Newest Member: girlangry89

Just Found Out :
Feeling defeated

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beb252 ( Member #78948) posted at 11:55 AM on Wednesday, July 21st, 2021

Hi ASL,

Just checking in. How are things going?

posts: 376   ·   registered: Jun. 14th, 2021
id 8677203
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RubixCubed ( Member #51615) posted at 4:14 AM on Thursday, July 22nd, 2021

You need to cancel MC until your wife gets herself sorted, if she can. Your wife is broken, not the marriage. When/if you do resume MC DO NOT use the same one that she uses for IC. This is pretty much a conflict of interest and it never works out well for the Betrayed. They are usually blamed for the affair,(which it sounds like your MC was on the road to) because the counselor's first job is to help your wife, and second help your marriage. Helping you isn't in that equation.

"But I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd."

posts: 638   ·   registered: Feb. 2nd, 2016
id 8677407
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Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 11:43 PM on Thursday, July 22nd, 2021

Thanks for the update TWO.

Anger is a bitch. Keep up the IC re that. Are you smashing the weights in the gym to help get that stress and anger under control ?

Tell WW exactly how you feel don’t let her fall in the wo is me self pity and leave you to help yourself.

One day at a time.

Buffer

posts: 1191   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2019   ·   location: Australia
id 8677615
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13YearsR ( Member #58259) posted at 4:40 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

I invited OBS for dinner at my place but she declined.

Don't do that again. It's not your place to save the OBS and it's messy AF, regardless of whether or not you R.

Unless the A resumes, it's time for you to go NC with the OBS. You have all the info that you need from her.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. ~ Gloria Steinem

DDay 2004 Successful R and going on 33 years married

posts: 439   ·   registered: Apr. 13th, 2017   ·   location: TX
id 8677881
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 ASoreLoser (original poster New Member #78968) posted at 2:12 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

She keeps blaming my job! She keeps pointing out in our MC that I work too much - well I can't do anything about it because I work on wall st.! I didn't know that she hates the job that puts expensive clothes on her body, excessive food on her mouth, and the ability to raise 4 kids without any financial problems! Apparently, she likes the luxury my job gives her but she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

She always keeps bringing up the fact that bankers cheat on their wives! I repeatedly told her over the course of our marriage that that may be the case to most of my friends but that isn't me. I am aware of the stigma but I haven't cheated on her. She doesn't believe me because in her own words, "I wouldn't know because of all the time you're away, you could've been cheating on me too!". She then somehow conjured in her mind that I cheated on her before with a coworker I worked on with a deal. We worked late in the office! WE DIDN'T HAVE A 4 month long affair!

Somehow everything is turned on me. I really regret having sex with her because I lost the moral high ground. Just a week ago, she was walking on eggshells around me, now she acts like I did something wrong.

It doesn't really sound reassuring that she won't cheat on me again because she told me she cheated because she felt lonely because I was away 110 hours a week.

posts: 25   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2021
id 8678257
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beb252 ( Member #78948) posted at 2:23 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

Her remorseful act was only temporary. The love bombs and unlimited sex only lasted for 1 week. She now comes back to blaming it all on you. I wouldn't be surprised if she comes back running to her AP in a few days because in her own words, it's all about you and your work. You're all to blame for her actions. It's not about her. It's about you!

She's not really remorseful.

What are your plans now? Would you move forward on D since you're going in circles. In a few days she will be back to her true self, the one who's running around with her POSOM.

All the best!

posts: 376   ·   registered: Jun. 14th, 2021
id 8678258
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guvensiz ( Member #75858) posted at 2:33 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

She cheated on you and now you're trying to convince her that you didn't cheat on her.

You don't lose anything just because you had sex with her. Now you can go back to the days when you broke her AP's nose and your WW was worried about him and do what you should have done then.

posts: 478   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8678260
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This0is0Fine ( Member #72277) posted at 2:40 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

Fire the MC.

Sounds like she is getting away with blame shifting bullshit in session.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 1329   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8678262
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nekonamida ( Member #42956) posted at 2:51 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

ASL, STOP LISTENING. Stop letting her blame shift. Do you really believe that she would say and do nothing when she supposedly thought that you were cheating? Highly unlikely. This is all her desperately trying to take the heat off of herself and pin the blame on you.

Get rid of the MC. It's a huge waste of time and money. 180 her. No more sex. No more affection. Only talk about the kids and finances. If she wants back into your good graces, she can take responsibility and go to IC.

posts: 4964   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8678265
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HeartFullOfHoles ( Member #42874) posted at 3:40 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

ASL, your story sounds so much like mine. My ex absolutely loved her lifestyle, but had zero clue what was actually required to provide it. Once when having a conversation that she needed to curtail her spending so I could look for a less demanding job that would allow us to spend more time together she replied well you just need to find a less demanding job that pays more . I also had the I know you have had an affair accusation. It's heartbreaking, but all normal gaslighting and blame shifting from a broken person.

My guess is your wife thinks of herself as a good moral person just like mine and in my experience this makes them very prone to creating all kinds of lies to maintain their fantasy about who they think they are instead of who they really are. Part of these lies will inevitably turn into further accusations against you so be prepared.

BH - Tried to R for too long, now happily divorced
D-Day 4/28-29/2012 (both 48 at the time)
Two adult daughters

posts: 674   ·   registered: Mar. 24th, 2014
id 8678269
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ChamomileTea ( Member #53574) posted at 4:23 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

She keeps blaming my job! She keeps pointing out in our MC that I work too much -

What's your response to that when you're in MC? Is she allowed to get away with the blame-shift?? I think I might have mentioned this to you earlier, maybe not.. but you HAVE TO stand up for yourself in MC and not allow blame-shifts to stand. This is how MC inadvertently harm reconciliation efforts. They get busy trying to establish wrong on both sides, yadda, yadda, yadda... but adultery is NOT a marriage problem. It's a cheater problem. It's about the cheater, her flawed character, her lack of integrity, her lack of appropriate boundaries, and her relationship with her own values system.

I'm going to re-post you something on the "unmet needs" model of MC that's still popular with many MC's. It could be that you just need to fire this one and look for someone who will hold her feet to the fire on her poor character. I think that really depends on whether or not you're comfortable defending yourself. I really do believe that if you're going to do MC this early, you HAVE TO stand up to your WW and your MC when they have it wrong. If either tries to blame-shift toward you or the marriage, or if either tries to make excuses based on unmet needs, you should stop them right there and refuse to stand down until they recant. When a WS can get an excuse blessed by the MC, it's like it was blessed by the Pope. You'll never hear the end of it.

Anyway, I apologize if I reposted this earlier, but I really do think it's worthwhile for you to see what kind of harm the "unmet needs" fallacy can do. Honestly, your WW is so immature and childish that if it weren't for your FOUR Littles, I'd say your best bet is to divorce... and it still might be. That's your call. But I can see why you're trying.

My own WH went on a Craigslist binge six years ago, multiple partners, various degrees of emotional attachment. He even thought he was in love at one point. But ten years before that, I'd caught him out in some online shenanigans, porn, cybersexing, emotional affair, etc. In fact, I caught him out only two weeks before a planned meet-up. I'd already seen an attorney before I confronted him and I was bent on divorce, but he pretty much cried his way out of it and I settled on MC. As you might have guessed already, we too were bamboozled with the "unmet needs" model of therapy, which sounds so reasonable. I upped my wife game, and did my best pick-me polka, but within a couple of years, he was right back at it behind my back. By the time we reached the ten year mark, he had screwed up his nerve to go live and in person on Craigslist.

Of course, I was pretty shocked as you might imagine. I thought we were good. I thought his "needs" were met. Damned if I hadn't been turning myself inside out for a decade to make sure, right? The more I thought about it, the more I revisited what I knew about the "unmet needs model", the less it made sense. I was doing everything right and he still CHOSE to cheat.

Here's the fly in the "unmet needs" ointment...

Healthy ADULTS don't need to be validated. They validate internally. Healthy adults are self-fruitful in the matter of contentment and life satisfaction, and when things come up which make them unhappy, they address the cause and solve the problem. OTOH, the vast majority of cheaters cheat because they're seeking external validation. They are NOT emotionally healthy. They can't do it on their own. They've got a hole inside them and no amount of external validation will fill it. Certainly, the old and familiar validation of a spouse doesn't get the job done. Our "kibbles" are stale and boring. They don't create enough adrenaline anymore to make the cheater feel special. It's like getting an "atta boy" from your mom, right?

This is old pop-psy which is still being taught in schools and still selling books. But it's bullshit. NOTHING you can do (or fail to do) can MAKE another person throw away their core values and do something that's in this kind of opposition to good character. If you're a person who BELIEVES in fidelity, who VALUES fidelity, you don't cheat. End of story. Because when we truly value something we protect it. The cheater has a "but..." in his values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, but... not if my needs aren't being met." For people like you and me, we have a "so..." in our values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, so... I don't put myself in risky situations with the opposite sex." This is the BOUNDARY we create organically. We don't sit around planning it out. It just happens, because it's innate to our character to protect what we value. The cheater doesn't have those boundaries because he doesn't really honor his values. He only claims to.

I'm not saying that your marriage is over or that your WH can't change. What I am saying though is that this "unmet needs" model is NOT going to challenge him to clean up his flawed character. In fact, it allows him to offload responsibility onto the marriage and onto YOU. It's not your job to MAKE him feel (fill-in-the-blank-here). It never was. It's his job to control his feelings. You could have been doing everything exactly perfect for the entire length of your marriage, and he would still have cheated... because there's NOTHING in his character stopping him and he has no coping mechanism to fall back on when he feels unvalidated, inadequate, unappreciated, etc.

It's HIS job to see that his "needs" get met. Sometimes that might mean negotiating with you, say if it's about sex or about the division of labor in your home, etc. But sometimes, it might mean that what he sees as a "need" is unhealthy in an adult, like external validation through attention and flattery.

MC's are there to treat the marriage. The marriage is the client. So, of course they're going to talk about communications, resentments and expectations. The MC doesn't want to alienate anyone, so s/he's looking to find balance on both sides. But marriages don't cheat. People do. The only way your WH is going to make a change that safeguards against further perfidy is by correcting his need for external validation and becoming an emotionally healthy adult whose deeds are as good as his word. No excuses, just honoring the things he claims to value. For that, I would recommend IC (individual counseling) with a therapist who is well-versed in adultery.

The last thing any newly-minted BS needs is to walk into an MC's office, believing that they've come to safe harbor, and being handed a copy of The Five Love Languages or some other "unmet needs" gobbledygook. It would be really nice if we actually did have the power to control our mate by giving them "acts of service" or "words of affirmation", but sadly, we aren't gods who can stop a cheater from seeking out his/her choice of adrenaline rush and new kibbles. Although, this kind of pop-psy suggests that their behavior is somehow our responsibility. The more you dig into this ridiculous line of thought, the more absurd it becomes.

posts: 4520   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016
id 8678271
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 ASoreLoser (original poster New Member #78968) posted at 4:37 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

I'm just really tired.

It feels like WW and MC are trying to make this "our affair" instead "her affair".

On top of that, my job requires us to move back into the office. It'll be busier than ever, who knows what will happen if WW gets bored again and I'm stuck making powerpoints and kissing asses.

I just don't have time for this. It feels like letting her go would be the best. I still do love her to some degree but loving her feels like a battle, or it feels like a second job.

posts: 25   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2021
id 8678273
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ChamomileTea ( Member #53574) posted at 5:00 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

The exhaustion is a normal reaction to trauma. It does get better though. It's imperative that you keep up your self-care and that if you feel like it's getting ahead of you, see your doctor and get some help managing your stress.

It sounds to me like you need to fire the MC. What you're describing is common, and it's the main reason that we typically recommend holding off on MC. The therapist gets real busy trying to find common ground on both sides, but marriages don't cheat. People do.

It's not too early to decide you're done if you're SURE of it. But, if you're not, it's okay to just back off and defer a decision until later. If your WW is pressuring you, tell her you'll let her know in six months, go back to your 180, and just observe whether she makes any changes. I know it FEELS like everything needs to be sorted out and taken care of now, but YOU are in control. Take time for yourself. Breathe. Get some IC. Clarity will come in time.

posts: 4520   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016
id 8678274
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This0is0Fine ( Member #72277) posted at 5:19 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

A marriage takes some work, but it sure as shit shouldn't feel like a second job, or an unending chore.

Here's the problem, in my opinion, with unmet needs, or really any externalizing or blame shifting as a reason to cheat. If they don't accept that they chose to cheat and that everything else is background noise, they will never be able to make themselves a safe partner.

You hit the nail on the head ASL. "What happens next time she feels justified to cheat?" Answer: she will cheat. Because she did it before and because you and her MC allowed her to get away with it before.

"You were working so many hours again."

"My mom/dad died and you weren't there for me."

"You weren't making me feel appreciated."

"I felt like I lost my identity and needed to be myself again, with someone that saw me from brand new without baggage."

Pick a stupid fucking story: your heart gets broken again edition.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 1329   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8678277
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ramius ( Member #44750) posted at 5:24 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

She is giving you a word salad of bullshit excuses/reasons that she had an affair.

You were working too much? I wonder what her response would be if you said “you know.... you have put on 30 pounds since having the kids, so I had to go get a side piece.”

Do you think she would except that is a valid reason for you getting some strange?

What she’s not gonna say is the truth.… Which is something probably closer to....”I was horny and I wanted it.”

How many scars have you rationalized because you loved the person who was holding the knife?

Their actions reveal their intentions. Their words conceal them.

posts: 1604   ·   registered: Sep. 3rd, 2014
id 8678280
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paboy ( Member #59482) posted at 5:37 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

Unfortunately this is what MC is all about. Saving marriages. IC especially with a counselor specializing in infidelity is what is required for your WW. Finding out her why's..

Otherwise what the current counselor is doing is revictimising the victim. Perhaps you should ask her and her counselor wether a rape victim needs to consider how she contributed to her rape.

posts: 586   ·   registered: Jul. 4th, 2017   ·   location: australia
id 8678282
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paboy ( Member #59482) posted at 5:40 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

And if she says that what she did, did not rape the marriage..you best inform her that yes it did.

posts: 586   ·   registered: Jul. 4th, 2017   ·   location: australia
id 8678283
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smolderingdark ( Member #64064) posted at 10:04 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

It feels like WW and MC are trying to make this "our affair" instead "her affair".

This is the sole reason your wife has pressed for MC . The experience for most is a blame shifting game. Your wife is not looking to repair the damage she has done. The only thing your wayward wife is looking for is justification for her behavior.

You can certainly continue to waste your time if you choose. Your wife has no desire to accept responsibility for her poor choices. She wants you to accept fault for her choices.

Part ways with her and co parent. Take away all the nice clothes and the lifestyle you provide to her. Will she have an appreciation for you then? No. She will howl even more loudly. Your wife is ungrateful. She will never appreciate you as her loyal husband but she will take advantage of you and your good nature at every opportunity available to her.

posts: 130   ·   registered: Jun. 7th, 2018
id 8678304
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midnightschild99 ( New Member #33465) posted at 11:09 AM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

Your WW’s behaviour on getting caught was just an act. The stuff that she’s saying at MC is real. Classic blameshifting.

She’s not a candidate for R.

Your marriage is over, you just need to get through the process.

posts: 29   ·   registered: Sep. 27th, 2011
id 8678306
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Butforthegrace ( Member #63264) posted at 1:10 PM on Sunday, July 25th, 2021

Somehow everything is turned on me. I really regret having sex with her because I lost the moral high ground. Just a week ago, she was walking on eggshells around me, now she acts like I did something wrong.

One tactic might have been to demand a post-nuptial agreement as a condition to considering trying to R. Maybe still. These can be tricky. The laws vary a lot between states. In some states they're unenforceable. In NYS, I would reckon that a properly drafted post-nuptial agreement ought to be enforceable. You'll need a good lawyer.

But by dawdling and waffling you've lost that period of desperation by her, that "I'll do anything" period. She's back to DARVO. Frankly she sounds vacuous and not very bright, living high on the hog with you but daydreaming about fantasyland with her AP. Is she a trophy wife? I've never met a man who married a trophy wife and didn't later come to regret it.

You do realize that the A would still be going on had you not caught and confronted her. Your worry about her continuing to cheat is legitimate.

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

posts: 3771   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2018   ·   location: Midwest
id 8678315
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