SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

SerJR - thanks for your responses. I think I could have intellectually figured out everything you just said, but emotionally I'm getting there much more slowly. This conversation is helping, a lot. I think so many people (the Reddit board is probably more guilty) have presented the 180, etc. as a way to win her back that I perceived it that way. What I need to do is think of this as a situation where she needs to win me back.

I know, I deserve better than what I'm getting right now. If she wants to give me that, then great. If not... I'll find my own way. I have to take care of me and my kids right now.

I think so many people have presented the 180, etc. as a way to win her back that I perceived it that way.

That's exactly it! You don't want to win this person back! She's cheating, lying, and manipulating - you want this person out of your life. If she is going to be in your life, then you need to see some major changes for the long term.

There's not even a power struggle here with your WW. You're not telling her to stop cheating. You're telling her "do whatever the heck you want". But you're attaching the condition "do whatever the heck you want, but don't expect me to be your doormat".

This comes as a shock to many of us... but you do have rights! You are allowed to make sure you get your emotional needs met. You are allowed to protect yourself from being hurt. You are allowed to respect yourself. Tell yourself this every morning when you wake up.

I know this is confusing... and I know you're afraid. None of this is fair. We did everything right. And then we get thrown down into this deep, dark, and lonely pit with everything stripped from us except for the very last of what's left of us. Nobody ever told us about the infidelity monster. And here we stand, face to face with that big, ugly, sonuvabitch. You're stuck in the bottom of the pit with that bastard.

But you know what? That door swings both ways, my brother. When everything's been taken away, we're left with that last bit of ourselves that it wasn't able to obliterate. And that's a problem. Because with all of that fluff out of the way... you've now exposed that long dormant potential. All of those fears? They're only as powerful as we refuse to be. And we'll still do everything that is right and good. And all of this is a problem... because nobody ever told that poor dumb sunuvabitch about you. That monster... you're not stuck in the pit with him... it's stuck here in the the pit with you!

[This message edited by SerJR at 8:08 PM, February 8th (Wednesday)]

This string has been so helpful to read!

SerJR thank you.

My fence sitting WH had yet another painful conversation with me last night. He's still seeing the AP and won't "decide". I had to listen to him tell me that if he had feelings for me he's walk away from her. So really I'm the dumb ass in all this. I'm the one still telling him we can fix the marriage - but WHY? He's literally telling me he doesn't think he wants to be with me.

So, I really need to pick myself up off the floor and stand up for myself here. This is ridiculous. If he wants to throw the marriage and his family away then, I guess that is ok. I'm not sure why I keep wanting to be with someone who has lied and hurt me so much. AND continues to do so.

It's time for me to say enough and walk away. As I'm typing this I have tears starting to run down my face. This hurts so much. But I can't keep going this way. I deserve so much better for me and the kids. Forcing myself to just breathe right now. Breathe.

I hope I can do this.

Struggling4747 - I'm there with you!

SerJR - question for you.......and I think Struggling4747 would benefit from this question too.

I just kept thinking that my WH would come to his senses and stop seeing her. I kept steadfast in telling him that we could work on the marriage and that I loved him. It seems all that got me was brutal honesty that he will continue to see the AP to decide what he wants. He contines to tell me he loves me but isn't in love with me. That he was unhappy before.

I was so worried that putting my foot down and really moving forward - and likely filing for D, would make him go with her. I guess if that's what he's doing now, then I don't want him anyways. That is such a hard statement to accept. But reality I guess right?

Me shutting down completely from him and moving on (for real) - I guess is the only solution right?

Shattered - I guess I can't say I'm glad to know someone else out there is going through what I'm going through, but it is nice to know I'm not alone.

I'm just starting to accept the idea that I need to tell my wife that she needs to leave our house; I'm definitely not ready for the idea of breaking off contact. I mean, we can't really since we have kids, so there would at least be "business meetings." But, I've been playing with the idea that maybe if we go the separation route, rather than straight to divorce, then we can plan on one night a week still having a family dinner (maybe a night that we trade off the kids or something). Part of me thinks, "man... we still really get along when we're in each other's company," but I know I'm going to have to get used to the idea of losing that. The other part of me thinks that if I give her a reminder of what our family is, that she'll eventually come to her senses. I feel like I'm losing my mind.

Today I'm really struggling with the fact that I had worked up my nerve to tell her that if she can't end it with the OM, then she needs to leave our home. I was going to do it at our joint therapy appt. today, and get the therapist's assistance in doing so. But the therapist went to the ER last night, and had to cancel our appointment; it's not rescheduled until next Friday. I don't know if I can make it that long, and I'm terrified of doing this without talking to her first. She has saved a lot of marriages from pretty precarious positions, and I want to make sure I'm not going to make things worse. I really suck at this. I know I should become more invested in myself than the marriage at this point, but I am just struggling with that. I know we'll never again have the same life that we had, but what we still have is too important to me, and would be a great foundation for building the rest of our lives back up.

If your WS is still seeing AP and refuses to go No Contact, then that leaves you with only one option IMO. Don't let them wait around and choose, don't let them fence sit and twiddle their thumbs deciding, don't fall for the pick me dance, its all cake-eating tactics for them. Go nuclear. See an attorney and file for divorce. That will knock them square off the fence and wake them up. If they are willing to lose you and everything you both have built together for AP, then honestly there was never any hope. On the other hand, WS could see you mean business and they could lose it all. Sometimes filing for divorce is the only way to save your marriage as odd at the sounds. Forget marriage counseling until WS goes NC with AP. Otherwise you might as well put a pile of cash on the ground and light a match.

I understand your fear Struggling4747.

This may help you.......My WH and I had a calm conversation about 2 weeks before I asked him to leave. Because he kept saying he was confused about his feelings and he refused to cut contact with her, we both discussed the idea of separation for him to "clear his head". We had agreed that the space could be good. Now at that time I believed he would cut contact with her to "decide". That was dumb of me to think that. I can tell you that I asked my WH to leave the house immediatly right after a very calm conversation we had where he stated that he thought he wanted a life with the AP. At that time he had to quickly find an apartment. He was VERY mad. Unfortunatly he didn't understand there are consequences for his actions.

Fast forward 6 weeks to today. He is still seeing the AP. He has had the luxury of access to the house to see the kids, have "normal" evenings, have family dinners. I too thought this would make him miss his life. I thought that recently I was seeing him around more because he was coming to his senses. Now I see that he has no responsibility of his house and kids and he has all the time to see her!

Last night's phone call proved me wrong. He was so cruel. Stating he would continue to see her and decide what he wants. There was no feeling towards me at all, nothing to show that he is hurting me. Honestly nothing to show that he understands what he's doing to his kids. Almost like he's waiting for me to make the decision for D, so that he doesn't have to. He's also furious at me that people now know what he's done. He blames that all on me for telling family.

I can't tell you what is right. As you can see from my posts, I feel like I'm at the end here and I've got to make the decision for my future. I guess I gave him too many options? Maybe I should have let him stay at the house, but at the time he wasn't stopping the affiar so I felt I had to make him leave. That didn't stop his actions unfortunately - they are still going.

If you think that you need to talk to your therapist before the decision - certainly do that. Maybe I did the wrong thing? I don't know anymore. I just want this horrible circus to stop.

So... I just finished meeting with an attorney. All I could think about the whole time was "I don't want to do this; why is she making me do this?"

Talking about custody of the kids was crushing. We would very likely do a 50/50 split, but that would destroy me. I can't handle seeing kids their age when I'm on a work trip... now I won't see them for half of the year? And then discussing division of assets... There is no part of me that wanted this.

How many lawyers do you think I should talk to during this process? Consultations around here are not cheap. Should I go with... ok, now I know my rights; I can do more consultations when I'm ready to pull the trigger? Or would you guys go ahead and do a couple more now?

not sure? check out my last post - looks like I have to do the same consultations now?

WH just told me he wants a D. UGH.

I'm so sorry to hear that Shattered... I know that is really not the way you wanted it to go. Maybe fighting for our marriages isn't what we're supposed to do here; maybe the "pick me" dance is wrong; but at least you'll be able to look back and say that you did everything you could. You'll never wonder if you should have fought harder.

I was so worried that putting my foot down and really moving forward - and likely filing for D, would make him go with her. I guess if that's what he's doing now, then I don't want him anyways. That is such a hard statement to accept. But reality I guess right?

It is a hard thing to understand, but you can't "nice" your WS back to you. Affairs are fuelled by a sense of entitlement, and by not confronting their behaviour you enable and by trying to "nice" them you feed the entitlement.

Let's consider the burning house analogy. Your WS just set fire to the house and it's burning down. Do you sit there in the chair and hope they come to their senses and put out the fire? No.

You get up and get out of the house, asking your WS to come with you. Your marriage is the house and the affair is the fire.

If nothing is changed, then nothing will change. You have to be willing to take action to make that change. You must refuse infidelity in your life, or resign yourself to accept it. Your WS can always get their act together and you can change your mind and reconcile if they are willing to do the work. When you kick over the fence, you never know what side the WS will land on... but it will be the side they were already leaning to.

Again though, the 180 isn't about your WS at all - it's all about taking back your self respect and being the one to write your own story. I don't advocate the "go nuclear" or "shock and awe" philosophy (other than for energising yourself to focus your anger) - divorce is not about revenge, it's about new beginnings where you have to play it smart to position yourself for your future.

Regarding your question about the attorney - you have to figure out when you know enough. In my opinion, with a WS engaged in an affair you need to protect yourself and that includes drafting up a separation agreement. Again, should the situation change you can always change your mind.

I was having a difficult time implementing the 180 as well. My STBXWH said he wanted R. I gave him boundaries and guidelines and he half assed them. He made multiple contacts with OW. I was able to implement 180 when he told me (HIS WIFE) that he could not break contact with OW. In other words, he wanted to see her and me at the same time. I was not interested in the "pick me dance". Enough was enough. What else could I do? I felt like the 180 was all I could do. Of course it was hard. I tried (fake) 180's before, but was really doing it to prove a point to him. Not because I was really wanting disconnection. This time, I knew I deserved better than to BEG for my own husband. I know my worth. I LOVED my husband, but loved myself more. After time, I realized that I liked not having the ups and downs and endless dissapointment. Until my divorce hearing this week, I had not spoken to STBXWH in 9 weeks. You have to decide what you will stand for. It is NOT okay she is still talking to OM. You deserve better than that. You owe that to yourself.

Well, I started the conversation with her tonight. We have more to talk about, but I told her I didn't think I could do this anymore. I haven't explicitly asked her to leave the house yet, but the conversation has started and she at least knows I no longer accept the status quo.

I really appreciate all your advice and stories, I wouldn't have gotten this far without them. Now it's time to embrace the 180 in earnest, and for me. 'WhoIsHe' - I definitely know what you mean by the fake 180s, I have been guilty of them too so far, I think I'm actually ready now.

Today is the first day she's not living in the house anymore, and I've probably already blown the 180. We were messaging about some stuff with the kids... so far so good. She asked a couple of questions about my intentions towards her long-term contact with them. I answered them honestly... she's otherwise an amazing mother to them, and I have no intention of anything other than 50/50. She said I hoped I understood her concerns, and I threw a dig back at her... "I wish you had shown that concern before you decided to leave our family."

I don't know probably a low blow, I feel bad for it; but more importantly, I'm pretty sure it's exactly the opposite of the 180. I need to just repeat to myself constantly not to do stuff like that.

Oh... and it seemed like she was trying to 180 me today, but thankfully it went about as well for her as it did for me.

... she's otherwise an amazing mother to them ...

Any woman who cheats on her children's father and thereby destroys their family, depriving them of the many benefits of growing up under the same roof with both of their parents, is anything but an "amazing mother."

This kind of Stockholm Syndrome thinking will undermine both your decision-making and your recovery, and ultimately work against the interests of your children. Get rid of it.

Alchemy - you are right of course, and I've been admittedly slow to really understand that. But there are also things that she is objectively great at with regards to the kids.

I do need to make sure I keep seeing her as the person she is right now, and not as the person I saw in the past. As much as I want her to feel their loss, to know the pain of what she's doing to our family, to me; I can't deprive them of her. I have to be careful not to drag this out so long that they become confused, and the sooner we can setup true boundaries the better it will be for all of us.

She doesn't know I'm struggling with the 180 today, but I do. We have Google Hangouts, and have often used it to IM each other during the day. We don't as often anymore, but still do. Long story short, She's been offline since first thing this morning, and that is very unusual for her. Of course my mind goes to "she must be spending the day with the OM..." She hates V-Day, always has; but if they're really together today that would just hurt doubly bad.

I can't seem to stop my obsession with whether or not she's seeing him, talking to him, what are they doing right now, etc. I shouldn't care either way; they're both being incredibly selfish shitheads. But this is still kicking my ass.

Struggling4747 - take a deep breath! Breathe. I know the mind torture, I've been doing exactly the same thing. I'm trying so hard to view my WH for what he is right now - which is not someone that I would even want to be around! Your WW is not being a responsible person, parent or even adult. You and I make logical choices and value the loved ones in our lives, and unfortunately she does not right now.

I try to tell myself that today is just Tuesday and tomorrow will be Wednesday. Nothing special. Do your normal routine with the kids tonight, cause it's a normal day.

I also had to quit thinking about what my WH is doing in the evenings or if he's talking to the OW on his phone. Cause they have been doing it for months, so I just assume he still is! And honestly, what exciting information could they be talking about? They are both broken people, who have such low morals right now.

Just know that you are not alone! I'm trying this 180 thing as well and I certainly screw it up alot! I'm trying to be so much stronger about it and when I am it does make me feel a little better. You are stronger than you think you are. I'm learning that about myself right now too. I'm scared to death, but everyday I'm kinda getting more pissed off. So maybe that's a good thing that can fuel your courage.

Hang in there - today is just a day.

I wouldn't let your mind run to far along those lines. She may be cutting communications to see if you come running. It could just be that she is testing the waters to see how serious you are with all of this.

Stand firm.. If she is choosing AP over you then you know for sure where she stands. Somehow you have to get yourself out of limbo and find something solid to hang onto. Where you are right now is not sustainable for very long.

If she won't choose you only have a couple choices.. Learn to be ok with your wife having a boyfriend, or divorce. You are going to have to pick one eventually and be ok with your choice. The longer you stay in limbo the more its going to hurt you and your kids.

You have heard it said on here many times I am sure. If you want to save a marriage you have to be willing to risk losing it. Its not really her decision, its yours.