulting, messy betrayal. you did this thing. accept it and attempt to sit with it (don't try to run from it).

when your husband asks for space, give it to him (don't suffocate him). when you need space, give it to yourself (you deserve some time to re-set as well).

that being said, stay open. stay available. stay connected as much as possible.

i encourage to find professional help from a marriage counselor, life coach, pastor, or rabbi (someone who can offer you help, support, and guidance).

rooting for you and your marriage! sunny

One of our MC's once told gave me this analogy. Think of recovering from infidelity sort of the same way you might recover from a shattered knee. A shattered knee takes time to heal, and the time it takes cannot be rushed. You could throw 100 doctors and a million dollars at the problem, but it wouldn't make your knee heal any faster. It takes as long as it takes, you'll have good moments and bad moments, it's going to hurt while it heals, and it WILL take a long time because that's how healing works. And once it heals, it'll never be the same as it once was.

Even under the best of circumstances, it typically takes 2-5 years just to recover from the trauma of infidelity. And that doesn't mean "it's all over now", it's more like, "the knee is healed, but now we need to learn to walk again, need to build up strength that was lost, need to regain balance and movement, need to work of range of movement, etc. Again, infidelity is similar. We need to rebuild something new, because what once was... was destroyed when we had an affair. It just was. And that sucks to no end, but that's the truth of it.

What MIgander said is great advice, especially the point about this being a double-betrayal. In other words, two shattered knees. We all have our own sense of safety and trust. Every time the light turns red and we cross the street, we trust that the cars lined up next to us aren't going to hit the gas and mow us down. But they could. And if they did, it would change our ability to trust them anymore. Your husband had a sense of safety and trust with you, and likely with his brother. He expected to not be betrayed. He expected you to have his back, not to be sticking a knife in it. But now it feels like the rug was pulled out from under him, and nothing and no one can really feel safe to him right now. His world view has changed and not in a good way.

I don't say these things to make you feel badly, rather, I just want you to get into his head. He can't trust you right now, that's obvious, but what's less obvious is that he can't trust ANYONE really. Your wife, your family, they are supposed to be the one thing in this world you CAN trust. When that is no longer true, what do you do? Nothing feels safe anymore. No one can be trusted even if you've trusted them all your life, heck, especially if you trusted them!

The best way to help him for now is to do what you've been doing. Answer questions. Don't get defensive. And be prepared to bear the burden of a lot of anger and pain.

The other thing is to start taking steps to work on yourself. He sees you as someone who cheated on him and who is capable of betraying him in nothing short of a spectacular way. Unless you change, and unless he can see that change, feel it, know it, trust it.. then he has no reason to want you back. Letting him know how sorry you are is one thing, but that still changes nothing. You can be sorry and still be the same unsafe person. He needs to see that you not only understand how badly you hurt him, but he also needs to see you taking steps to work through that, to understand how and why you cared so little for his welfare, and cared so little for your own self-respect, that you allowed this to happen. Maybe, just maybe, if you work to become someone better, he might see that and be willing to consider any kind of a relationship with you.

Again, this isn't going to happen any time soon. So buckle in. Recovering from infidelity isn't for wimps or quitters, and it's going to take a lot of humility, bravery and determination to do the work you need to do. And there are still no guarantees.

Keep coming back here. There is a great amount of experience and wisdom to be found here. It can also be brutal sometimes, but even in the brutality, if you read between the lines, you'll see someone giving you truth. You take what you need and leave what doesn't work.

Hi, Mx. Welcome to SI.

MIgander started you off with some solid advice and good questions, so I will add something from the skeptics corner. It's not impossible to get caught on the first offense, but it is pretty rare. It would be even more surprising when both people involved have a relationship with the BS, because I would think you and the brother would both be doubly cautious about covering your tracks. So just in case it's applicable, I will caution you not to minimize the affair to your BH. If you cheated more than just the time he knows about, or even were just talking about future infidelity, you need to come clean about all of it now.

WS sometimes rationalize that we are "sparing" our BS by giving them the bare outline. I certainly convinced myself of that. My husband knew that the OM and I slept together. He knew that we exchanged "I love yous." In my mind, he knew the worst, so I believed that was enough information for him to make the decision about whether or not to reconcile. I had to learn the hard way that "enough" is determined by the BS, not the WS. Hiding part of the affair was still a violation of his consent. He couldn't reasonably decide whether to forgive me if he didn't know what he was forgiving.

There's also the argument that lying is safe because there's no way for him to find out but confession. The first problem with that plan is that it's cruelly manipulative towards someone whom you are trying to convince to trust you. The second and more practical issue is that you can't know what the future holds. He may learn something by mistake. He may hammer at you endlessly until you crack. The brother may have a crisis of conscience. Someone else may have seen or heard something and decide your BH has a right to know.

Whatever way it happens, when more information comes out about an already disclosed affair, we call it another D-Day. It is just as devastating the second time around. All trust is set back to zero. The BS goes through all of it over again -- the shock, the rage, the grief, the sense of having been made a fool. In some cases, they would have been able to get past whatever the WS was still hiding, but only if it all came out on D-Day 1. Now that same information is a total deal breaker because the WS has definitively proven they can never be trusted. Even if the second round actually does disclose everything, they are unlikely to believe it. Why should they?

If you really were caught after the first offense, consider yourself very lucky that you have relatively little to tell. But if not, please, please do not minimize to your BH. Tell him everything. The difference between the pain he's feeling now and the pain of a full account is far less than the pain of two separate D-Days. Would you rather be burned by two hot pokers at the same time, or by one at two different times, having gone through a long and painful healing process in between?

You're planning to spend your life with this man, and you don't want a lie festering between you. Mine came out thirty years later and blew up my world.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 7:32 PM, Friday, February 11th]

Hi and welcome to SI.

In my experience there is somewhat of a natural progression, an order of sorts.  One that requires a day by day projection rather than looking too far ahead.

Who knows what your future holds, but if you focus on today you will find its easier to manage. That's its just today. Sometimes I had to focus on the next 10 minutes just to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

I agree too that you are taking some very important first steps. I also agree that you should order "how to help your spouse heal from your affair" like, today. Right now. Put that in your shopping cart and order it asap. I always thought of it as my Bible the first few months.

You are in a good position 3 weeks out to minimize more damage to get things "right" a lot sooner than most. You're not going to fix this in a sprint you need to prepare yourself for a marathon. As you move through the process, you'll hit different stages. Some stuff you'll need to hear from more than one voice and more than one time for it to finally sink in and make sense. 

One of the natural steps to take first, be proactive. Don't wait for anything to just happen, make it happen. Educate yourself. Read as much infidelity material as you can get your hands on. Anything that is directly/indirectly related.

And while there is absolutely a need for you to begin the work on yourself right away, there is a greater need to help stop the bleeding from the double knife wound to his back. Its a delicate balance. The highs and lows of the roller coaster are ever changing. And when its low, it takes him straight to hell. Its your job to meet him there, with courage.

Its not easy, you are seeing it now. You have to be the brave one, the stable one when he's low. You can't make it about you too. You'll have to find a coping mechanism that works for you so you can be there for him when he needs you. You're going to face a lot of anger from him, rage, heart breaking pain. But, you'll need to figure out how you can step up. I can't tell you how because we don't share the same brain. Again you're going to have to be proactive and learn what works.

Often times early on I felt like a complete jerk blowing so many chances to show my ex how committed I was to the process. Even though it is hard for you to hear, him letting you know about the hurt, frustration, and fear takes a huge amount of trust on his part to share that with you. It's going to be hard to find a way to really communicate with each other right now. The first and most important thing to keep in mind is to understand your own habits and patterns and then change them accordingly.

Have you asked or has he shared what he needs from you?

MIGander,

1. We do have a child together, a two year old and that's all.

2. I noticed around a year ago that his brother's hands would linger at any chance they had to meet mine, I also noticed him with lingering stares and also noticed that he would stare from across the room at events or when we were with friends. I did bring this up to BS and he said that it was his brother being his brother and that was it. I asked if he noticed specifically him trying to touch my hands, and asked him to pay attention to that. He said he never noticed.

3. Prior to this relationship, I was in a severely abusive relationship for 3 years. My ex partner cheated on my over 12 times. Both physical and virtual. My relationship with BS started during the peak of the abuse. I told him what situation I was in and I explained to him that at that time, I could not leave. He chose to try to talk to me anyway, we had a fallout due to now BS' emotions interfering. He would stalk my social media and see old pictures of my ex and I and get upset so we went about 2 months without talking or seeing one another. After that, I broke up with my ex and moved in with my parents. We started dating immediately after. I did cheat on my ex with my current partner and BS knew 100% of the situation.

3. Brother was very close to both of us but only after our relationship started. Prior to us dating, he had almost no contact with his brother and they did not get along. Brother came around 2ish years into our relationship and started spending a lot of time with us when we first got an apartment together (3~ years ago). Within the last year they have grown closer, brother is always here and has been very involved in "us" (i.e no alone time, dates were more often than not us 3, every weekend he slept over).

4. I can go NC with his brother. His mom is and has always been very involved in his life and is demanding they keep their family together. BS wants to have a conversation with all 3 of us and BS's mom won't allow it due to fear that they will hurt one another. I'm not sure how long BS can go NC with his family intervening. That is a frequent conversation we have had is how will anything be "normal again".
This truly was a first time offense. There was no physical anything before this, and when I thought there was something going on he dismissed me. his brother has not been honest with anything since it happened. He has claimed that he was asleep, that he was drunk, that he was on drugs, and that he doesn't remember anything.

[This message edited by Mxrowley17 at 7:45 PM, Friday, February 11th]

This truly was a first time offense. There was no physical anything before this, and when I thought there was something going on he dismissed me.

Well, there's definitely an advantage to having less to confess.

Let's talk about how you got from point A, where your husband made you feel ridiculous for suspecting that your BIL was attracted to you, to point B, where you ended up interacting sexually. Was it an "in your face, H, I bet you'll believe me now" moment? Was it an EA that built over time? How did your H find out? What parallels do you see between the choice to cheat on your ex with your H and the choice to cheat on your H with his brother?

Also, I just read your thread in Reconciliation, and you need to consider your physical safety first and foremost. If your H feels your infidelity gives him the right to hit you, then a lot of my usual advice goes right out the window.

Hi MXR,

Wow, between this new info and your other post, there is a lot to work through here.

What is concerning to me is how your BS had no problem intervening in your prior relationship with your abusive ex. It seems like you both struggle with boundaries. I understand how muddled and foggy things can become when you are in the immense pain of being abused and how any positive interaction at all can be welcome. I can also get how frustrating it can be when someone you care about is in a dangerous situation and doesn't remove themselves from it. So, both sides of your early situation were tough.

Really though, I am concerned how you went from one abusive relationship into what appears to be another without taking time to heal yourself first. I certainly used attention from boyfriends to medicate my own pain and self loathing from my sisters perpetual abuse growing up, so I can understand the why of it. However, it may be really important for you moving forward to focus on the trauma created from your abusive ex.

What was your childhood like? Usually we don't go from a happy childhood with a healthy family dynamic into an extremely abusive partnership. Unless you were completely duped as many BS on this site testify to. It seems like your picker for these kinds of relationships is broken.

Another thing that concerned me about your posts is how you BS dismissed your concerns about his brother. That seems at the least to show disrespect to your feelings and at most disrespect to your safety. If your best friend were in a situation where her BF's roommate was giving her SERIOUSLY creepy vibes, I bet you would advise her to have her BF kick him out or for her to move out.

The line about your BS's brother maybe drinking too much or being on drugs is very concerning to me. Why was he allowed to live with you guys if he had these kinds of habits? You have a small very vulnerable child at home who needs your protection. I don't allow people who are drug users to be around my kids and they are much older, in middle and upper elementary. You BS being ok with his brother being around his child in a high or drunk state is very concerning and unsafe for them.

That his mother is interfering for the sake of family unity makes me concerned too. This is rug sweeping on a grand scale. The family unity she is desiring is a lie. How much else has she belittled, dismissed and enabled in her sons' lives? Do you want your child to grow up in a family that is happy to keep these kinds of secrets and pretend its ok when it is very much NOT? These are habits they will learn too- denial and enabling of bad behavior. Isn't it better your kid grows up in an environment where the adults have the courage and strength to be accountable for their mistakes and the honesty to admit their struggles? We all have our failings. The only difference between a healthy response and an unhealthy response to great failures is to have a great courage to face them head on and overcome them.

You are only as sick as your secrets and only as loved as you are honest. It sounds like your in-laws are very intent on keeping everyone down in their sickness. True love calls for honesty in everything and demands the true healing of the loved one.

You wouldn't tell your best friend that has cancer that you love them too much to allow them to surgically remove the tumor, would you?

Do you think this family of which you are a member is willing to even see the oncologist? What about you? Do you want to heal?

** Ugh, my phone is possessed. Typos, typos, typos.

[This message edited by MIgander at 2:15 PM, Monday, February 14th]

He chose to try to talk to me anyway, we had a fallout due to now BS' emotions interfering. He would stalk my social media and see old pictures of my ex and I and get upset so we went about 2 months without talking or seeing one another. ... I did cheat on my ex with my current partner and BS knew 100% of the situation.

Sigh, rereading your post and trying to piece together your situation. The fact that your BS would stalk your social media and be comfortable cheating with you... Then his anger at the pictures. Add that to his physical abuse... SEVERAL times after DDay? AND his denial of his brother's predatory behavior?

Brother was very close to both of us but only after our relationship started... i.e no alone time, dates were more often than not us 3, every weekend he slept over

Why did BS's brother only come around once you were in the picture? The whole lack of separation between you and BH and his brother is very odd. Also odd that your BH didn't seem to want to have private time with you. Your, your marriage and your child are his first responsibilities. NOT his brother.

his brother has not been honest with anything since it happened. He has claimed that he was asleep, that he was drunk, that he was on drugs, and that he doesn't remember anything.

Of course he's not been honest- that would mean he's responsible for his behavior. If he's so inebriated or high that he doesn't remember anything, WHY is he in your life? WHY are you letting someone so destructive and hell bent on living the "high" life near your family, near your child?

I am genuinely concerned for you and your living situation. How is it that BH's brother was allowed such access that you could have oral sex? One doesn't simply say, "OOPS, my mouth just happened to be there!" There's more to the story, and the first part of your healing is to be honest about it. How did you guys ever manage to go from hand touching to full blown oral sex? Especially since you were uncomfortable with the brother's attentions.

Were you REALLY that uncomfortable? Or were you terrified? Either one deserves examination.

IF you were terrified of BH's brother, you need to GET OUT. Take your child and leave- go back to your parents if they are a safe spot. Your child is being exposed to drug use and inappropriate, irresponsible adults behaving in dangerous ways. Your child is not in a safe place. If there's so much drug use and drinking going on that it's plausible that your AP's memory could be affected by it, you need to get your self and your child out. If your BH is being physically abusive to you, what's to say he won't be towards your child. Even if he doesn't strike your child, your child is watching and learning it's "acceptable" for husbands to hit their wives. This is the model of marriage you are training your child to expect. MOVE OUT NOW.

You don't have to D. Just please, for your child's sake, get to a safe place. There are women's shelters for domestic violence. You are in a DV situation now, WITH YOUR CHILD. Please, reach out, get the help. You and your BH can revisit where the M is and how to heal, but right now, he is a danger to you, your child and himself.

MIgander, I feel like these are excuses for him to not own up to his behavior. You did open my eyes to a different perspective, regardless if he was that inebriated the fact that he can say he was is enough of a bad influence to not allow my child to be around.
It's really hard to explain the magnitude of the situation I'm finding I don't have the right words. Bear with me please.
His brother and I have been alone many times together. We've ran errands together, spent days around one another, just really anything a "normal person" does. He has came to doctors appointments for my son per his brother and has even been accused of being my partner when we have been out in public. I'm only saying these things to try and explain how involved he really was in our lives.
I recently switched jobs and have different hours and for a while didn't see brother as much as times prior. This night we were all hanging out watching t.v. BH and I hadn't spent a lot of time together and said that he was going to bed right after we put a show on. I was upset and refused to go to bed. I was drinking, but not inebriated or too drunk to remember. Brother was also drinking. He had a blood blister on his finger and asked if I could help him pop it. I agreed. I went downstairs to get a needle and paper towels. I couldn't open the entire blister with the needle and told him to bite the skin loose to release the rest of the blood under his skin (was on his thumb). This is when things turned other than platonic. Brother shoved his finger in my mouth, in a non friend manner. I pulled his finger out and was a little shocked, I was not sure what was going on or why he did that. I told him he needed to do it. He then asked if he could kiss me. I said okay. After we made out for a minute, I asked "what are we going to do about this?" To which he replied "can I perform oral on you" and I said "okay". The interaction lasted anywhere from 2-5 minutes and I ended it. Immediately after I heard BH downstairs calling for me. I had to adjust my pants and then he came in the room. Then attacked the both of us, more so me than Brother. Then chased me around the house attacking me as Brother was leaving.
As far as anything else, such as why BH is okay with Brother being so involved, I have no answers to. It has been an issue in the past between us where I have been upset that we truly have no alone time when his family is always around us. BH also holds resentment to me for how we got together.

Another thing, one year ago today brother spent valentines day with us. BH ended up drinking himself sick. *this was a point in time that BH had started to develop a drinking problem and has received the help he needed*
Like to the point he had to go to the hospital. Brother was there and comforted me with a hug. That was the first time we touched that I remember it wasn't like we were brother and sister in law.

Then attacked the both of us, more so me than Brother. Then chased me around the house attacking me as Brother was leaving.

That he attacked you more than his brother makes me wonder where BH's priorities are. I get that he could be more upset at his wife for the sexual betrayal than his brother (brother didn't make vows to him), however, it's an unwritten code that brothers moving in on their sister in laws is incestuous.

Another thing, one year ago today brother spent valentines day with us. BH ended up drinking himself sick. *this was a point in time that BH had started to develop a drinking problem and has received the help he needed*
Like to the point he had to go to the hospital.

This adds more background. BH has some serious demons that he needs to deal with before he can even begin to be in a real M with you. Is he still in AA or a counseling /group therapy program? Is he willing to continue working on his drinking? Really, if he's not aggressively working on this for himself, it needs to be addressed for your child.

Your child was only a baby and her father was getting drunk enough to need to visit the ER. How can this be a positive situation for anyone in your family? It sounds like at the very least he is being selfish and irresponsible. At the most, it is abusive to his child. Your kid isn't going to be "innocently unaware" for much longer- by the time they hit 3, kids form concrete memories and their initial emotional coping instincts are set. Do you want your child growing up in this insecure and neglectful environment? How can a father with a drinking problem be a positive parental caregiver to your child?

There's a lot of people here on SI (BS and WS both) who grew up in homes where alcoholism was a problem. It did NOT have a positive outcome in any cases. If it was the BS's childhood, their partner picker and expectations for loving relationships allowed them to enable their WS's bullshit for too long. For WS's, it created such a brokenness inside that they had to seek outside validation to fill their emotional voids. Cue the affair...

Brother was there and comforted me with a hug. That was the first time we touched that I remember it wasn't like we were brother and sister in law.

How was a comforting hug more than platonic? What happened to make it so? His brother sounds like a predator. These people have instincts and know when someone is weak and vulnerable to their advances. My AP was one such. I was having a mental breakdown and he moved in. BH's brother sensed your weakness and instead of keeping things brotherly, pushed his agenda on you. YUCK . Real men and real brothers see weakness, vulnerability (ESPECIALLY IN A FAMILY MEMBER) and work to protect them in their weak state. They don't make moves on vulnerable women.

BH did the same thing to you in your prior abusive relationship. He sensed your weakness, stalked your social media, disrespected your boundaries, participated in you cheating on your douchebag abusive BF. He was a predator. And it sounds like he,

holds resentment to me for how we got together.

That sounds like blameshifting for his choices in your initial relationship. He needs to own it and NOT BLAME YOU. He disrespected you from the get go- you told him to back off, but he persisted. THAT'S on HIM. What you need to own in that situation is why you accepted his attentions then.

Brother shoved his finger in my mouth, in a non friend manner. I pulled his finger out and was a little shocked, I was not sure what was going on or why he did that. I told him he needed to do it.

This amounts to sexual assault. Brother shoved himself inside you uninvited. What coping mechanism in you didn't walk away from this? If it were me, I would be terrified- brother had been making advances, BH had been belittling/ gaslighting me about the problem, I'm in a home with a small child and surrounded by predatory, selfish, abusive men. You weren't protected, you weren't cared for, you weren't valued or cherished.

Why did you invite the oral? Why did you consent to the kiss? Why didn't you get off that couch and go into the bathroom or your bedroom with BH? Walking away would have been effective in shutting down the interaction in a non-confrontational manner.

I get that you felt physically unsafe in your gut instincts- your husband was not protecting you and not even believing you.

For contrast, a healthy spouse would do the following: If I told my BH that one of his friends was creeping me out, he would not let that guy around the house or even allow him to socialize with me and our kids. Regardless of his feelings about the situation. BH can't stand my abuser sister. I don't force him to interact with her- I go alone to social functions where she will be present. It's difficult, but a sacrifice I make for his sake. Why wasn't your BH willing to shield you from this situation from the get go? He could have ensured his brother was NEVER alone with you, let alone practically living with you.

Boundaries need to be reworked all around before you can even be sure of living in a safe situation for yourself. Let alone for your child.

I'm having a hard time following the sequence of events here. Are the bedrooms downstairs and the communal living space up?

How did your BH know, from a different floor of the house, what you and BIL had just been up to?

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 12:10 AM, Thursday, February 17th]

BraveSirRobin, my house has two floors. One room downstairs (our bedroom), and 3 upstairs. Downstairs has living room 2x, bathroom, kitchen, and our room. Upstairs has 3 rooms. Our sons playroom, an extra bedroom (where everything happened) and a room we use for storage.

Bh walked in and said we looked like deer in headlights and that was how he knew. Our son woke up and was Bh was looking for me. If I stay up late, I'm typically found on the couch watching t.v. When he walked in, I was still fixing my pants. They were up at that point but weren't on right, and he noticed that.

MIGander, my responses to me feel like excuses but I'm going to say the same thing I've told anyone else. I froze. I was very shocked. I am in counseling and we have discussed my response and the relation to my past, this was my pervious response with my past SA's, but I should have said no and walked away. IC says I may have never established these boundaries, I have to agree slightly but still feels like an excuse. BH is still in counseling but doesn't do anything else for drinking. I will say that he has tremendously cut back and I was very proud of him. Within the last month, he has started drinking again. We've had conversations regarding his habits and he knows if he goes to far he's gone.

Hi MXR, wanted to let you know I'm not leaving you hanging.

I froze.

Fight, flight, freeze or fawn. Those are definitely common responses to trauma. I'm a fighter myself. Either way, I'm glad you're in counseling. Establishing boundaries has to be the hardest work I've ever done and it's taken a long time. Give yourself some grace on that- seeing the problem and what needs to be fixed is the first step.

Have you heard much about the "fawn" response? It's a newer one that's being recognized. Basically it's an enabling response to sudden fear in a dangerous situation. It's a method of appeasing our attacker (and you were attacked) in order to "lessen" the trauma of whatever comes next. I read up on it and it's a really big part of some of my responses to BH in our early marriage. People don't enable (ie: by giving permission for oral) because they REALLY truly want whatever it is that's being perpetrated upon them. It's a going along to get along. Definitely worth examining.

We don't have just a single coping mechanism in panic situations. Seems like everyone has their favorite, but there's a few secondary ones we use as well. Freezing (your primary response to shock) wasn't enough in your mind to get out of or ameliorate the situation. Thus the use of fawning. He was pushing for something sexual, you didn't see a way out (like walking away) and thus, the only way you could gain control was through enabling.

Did part of you want it too? Were you curious? There could be that as well. It seemed there may have been some build up with the brother and marriage troubles with your BH's drinking and gaslighting (over brother's advances) that contributed to the situation. THIS IS NOT TO "VICTIM BLAME"- ie: the girl must have wanted it- she dressed like she wanted it. However, there seemed to be several boundaries crossed in the months leading up to the incident. Times where you could have exerted a boundary and times where you sought the help and protection of your BH. How much was the response driven by curiosity/interest and how much was from the panic response?

I don't have answers to that or even any inkling of what that could be for you, but the questions are important to answer.

Keep up working on your boundaries. Ultimately we are our best source of safety and security. When you figure out more about where you stop and others begin, peace will come more naturally.