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Zugzwang, Hikingout,

I think we are all closer than may be perceived in our thinking. It may come down to perspective.

Just saying that what I quoted made it seem to me that WoundedBear's WW and him were seeing it as she temporarily became some pod sick person and it wasn't in her character to cheat that we usually see new WS come here stating all the time. That it was out of character and it seemed like they were disassociating herself from who she really was.

I think we are seeing in the opposite direction. The A was when she disassociated herself with who she really was. The A was not a revelation of her "true self" or her true character. It was the opposite. The A was a revelation of a brokenness in her that needed to be addressed. A brokenness that has been there from when she was very young.

Hikingout wrote:

I agree with you to a certain extent. I was always unhealthy in coping. Most of my unhealthy character traits were not hurtful to other people prior to the affair - they were hurtful to myself. I wasn't a liar or a cheat, I wasn't always pushing the envelope of what I could get away with. I wasn't selfish either. I was too self-sacrificing - it let to a period of extreme unhealthiness. My way of managing my life made me sick, detached, uncaring, exhausted.

This describes my fWW. When the opportunity for the A happened, she was in full blown midlife crisis with kids leaving the house. She was vulnerable, and her coping skills and boundaries sucked. She chose the unhealthy path because she was unhealthy.

Which to me can't really take root as real change till you clean out who you were and own that it was indeed you and you are capable and you were like that for a long time before you chose to cheat.

Right on. You can't cure a sickness by treating only the symptoms, you have to address the underlying disease. fWW must continue to address her struggle with worth, and how she hustled for worthiness. Like a recovering alcoholic, she needs to recognize that it is still within her to choose to be unhealthy again. That is why when I hear people say it takes 2 to 5 years to R, I don't believe it. I think R will be what we do the rest of our lives. Even if she strengthens herself and does the work, just like an alcoholic, she has to have hard boundaries where she did not before. She cannot flirt, she cannot allow herself to get into situations where she could backslide into bad habits. She knows that, and is committed to that. Not because I have told her she has to, but because she knows that is the only way to live a healthy life.

To some that may seem like a lifetime sentence, why bother? It is not. We have a great marriage now. Honestly, we had a pretty good marriage before. We work on positive stuff, not just avoiding the negative stuff. We travel, go to the gym, volunteer and have fun together. Maybe it takes 2 to 5 years for the trauma to die down. Maybe that is what is meant. But I think R really takes a lifetime. After all, it took a lifetime to get to the A, and Dday.

Reading what you just wrote woundedbear, I am able to see even more parallels. Midlife, emptynest, etc. I can see why the stories relate to each other.

Even if she strengthens herself and does the work, just like an alcoholic, she has to have hard boundaries where she did not before. She cannot flirt, she cannot allow herself to get into situations where she could backslide into bad habits.

There IT is. I am not surprised because this this this line of thinking falls in line with this.

The A was not a revelation of her "true self" or her true character. It was the opposite.

For the biggest part who we are as a character is are true self during the affair. A revelation of the extent of how broken we are no doubt about it. Still our "true self". If the true self is changed, then boundaries don't become issues because the self worth and confidence are changed to not want to look for outside validation. Not not be a KISA. Not to self sacrifice to get the self built up by doing for others for worth making someone already unhealthy even weaker. We may put on airs for some AP (that is just a role), who we are to the core deep down with the AP is who we were in our true self character. Our true character is what needs the boundaries. Change the character, and boundaries don't become an issue because we don't want or need the outside validation. A person can R in 5 years. It depends upon how much work you do and if you are willing to accept that the cheater was your "true self". A shitty one at that. Doesn't mean you can't become a better "true self".

No woundedbear I don't think we are close in the fundamentals on "true self and character". We are on what one needs to do on the journey, yes.

Hey Zug,

Sorry, took a break for a few days.

I think I know what you are saying. I am not sure I buy that my fWW's base character was to be a cheater. That is not really at her core who she is. But, at her core there were character traits that made her open to cheating?? Her need for validation because she felt worthless, her FOO issues that included never talking about emotions, and "if you pretend everything is okay, then...everything is okay." This allowed her to do the stupid jump from "we are just friends" to "what BS does not know wont hurt him..."

For the biggest part who we are as a character is are true self during the affair. A revelation of the extent of how broken we are no doubt about it. Still our "true self". If the true self is changed, then boundaries don't become issues because the self worth and confidence are changed to not want to look for outside validation.

I see where you are coming from (I think). I guess I am hung up on "true self". And maybe that hang up is whether her true self was someone who liked cheating or her true self was the person that was so broken that she would cheat. If it is the latter, the evidence is that she did cheat.

So you say (and I am not disagreeing, I am not to 5 years yet) that you can R in around 5 years. I am not sure what that means, thus the reason for Hikingout's question: does that mean that you are able to fully move on? Or does that mean the trauma is gone, but work progresses?

Again, not arguing, just clarifying (learning).

I have to say I have a hard time relating to Zug's answer as well.

It's not that I don't understand that there were things that pre-existed the cheating, and the fact I was able to do it was me and part of who I have always been. But, I think it could have manifested in a lot of escapist behaviors - especially the idea that my dad was an alcoholic and I myself could have those types of genes and turned to that to further numb me. But, I think the problem was I didn't like being numb so the affair was something that manifested high-feelings that felt the opposite of being numb. I don't think the propensity to cheat has always been there - but the propensity to not be authentic enough to hold boundaries for myself has been there always. I still work on that, because I am far from being cured of that part of it.

So, I am with wounded bear here more than zug, but that doesn't mean I am right. I do wonder though if some of it's perception over our own individual experience of cheating. Zug often talks about the fact he hadn't grown up. In my situation, I don't think it was that at all. So, it's really just a matter of seeing what the flaws were and understanding them and working on them. Learning to have commitment and self-discipline towards working on things that hinder us from being our highest self?

I love a good philosophic discussion. Thought I might weigh in with my thoughts on this subject if that is ok. My perspective only of course.

I see our true selves as who we are at any one point of time. A culmination and aggregation of our genetics, experiences and knowledge. We are who we are whether we realize or acknowledge it.

For me it was the discovery that I'm actually naïve and gullible when it comes to those I've invested in emotionally. If you had told me this 3 years ago I would have vehemently denied or believed this. I considered myself fairly intelligent, savvy and by many accounts overly critical. Now I know differently.

These traits do not fit into my vision of myself, yet they have been proven to be true so often that I have come to accept this about myself now. I don't like it but I have tried to make accommodations in my life to balance this fact.

In the end, its not about the traits perceived goodness or badness but whether we are aware and accept them. Then choose what to do about them. The true self is who we are today and the choices we make accordingly. Whew! That was long winded lol

And here I sit much in agreement with zug.

If my spouse took the perspective of woundedbear or HO, I would see that as unsafe. Until she dealt with that and sorted it out, I'd have to keep some distance.

In fire training, we tell our probes that in a crisis, we all sink to our lowest level of training. We tell new folks here to not listen to the words of the WS, observe their actions.

The action indicates that in crisis, the WS sunk and demonstrated their inner core.

It is also important to note that a person can change, but I think it may have been HO that posted that happens when the pain of staying there is worse than the pain of getting out.

[This message edited by jaynelovesvera at 12:43 PM, September 24th (Tuesday)]

I want to embrace what you are saying Jaynelovesvera and really zug for that matter.

I have sorted and resorted, and done everything I can think of up until this point and there is no chance I won't continue to do so for some time to come. I believe I have embraced and engaged with the darkest parts of myself. I have taken accountability 100% for the affair, and have tried on every angle there is that I could get my hands on to read about because I wanted a mirror that I could hold up to really understand all the reasons that I had that could still be hidden from me.

The only reason I don't think there was a propensity for cheating specifically is I was never tempted to do it - ever. For 20+ years I would have told you it wasn't within me to do it. I never even so much as lied to my husband during that time - until the affair.

The ticking time bomb was more about managing my life inauthentically and being so conflict avoidant. Instead of saying "I am not happy I want a divorce", which is what I was really thinking. I latched on to someone else like a teenager who didn't want to break the news to her boyfriend. Instead of being the woman who said "this isn't working we need to do something very different. I am miserable here". I made some feeble attempts of that and I escaped my responsibilities to that from there forward.

And, I think that's the crux of it - I have taken stock of all my character flaws that allowed me to do such a thing and have worked hard on all of them - some of them I will have to be cognizant of for the rest of my life. I also now understand that all the resentments I was carrying were my fault. First, because I was being passive on getting my needs met, and secondly because I didn't ever try and address them.

Having said that, I 100% know that I will not ever cheat again. I have practiced hard at boundaries, conflict avoidance which were my core issues - the things that were exposed as my true self. Zug speaks from a cake-eating standpoint, I speak from an exit affair standpoint. My husband is a tough cookie, I assure you there is no rug sweeping or lack of understanding of what I did, and what I needed to fix.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:09 PM, September 24th (Tuesday)]

I 100% know that I will not ever cheat again.

That's another part of the journey of some WSs that would be a concern to me. The reason being that in my experience, the places where I think I'm strong I don't spend the time on that I should.

This is my perspective in my situation. FTR, my wife was a cake eater somewhat, but also a serial with mostly emotionless infidelity

Anyway, I hear you. And woundedbear. I wasn't trying to say that anyone wasn't doing the work. I was just agreeing with zug. His POV is probably the one I have benefitted from the most. This was especially true in the early days 3.5 years ago.

I think it is a philosophical question of sorts. My philosophy has led me to believe that actions reveal the heart, especially when the action is performed in crisis.

I'm aware that not everyone agrees.

I 100% know that I will not ever cheat again.

That's another part of the journey of some WSs that would be a concern to me. The reason being that in my experience, the places where I think I'm strong I don't spend the time on that I should.

I get what you are saying here. But, the difference is I do spend the quality time I should on it and that is why I know I will not do it again.

To cheat, you have to be in essence morally okay with it. To be morally okay it means you will allow justifications for it. There is no justification for betraying your spouse that carries water. I know that I have made a commitment to my own moral code that I will never do that to him again. Justifications can't get past the type of commitment I am talking about.

In addition, *some* of the pain I feel today is because I broke my own integrity. There is pain for hurting him, there is pain that was the aftermath of the affair. But, breaking my own integrity took me from a path of living right and a life I am proud of to one that was a pure living hell for me and one that I will never be as proud of. This thread is really about THAT pain. Living with the idea that I cheated, I am a cheater. That I hurt my husband in the worst possible way.

I think it's fine for me to say that in the context of the work I am doing and will always continue to do. There is no way I will repeat this as a decision ever again, I have wasted far too much of my husband's life and my life over this non-sense. There is no reward worth those types of risks or consequences again.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:31 PM, September 24th (Tuesday)]

This is the most I've posted here in a long time.

I hope you're right. You almost certainly are because you know you. I don't.

It's an item of concern for anecdotal reasons.

I am familiar with a therapist that specializes in infidelity. He cheated on his wife early in his practice. They spent the years to rebuild.

He felt strong. He knew the tools. He empathized with the pain. He had seen the aftermath. He established boundaries. Everything that is encouraged here.

And he cheated again. His account of it was that he felt strong. He knew he would never, could never do it to her again.

But he did. Ten years after the first time.

His wife possessed grace enough to forgive and rebuild again.

His version of it was that he became complacent in his strength and the longevity of his recovery work.

He is still a therapist that works with the WW of a close friend. He has a great practice. He refuses to say he will never.

Like I said. Anecdotal.

Hiking out, your willingness to be vulnerable is generous and helpful. I would like to ask you why it important to you that you did not see yourself as having the propensity to lie or cheat before your affair? Isn't it immaterial? You did have the propensity, its a fact.

You seem to have done a lot of investigation to your whys which is more than many ws, believe me I wish mine was half as diligent as you. As I've said to my spouse on many occasions that true acceptance is key, and not just saying it but feeling it. To me that would be a point of openness and lack of any defensiveness in your thoughts and actions. I wonder if this is what you are trying to move towards?

I hope you feel this isn't too aggressive it truly is coming from a place of wanting to help you figure this out. Full disclosure, it seems to help me figure out my own crappy situation too

I do get it. And, I get why saying "never" or that "I am safe" can truly be an arrogant thing to say.

"complacent in his strength and the longevity of his recovery work"

If I am an alcholic, I may always want to drink far long after I stopped. And, one day someone puts a drink in front of you and you think "I can handle it". You forget the pain it brought, you forget how quickly one drink becomes another, becomes another. And before you know it you have taken that slide all the way down again. I get it.

I guess it is kind of like when I said I never had a propensity to cheat, but then I did - so at some point I had that propensity or it wouldn't have happened. And this dove tails into what timespent is asking.

And, it's a fair statement and assessment of both of you.

When I say I never had the propensity - I guess I just mean before I never really looked at other men that way. I never had inappropriate boundaries or conversations with them. I never fantasized about other men. These all seem probably hard to believe, but I didn't. I had a lot of empathy, I wasn't selfish. And, you think, well you had an affair under these conditions where you had led a pretty pristine life. And, I had, and it did happen. So, of course one would be incredulous as to living in a world where it was so unlikely to happen and then it did - so why not again?

That's when I would probably just say - no one changes for anyone else. If that alcoholic isn't drinking because of someone else, if that cheater is doing it to keep his marriage - whether it's for children, religious reasons about not divorcing, not having to split money or lose things...then it's going to be whiteknuckling to some degree. A relapse is going to occur.

For me, it's not about anyone else - it's about my relationship with myself. My view of myself. Understanding how deep my needs are when it comes to upholding my own moral integrity. When the reasons are as strong internally as they are externally I think that's when you aren't whiteknuckling anything. You are choosing this is the way you want to spend your life. This is the person you want to be.

Sure, I wanted to keep my marriage, and I am very remorseful over what I did to my husband. And, I hated the pain we lived in for all those years. But, that can't be the only sustenance for what we build our foundations on. In the antidotal story that Jayne told - that man didn't have a strengthened character. He was not changed from the experience. He was holding onto the external reasons, not disappointing his wife, etc.

There are many BS on this site who say they would never cheat. And, I believe most of them. I was a wife who believed and said I would never cheat. I get you will never be able to say who will or who won't. But, cheating was not my propensity. My propensity was for avoiding hard things. Avoiding reality. Not coping well in a major life crisis. Feeling I had to earn the love of others rather than believing I was worth loving just for who I am. Not seeing my worth enough to uphold my own integrity. We change because we WANT to change, and the reasons have to include a good number of selfish ones. I simply want to be proud of my life and who I am and how I conduct myself. I have disappointed myself most of all.

I don't know if that illuminates it better or worse. Certainly, Jayne has given me no reason to need to convince him as he has said I know myself, but I went into most of that to try and answer timespent's question.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:15 PM, September 24th (Tuesday)]

I think you are on the right track when you say its about your relationship with yourself. This about your coming to terms with how you see yourself.

I don't think dwelling on your moral integrity is helpful, you know who you are now. You were on a path and went down a slippery slope and ended up stumbling and dragging your partner down with you but you got up helped your spouse get back up and are now struggling to feel you deserve to be on this new path.

You do. I think(maybe?) you are dealing with the severe disappointment in yourself. I don't know you obviously but I can feel your struggle. I tell my husband regularly (he's definitely not as emotionally in tune as you are) that the disappointment you feel is a good thing! It means you are on the right track of holding yourself responsible for your actions in the past, present and future. Keep going. If I'M off track please feel free to ignore

Thank you timespent. I think we understand each other. Integrity is what you do even when no one is looking. People who want to live with themselves uphold their integrity.

I appreciate the kind words, I logically understand that redemption is possible, and life moves on. But, as you understand I emotionally struggle with that. It's probably as you said - it serves a purpose.

Hikingout,

You don't just have to love yourself to get healthy but you have to accept there comes a time that you have to start trusting yourself again.

This is never more true than when you have come as far as we have. Do you love yourself enough to trust in the work you did, the changes you made and your own healing? Do you love yourself enough to trust in the person you are today?

But in order to say yes, I had to let go of all my fears and self-doubt. Which is a lot easier to say than do. What gave me the courage was the trust I have for my BH and the trust that he has now given me. If he believes in me, then shouldn't I trust in his beliefs? Because what message would I be sending him if I didn't?

With the trust and support of my BH, I am taking a big step forward next month. I will be attending the Dallas/Fort Worth g2g by myself and I don't live anywhere near Texas. He will be out of the country with our boys and he believes that it will be good for me to do something for myself and healthy to do on my own. So I invited myself and booked my flight and hotel. It is a little scary and exciting at the same time. But just knowing that he completely trusts me to do this and really wanted me to, is all the proof of how far we've come, of how far I have come and it sure does feel good.

Zug,

For the biggest part who we are as a character is are true self during the affair. A revelation of the extent of how broken we are no doubt about it. Still our "true self". If the true self is changed, then boundaries don't become issues because the self worth and confidence are changed to not want to look for outside validation.

I am going to strongly disagree and maybe it is because my A had nothing to do with outside validation or boundary issues in the slippery slope context. But to me, you are saying that we have to become someone we're not.

Now I am a hugger, all of our friends and family are huggers and in our part of the country, huggers are considered normal, non-huggers, not so much. I am also outgoing, friendly, a little sarcastic and a talker with a wicked sense of humor

So when I was working on myself early on, I tried to become more reserved, subdued and almost passive to tone down my personality. When I asked my BH how he wanted me to interact with men and what boundaries he needed, like not hugging our male friends and family, this was his response.

"I don't want you to change your personality or who you really are, I just want you to fix yourself and be a better version that won't have another A." He also told me that he loved me for being me, that he wanted the old me back and to stop being what I thought a good, remorseful wife should be, because he missed hearing me laugh and talking all the time. He told me to hug away and just fix my shit. He has also called me a special kind of crazy, but I'm his special kind of crazy and his life would be boring without it.

While you may have had to change your true self to fix your boundary issues and find your confidence and self-worth, not every WS is going to and not every BS would want them to.

woundedbear,

Thank you for posting here on the wayward side. Your thoughts and perspective are very much appreciated. You are very similar to my BH in many ways and to read your replies has been an insightful and a helpful look into the mind of my own BH.

I think a WS who says "never" is, what my Grandma would say "buying trouble". Most WS said "never" before the A, too. And yet.....

As much as this may sound unfair, or not being cognizant of the work HO and other WS do, I think any WS who says 'never' is dangerous - for the reasons already set out here. My IC has said she's had plenty of patients who "do the work", say they would "never" but find themselves right back in an A (and she's also talked of BS who do the same thing). Aside from the anecdotal (Lord knows just reading the false Rs and repeat As described on SI provides more than enough on this front), one can also go 'lies, damn lies, and statistics', as I believe there is statistical evidence to support the likelihood of repeat (the plethora of threads on SI on the issue become a BS v WS face off that doesn't seem very productive or healing). Granted, there is always a % of those who never repeat - and I suspect damn near every WS is convinced they will be in THAT % .

With the possible exception of a drunken ONS, the thoughts and behaviors that go into ANY affair are pretty much identical to those of an alcoholic or addict: lying to one's self, rationalizations, lying to others, unhealthy coping mechanisms, filling internal voids, etc. Heck, there are plenty of WS who speak about the "high" they get from the A - and the chemical releases from it all - JUST like an addict. Those in AA don't say they will "NEVER" drink again, no matter how much work or change they've done. Instead, and for good reason, they say "one day at a time" which acknowledges the human capacity for relapse from complacency and reminds of the DAILY obligation to fulfill their spiritual and other needs.

My WH is on the serial/SA spectrum, so I recognize I may be projecting here. And I recently learned that a relative who had an A close to 30 years ago, had repeated the behavior 10-20 years after their "healing" and complete R (and they did R again - in that M, the BW was the therapist) - another "anecdote" that hit close to home.

To me a WS saying "never" is a problematic stance. The title of the thread is "living with it" and it seems to me the potential to re-offend (or relapse) is part of that.

I understand what you are saying gmc- but never is a commitment you make to yourself. As a non ws I never thought I would do it either but this was built on a notion that didn’t have depth. When bs here say “ I would never cheat” as many often do say - the reason I believe them is *partially* based on the fact they experienced infidelity. The rest of it is based on the reason they state as to why: they could not live with themselves. I don’t think I ever realized how hard it is to live with yourself- but I do know now. I have no doubts about my statement, it’s not something I crave. What I crave more than anything is to live my life the right way. I think people can permanently learn their lessons, why would I entertain the other track of thought? It would be unhealthy of me to say “I might cheat again” because it means I doubt my commitment to myself or the foundation I work all the time to build on. I

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:24 AM, September 25th (Wednesday)]

I also think there is a difference between these statements:

I will never cheat again, I got this.

I will never cheat again AND I will be vigilant.

If I said

I might cheat again but I don’t want to so I will be vigilent - how strong of a commitment does it sound like I made there? I cringe even writing it that way.

I also think I will never cheat again because of how much I hurt my spouse is not strong enough on its own.

I will not cheat again, I will always be vigilant. I want to be a person I can live with and be proud of and I would never want to hurt anyone else like that again. That is the statement I am making. For me I believe it is a healthy one. My commitment is strong, I don’t think I have to shy away from saying that.

Follow the river,

I wanted to be back at my computer to respond, because I wanted to give your response a lot of thought and kind of riff off what you are saying. Thank you for responding, you are another one that is further out from me and I will take all the feedback I can get from you guys.

This is never more true than when you have come as far as we have. Do you love yourself enough to trust in the work you did, the changes you made and your own healing? Do you love yourself enough to trust in the person you are today?

Yes. I do trust myself in the context of infidelity. And, I can give myself earnest and deserved credit for the work I have done, as it's been constant and relentless and vast. I can say that with a straight face. I still work on the self love aspects. I have done a lot towards personal boundaries. When I talk about that, I don't mean "with men" or whatever - my boundaries as you are probably aware is more of protecting my time, energy, needs, etc. That is the boundary work that I have had to work very hard on - that I deserve rest. I deserve to say my preferences, they matter. I work on these things still because there are times where I think there is slippage there. I think there are lots of times "regular folk" say yes when they mean no, because we all have things we feel obligated to do. So, sorting that sometimes gets a little confusing, but overall I am working on being the best me and I can take pride in that.

And, I get why you ask that question - if I focus on those things I feel the most positivity. But, I am still struggling with feeling positive but still feeling guilt? And, as foreverlabeled was able to articulate - it's sometimes obsessive and overwhelming. I think she may be right in that it still may serve a purpose, and if so it's useful, but if not it's something I have to let go of. I don't know how to really tell that at this point, but it's not coming from a place of logic really - it's more like my logical brain can see what you are pointing out to me - but my emotions don't yet match. I hope that makes sense? But, like I said there is some balance, and I feel happy overall. I had a few weeks leading into this post and a few others that were terrible, but I think I am going to have those cycles - and I can only hope they will grow further apart and last shorter periods....because I do believe it when Foreverlabeled said it's grieving. But, I also know that some of it is my old friend perfectionism, and self flagellation.

I am sure all that is clear as mud. But, this is kind of still mid-sort-out.

But in order to say yes, I had to let go of all my fears and self-doubt. Which is a lot easier to say than do. What gave me the courage was the trust I have for my BH and the trust that he has now given me. If he believes in me, then shouldn't I trust in his beliefs? Because what message would I be sending him if I didn't?

And I think this is the crux of some of the ongoing - conflict(?)- not sure if it's conflict but opposing views between H and I. And, I get what you are saying here completely. Oldwounds recently said something very similar to me. It's not that I am choosing to disrespect my husband, but rather still working to put my arm around myself and let go of some of those feelings. It's as you said - easier said than done.

Sometimes, like this past weekend we spend time together and feel so close - closer than I have ever felt to him in our entire marriage, and that burns it off. I can be in the moment, I enjoy it thoroughly. But, I also know that you have to watch that and not get your feelings from someone else. It's more just a feeling of "I am on the right path" and trusting in those moments that I will get to my destination - being able to shed more of the guilt and grief?

With the trust and support of my BH, I am taking a big step forward next month. I will be attending the Dallas/Fort Worth g2g by myself and I don't live anywhere near Texas. He will be out of the country with our boys and he believes that it will be good for me to do something for myself and healthy to do on my own. So I invited myself and booked my flight and hotel. It is a little scary and exciting at the same time. But just knowing that he completely trusts me to do this and really wanted me to, is all the proof of how far we've come, of how far I have come and it sure does feel good.

That is so wonderful. I hope you have an amazing time!