SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

While I don't for a second buy marriage problems as an excuse for his As, I am trying to improve our marriage and have moved on to marriage help books. Only the first chapter of the first book I read says you shouldn't even try to stay married to a serial cheater. Google didn't give me a very clear view of where the line is--over here you're just a cheater and over there you're a serial cheater. So where's the line? Does anything more than one A make him a serial cheater? Three As? How many does it take?

Can you guys define serial cheating for me?

More than one affair.

I think YOUR definition is the one that counts.

Do you count EA and PA? or just PA? Does re-starting a LTA with the same AP count? It comes down to how you feel about it. Your definition.

I agree with Razor. It really depends on your own personal definition.

For me it wouldn't matter between an EA, PA, ONS etc... if it happens multiple times, they are a serial cheater. But that doesn't mean they can't change. Everyone can change if they see their destructive behavior and want to fix it. If they don't see it or don't see a problem with it, then there are bigger issues.

That's just my opinion

I disagree that serial cheaters can change. My therapist said flat out that they don't change because it's not about sex, it's about deeper issues which are ingrained. And usually they dont' want to.

I disagree that serial cheaters can change

I think anyone can change...if the desire is there

and this

My therapist said flat out

Is dangerous. A therapist is to be used as a tool...not the answer. Going to IC should enable you to find answers that fit for you. Nobody should ever tell a person what they are or are not capable of....IMO

I struggled with this one as well, still do to be honest. My WH cheated on his first wife 3 times - EA as well as PA - 3 different AP's and with me he had one AP. He had met another potential AP just days before Dday and would have slept with her if she was interested. The ONLY reason he didnt cross the line to having 2 AP's was because she wasn't interested.

Maybe I am way off base here but to me, the difference behind a serial cheater and not is the depth of thier issues at heart. Whatever is broken in someone to allow them to cheat is just more rooted in a serial cheater. It doesn't mean they CAN'T change, it just means the chances are way, way lower. Unless someone has a serious mental health issue like a sociopath or something anyways.

If a human can feel empathy they can change. The key with ANY cheater is they have to have the desire to change. The serial cheater just have to want it more than life, it's way harder for them.

SoDamn, you said it well. It does seem as if the issues are different and deeper with serial cheating than with those who let themselves get too close at a vulnerable time. And while I believe they can change, fixing deep issues takes a whole lot of digging. I know my H doesn't want to work that hard and I guess that's one reason I'm trying to come up with a definition. He needs to accept the reality of his cheating before he can hope to fix anything. He has admitted he felt out of control and I believe that lack of control had him scared. I actually think he wanted me to stop him before it progressed any further.

As to my definition being the only one that matters, I'm not sure I agree. It's the only one that matters as far as my decisions are concerned, but my opinion doesn't shape reality. There usually is a difference between the mindset of a one-time cheater and a serial cheater. On the plus side knowing his issues run far deeper than marital problems at least gives me reassurance that it wasn't me, that my memory of being a pretty good wife is likely accurate. On the down side, it means that I can do nothing to fix this--that it's all up to him to change what's wrong in his head.

For the record, I'm pretty sure 3 confirmed PAs, at least one more heavily suspected PA, a handful of online As, lots of webcam and some highly questionable activities which had the police at my door probably adds up to a serial cheater at best and more likely SA. I'm just not sure I'll ever get him to admit it and I can't bring myself to leave him since his health is declining. Statistically he shouldn't have more than a few years before his illness takes him but he could beat the odds and stick around another 20 years. I'd be shocked if any infidelity is going on now, but who knows how long he can control himself. How do I live like this for another 20 years? How do I leave a man when he needs me the most? My answer is I can't leave him, but I can move into the guest room and take care of him as the roommates he once claimed we were. He needs to do the work and I'm gathering up my strength so I can focus on my need to feel safe.

To me, serial would be defined as a consistent pattern. Multiple A's over time.

For the record, I'm pretty sure 3 confirmed PAs, at least one more heavily suspected PA, a handful of online As, lots of webcam and some highly questionable activities which had the police at my door probably adds up to a serial cheater at best and more likely SA.

I would define that as a serial cheater until/unless SA was dx'd by a professional - a lot of SA's are serial cheaters, but not all serial cheaters are SA.

To me, that probably wouldn't matter as I don't think I could R with either of those... but I digress that I have not walked in those shoes so that statement really doesn't mean a whole lot.

[This message edited by Lucky2HaveMe at 10:55 AM, April 23rd (Tuesday)]

I think anyone can change...if the desire is there

I believe people can change their habits. But they can not change them self.

A alcoholic remains a alcoholic forever regardless of how long it has been since he has had a drink. Name the addiction and I believe it is the same.

We are who we are. We can choose to not act out our impulses. But we must forever be on guard about them.

People who feel entitled to happiness are the same. Just like the addict they can choose to remain faithful and not hurt others. But they must remain on guard.

People who have weak boundaries with the opp sex are the same. They can learn to keep stronger boundaries but must be alert for any weakening.

In all these cases the person remains the same. Only the habits change.

Razor, you make an interesting distinction. I agree that we are what we are, but believe that we can change how we behave. After being warned her cigarettes were killing her, my mother learned to overcome her addiction. I'd like to think my H can make the same kind of changes and learn how to choose his behavior much more carefully, but am aware that whatever issues led him to his As will still be there.

I guess that was the core of my question--at what level does the behavior indicate such deeply ingrained issues that recovery becomes extraordinarily difficult?

Right now he's all love and kisses and his boundaries seem high and firmly in place. If I could take a snapshot of the way he is now, I'd be very happy with how much he has changed, but life isn't a single shot and we don't know the ending of this movie yet. I've asked him to read a book on helping me heal and that's his first test. If the book hasn't been touched a week from now then I need to change my behavior.

I believe people can change their habits. But they can not change them self.

A alcoholic remains a alcoholic forever regardless of how long it has been since he has had a drink. Name the addiction and I believe it is the same.

This is scientifically untrue, I believe. The brain can rewire itself to accommodate a breakage of addiction. Some substances cannot, simply because they're designed to be addictive and are equally so to anyone who gets hooked.

Behaviorally, though, it's not set in stone. Forced habits eventually become reflex.

We change who we are little by little every day. Big changes are only those seen from the distance of time and a long perspective. The self is not a static thing whose nature is determined at birth. It can be changed just like the rest of your body can be changed by healthy habits. You heal yourself and make yourself whole by adopting honest and healthy thinking habits and behaviors, and over time that nets a change. Your beer belly doesn't go away overnight because you cut out beer, it takes a long time of consistent behavior to work that off. The same with your brain and its sense of self.

Really, truly fucked up people may be crippled forever, but that doesn't mean they can't make themselves healthy enough to function in society and be happy doing so, or even contribute magnificently.

People can change, but most people don't care enough about getting rid of the beer belly to do it.

I disagree that serial cheaters can change. My therapist said flat out that they don't change because it's not about sex, it's about deeper issues which are ingrained.

I believe they can change, and I also think that a therapist who says people can't change is probably in the wrong line of work! Now, a sociopath won't change, nor will someone who doesn't want to change. However, I believe change is possible.

I also feel that there is a distinction to be made between a person who has repeated affairs surreptitiously and a person who has an affair, is discovered & witnesses the agony caused by their cheating, then goes on to have another affair...etc. etc.

If there have never been consequences for the cheating, nor anything to burst the magic bubble of compartmentalization and delusion, then is there a real marked qualitative difference between affair #2, say, and affair #X? Certainly there is for the BS; we look at it very differently than a pre-DDay WS. However, for a pre-DDay WS I think it's just absorbed. Like they already went down that road once, so it's known territory; the taboo has already been broken.

I think the critical factors in breaking the pattern lie within the WS. Are they willing to do the grindingly hard, ongoing work to change? Are they willing to start by being fully honest (for possibly the first time in their adult lives) to themselves, their BSs, and their ICs/MCs? Are they willing to not allow themselves to be satisfied with the 'easy answers' as to why they cheated and betrayed, even if that causes them pain? Are they willing and able to show selflessness in helping their BSs heal from the trauma and pain caused by the WSs' cheating?

In your situation, I'm uncomfortable with the fact you don't seem to have confidence that you've gotten full disclosure. Without that, you're not building on a solid foundation.

Best of luck to you. (((PeaceLove187)))

Sad--you're right that I don't have a firm foundation to rebuild from. We've actually gone backwards as he's now back to blaming the marriage for his As or at least blaming his view of the marriage, a fine distinction which may acknowledge his unrealistic expectations but leaves out huge piles of issues. What's even worse is I think he's lying to himself about the depth of his compulsions and justifying the supression of reality by claiming the guilt he experiences further compromises his already failing health. I tried to talk to him about the events which led the police to our door and he knows I know what he did, but he still tries to minimize and desexualize it. Who is he trying to fool, me or himself?

It's hard to argue with him when he says he wants his last year or two of life to be happy ones but a year or two could easily turn into five years or ten or twenty. That's plenty of time for round 3 of his As. He needs to do the work but his symptoms temporarily worsen everytime I try to talk about his As and then I cave and go back into silent mode. I'm stuck because I won't leave him, not as long as he's at least being loving and loyal. He needs me and I can't leave a man I love when he's disabled and possibly facing his final days. I just can't. But I can't face years and years of this if these aren't his final days, so something has to give and I hope it's his fear of his own shame that gets tossed in the trash where it belongs. I don't want to shame him, I just want him to fix this. I want to feel safe.

[This message edited by PeaceLove187 at 12:33 PM, April 24th (Wednesday)]

If I could take a snapshot of the way he is now, I'd be very happy with how much he has changed, but life isn't a single shot and we don't know the ending of this movie yet.

Thats the thing isnt it? Sooner or later many get comfortable with things as they are and slip back into old habits. Boundaries that were set into stone soon after Dday become fuzzy and weak. Old behaviors come back.

WW has fallen into the *we are over it* thinking. I believe she thinks that because SHE is *over it* so must I be. There for WE are over it. So because *we are over it* she doesnt need to be so strict with her boundaries any more. She has decided that she will not do *that* (LTA) again and for her thats enuf. But as boundaries weaken that resolve fades.

For habits to really change the has to constantly monitor them self. They have to be for ever on guard. If they get lazy and that guard slips things can go side ways again.

A alcoholic remains a alcoholic forever regardless of how long it has been since he has had a drink. Name the addiction and I believe it is the same.

An alcoholic is always an alcoholic. Same with a drug addict, a person with an eating disorder, etc.

However, in alcoholism, there is the term "dry drunk" - that means someone who is not drinking but still behaving like an alcoholic. But those associated (alcoholic) behaviors and thought patterns DO change for those who are in real, active recovery. Indeed, it is because these patterns change that they are often successful at avoiding booze.

Anyway, as it relates the the question, just some food for thought. My WH had 2 affairs over the course of 2 years. If you define serial as more than one, than he is a serial cheat. I'm totally open to this definition.

However, I think of my WH's As as his brokenness, like many of us do. He was broken for those two years, probably more. Say he had just one affair that lasted 2 years rather than 2 over 2 years. But...if you use the definition that serial cheaters (more than 1 affair) can't change...then why can someone change who was broken for 2 years but it only manifested in 1 affair? I dunno, I don't think it always matters whether it was 1 OP or 5 OPs. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't.

I also don't buy into the "it was just one time and WS was in a bad place. Very vulnerable." Anyone who has an affair has ingrained thought processes and behaviors that lead to an affair. Yes, ingrained - in all of them, serial or one-timer. More or less ingrained? OK, that's up for debate. But people don't stumble into affairs - even if just 1 time - without being pretty fucked up individuals. Therefore, this whole "change is hard!" applies to all of them.

Razor--I agree that old habits die hard. I'd like to think they do eventually wither and die but who knows. I thought he'd killed those habits the first time. My mistake.

Rocky--It's the term "dry drunk" that scares the hell out of me. There are plenty of APs out there willing and ready to help him remove the qualifier "dry". And I don't disagree that simultaneous or nearly simultaneous As can be lumped into one period of brokenness but, like you, I see the reality of even one A as evidence his problems go deep. Now that I'm hyper aware I can remember so many questionable moments throughout our relationship and see odd moments even now when he reads a situation differently than I do. In my opinion he reads too much into interactions, seeing condemnation where his boss may have only intended guidance and being touched when he receives one of those "send to ten friends" emails. It worries me.

Serial cheating equals philandering. And it basically encompasses anyone who constantly seeks out, creates, takes advantage of the opportunity to make an A possible. The impetus is a constant need to be admired by someone who does not know their flaws and thinks them perfect. You'd think people like this would not marry and just opt to be whores (hey both men and women can slut around, there's no gender distinction even if men are more commonly philanderers) but somehow, they need the constant, the spouse, to play the foil. They usually truly love the spouse (even if they don't want to stay married), but they can't not operate without a "permanent" partner there. So if they D spouse 1, then they'll marry again relatively quickly to find their comfort zone again, of that permanent partner, and then off they go cheating again.

So you can see a distinction between that and say a sex addict, for whom the pursuit is a true addiction to the actual sex act.

Re: the other point, can philanderers change. Well, the Berlin Wall fell, so the impossible can happen, but stop focusing on the possible and start looking at probabilities. What's the probability that a philanderer will cheat again? If the range is 0 (never again) to 1 (100% liklihood) then I would argue that the possibility that a philanderer will cheat again is so close to 1 that it might as well be 1.

Basically, philanderers are bad bad bad bets, and those of you stuck here with one would be wise to recognize that and plan accordingly.

My apologies for bluntness but hard lessons learned make for strong opinions about such things.

[This message edited by cayc at 5:07 PM, April 25th (Thursday)]

My apologies for bluntness but hard lessons learned make for strong opinions about such things.

No apologies needed. I'm not on SI just for the lovey dovey support. I like people to tell it like it is, even if just for them.

I think where a lot of struggle is...how do you know if they are an philanderer? Your definition makes sense, for sure. But I don't know. Was that the path he was on and I just busted it and he'll go back to it? Or were his 2 affairs NOT philandering by your definition and rather brokenness from which one can grow and change? I think there are a lot of us who are in this gray area. Indeed, I think anyone who has experienced even 1 A is wondering if this is a pattern that they simply discovered earlier than others. If I knew his history for sure to be philandering or his eventual fate, I'd agree with your advice.

Good Lord, you sound like me. I "busted" Wh too. In November it started with 1EA, a week later a PA, fast forward, 5 Ddays in 5 months, TT with a total of 8 OW in 3 years, with 1 LTA, multiple EA's since beginning of our relationship. I'm seeking confirmation if he's a narcissist from our IC/MC. If he is, I'm leaving my own place with my kids. Good luck on your journey and search, for me it took a while...

[This message edited by libertyrocks at 6:21 PM, April 25th (Thursday)]

Cayc--I appreciate your bluntness and I don't disagree. I'm 90% convinced he'd eventually go back to straying because that's his default mechanism for dealing with stress, except his health is failing and statistically he doesn't have enough time left to relapse. It's easy to say what you would do if the situation was different but I'm pretty well convinced I would have to divorce him if they suddenly found a cure for his illness.